A crooked logger

[Kansas]

This is the kind of thing that makes my blood boil. It reflects badly on all the honest loggers out there. Sadly, it only takes a few instances like this to get all landowners scared to death to allow logging on their land.

Got a call today from a caretaker of a ranch property. Seems earlier this summer he discovered logging going on at a far part of the ranch. Only reason he discovered it is because the logger cut a 4 strand barbed wire fence and took 13 walnut trees off the property. Then he didn't bother to put the fence back up and the cattle got out. The adjacent landowner got paid for all the logs, but still hasn't turned over the money for those 13 trees. I guess the logger took some cedar as well. I went and looked at it late yesterday afternoon with another logger. Some of these logs were veneer. But, they have been laying since mid summer. Nothing more than saw logs now. The caretaker was offered 900 for the 13 trees, of which he still hasn't got paid. I wish he had called as soon as he found out it happened. Now the logs aren't worth much, although we aren't sure which of the 13 trees they are, because they are piled up with the neighbors. We were going to try to match up stumps with the logs, but ran out of daylight. We think we know who bought the logs, because there is only one company out here that will buy veneer logs and leave them lay for a year or two. We also suspect we know what logger is really behind it.

[albirk]

something of the same happend to the guy were i cut firewood but the logger cut his fence cut 4walnut 2oak and 5 very nice cherrys didnt fix the fence 2 cows got hit on the road 16 year old boy that work for all the farmer to buy a nice truck (that was a total loss) and the logger told the farmer he turned the cattle out to soon.
needles to say a big law suit between farmer and logger and the third party because it was his fence that didnt no his trees were logged after 6 months it all got settled logger went to jail on about 10 charges and the 2 farmers bought the you man a new truck  payed med. bills

[chevytaHOE5674]

If the logger cut the fence that shows intent. If i was the landowner who had the trees stolen from me, I would find a forester and lawyer experienced in timber theft and go after the logger for all that you can get. In many states you can go after triple damages for intentional timber theft.

[Ron Wenrich]

The logs are still there?  Damages would be the difference in value between veneer and sawlog value since part of the damage can be recovered.  If the logs were removed, its often hard to determine whether its veneer value or not.  I've been on that kind of case before.

But, there's always other damages that can be accessed.  The fence, the cost of herding the cattle, and any types of damage to the woodlot.  Punitive damages are up to the court.

To match the logs to the butt, I would cut a cookie off the log and match it up.  Take pictures. 

[northwoods1]

For estimating the value of the trees that were taken I would take a lot of pictures and try to get a good estimate if in doubt be liberal with the value. I would at least ask for 2x the actual value ++ whatever other damage there was. I'd just confront the logger or mill or other landowner directly with this info and request the paycheck, seek help if they don't cooperate. If it is a clear case of timber theft and there are no property boundry issues the guilty party in a case like this when confronted , if they have any sense at all, most times will simply pay up.

[Kansas]

I should know more today. We know the logger sold the logs on 50/50 shares. If its the company we think it is that bought them, while they may do a lousy job picking up their logs, I believe them to be honest.
One thing about Kansas, most all of this land was settled in the mid 1800's. Virtually all of it was surveyed laid out at right angles divided into sections or parts of a section. This fence was cut 50 ft from a cornerpost on a straight fence.

[Phorester]

Check the laws in Kansas about timber theft, damages to be paid, etc.,  and go from there.  This is no longer a logging problem, it is now a legal problem. If the property owner is not familiar with this legal process, he needs to talk to a lawyer.  Hopefully one that can suggest, for free,  whether he needs to hire him to pursue it, or if the damages that could be awarded the landowner are not worth legal action. 

[DanG]

In an obvious case of blatant trespass and theft like this, is there any reason the logger shouldn't face criminal charges?  It looks like breaking & entering and grand theft to me.

[Autocar]

I have heard of timber theft but not in my area,but here if you get across a line fence you may have to pay two and half times what the tree was worth plus any damage. I already twice in my career have cut a few trees across a line fence, most fences around here are rotted down and I take a rake and try to locate wires that are covered up by leaves and earth. But when this has happened I go to the land owner and work something out with them. So far it has been just pay a fair price for the tree. In river bottoms I try to get a idea where the line is from the owner then stay back twenty yards from that.

[Kansas]

I agree completely that  the guy ought to be arrested. Here is the problem though. Here in Kansas, there aren't that many timber sales that take place. Law enforcement knows nothing about logs. Being logs don't have a serial number  on them, neither the cops or prosecuting attorneys want to mess with it. They do not understand timber. It just isn't important enough for them, or happen often enough, for them to take the time to learn.

It turns out it was indeed the company that bought the logs that we thought it was. We did encourage the caretaker to contact law enforcement. The logger that went with me to look at the logs got the number and contacted the logger that cut the fence. He claimed he had permission to cut them. Of course, being it was on shares, the timber buyer would have cut a check to the landowner that the logs were taken from. Which of course, did not happen.

[overtime]

In my state they scale the tree by the stump and it is all top grade select or veneer and triple the stumpage then it goes on from there.

[missouri_logger]

yepp that kinda stuff happens round here quite often its sad for us honest loggers there are to many hobby loggers what i call em out here who do what they think they can do what county was these cut in and your right the law out here has no experience on any timber theft so who knows what you will get done on this kinda sad really

[WDH]

In Georgia, there are two conditions.  The first is Timber Trespass where trees are improperly cut beyond a property line.  It might be that the line was not marked or there was simple negligence.  In that case, up to treble the timber damage may be awarded.

The second condition is Criminal Trespass.  That is where the theft was premeditated and intentional.  It is hard to prove, but the court can award any amount of damages. 

[Ron Scott]

A lawyer familiar with timber trespass and a certified forester are needed; the forester to determine "all the resource damages" and the lawyer to sue the logger and all involvrd associates for the damages.

Both criminal charges and civil damages may be involved depending upon the criminal intent and negligence proven.

[SwampDonkey]

When timber gets "hot" around here there are a lot of absantee owner woodlots that get hit and also adjacent farms that but onto a deep running neighboring woodlot can often be hit. We've had wood stolen all around us over the years. The only winners are the lawyers. I've never seen a successful prosecution. One forester in NS was ripped off on his woodlot, he pursued it and won his case but the lawyer bill was worth more than the awarded damages. He said he pursued it on principle, regardless of cost. This is why these thieving bums keep on being thieves. I know one guy that was suppose to be buying and cutting stumpage on an absantee woodlot and he cut it plus on every neighboring woodlot and had to cross our land to get in and out. Across our field to boot, on which the SOB made 3 or 4 roads when dad said he was to use one and stick to it. Around here the victim has to prove they own the land besides being ripped off. You pull a gun and you will be in jail.

[Ron Wenrich]

What's the alternative?  I guess you could allow them to cut and steal and not prosecute, but that would only encourage the activity.  At least, in civil cases you can get your attorney fees as part of your damages. 

The biggest problems I have ever seen is the prosecuted logger has no assets.  They're usually in someone else's name, especially those large assets like a house or truck.  Then, there is no way of collecting, even if you win the case.

[Autocar]

Ron your right about assets, I remember a company that bought timber off a logger from Michigan and they cut it only to find out the guy didn't even own it. In the end they paid the landowner a higher amount then took the logger to court. They ended up with a old rubber tired loaded and a cabover tractor and a log trailer that looked like it was rolled a number of times. I don't think anyone was happy in the end.

[SwampDonkey]

Doing nothing is the norm when you have nothing to pay lawyers with besides living day to day. 

[Phorester]

In my 35+ year career as a forester, the number one problem I have seen with forest management is property lines.  Even today, I still find landowners who do not know where their lines are.

4 points; They need to be legally located, permanently and prominently marked, those marks maintained throughout the years, and checked often. You can still have problems with trespass or theft, but if the lines are well marked, your case is much easier to prove in court if it comes to that.  In Kansas's post it sounds like the lines in that part of that ranch weren't checked often, since it was in a remote part of the property.  Not saying that this would have prevented the trees from being stolen - the logger could have come in the day after the lines were checked - but it is just good property management to protect the landowner's asset to do these 4 things with property lines.

[Ron Scott]

Ditto! I will not prepare and harvest a timber sale unless the landowner has  a registered survey and can show me their property corners and boundarys.

[SwampDonkey]

Yes a survey with proper marking is a must. BUT, the crook will often times remove the marked trees in his operation. And that happens a lot. We had to survey one of our woodlots twice and remark on second growth because every line tree was cut. 

[northwoods1]

Ditto! I will not prepare and harvest a timber sale unless the landowner has  a registered survey and can show me their property corners and boundarys.

That must really simplify your job

I would say all of that is unnecessary if adjoining landowners agree on the boundries. Here if there is an old boundry, i.e. and old fence line or corner posts, that is considered an appropriate boundry to go by. Even if one landowner doesn't agree, and even if it isn't actually the correct line, it is up to the land owner who disputes the line to obtain the survey and prove the old line is not correct.

Also, here where I live trespass laws are really geared to protect the landowner. You don't need your property fenced or even posted, it is totally up to anyone tramping around int he woods to know where they are at all times and whose land they are on, if your on someone elses land it is totally your fault, the landowner has no responsibilities in regard to making sure there boundries are marked or posted.

[Ron Scott]

Especially when the adjoining landowner's don't agree on the property line.

We have landowner's that don't even know or talk to one another, many absentee landowners owners, changing landownerships, land fragmentations,etc. and my years of experience as an expert witness in  timber trespass cases, indicates that it is the best practice to know the "legal" boundarys before any timber is marked and cut.

[Sawyerfortyish]

Let me understand this you see the stumps and the cut fence and the stolen logs in a pile:o. I think thanksgiving day I would have rolled in there and recovered my stolen property. Isn't possesion like 4/5 of the law. Let them come to me and argue that the logs I now have are theres. Heres the stumps on my property and heres my logs. Just because you don't see and visit every bit of your land regularly doesn't mean you don't care for it or not own it. Since the logs don't have serial numbers and you now have them in your possesion the burden to prove they arn't yours falls on someone else.

[paul case]

for the ones that do steal and give the rest of us a bad name, i think they should have their sack nailed to a stump but that would be a waste of a good stump.  pc

[Dougofthenorth]

When I lived on a farm in Alberta in the 70's, my friend had his parent's farm that he only went to on weekends & summer holidays.

Some guys took down 2 very large rare fir trees in front of the house.
They cut off only the 2 tops for xmass trees!
His neighbour called it in & the 2 were caught on the scene & charged with theft, had their truck & equipement seized.
Cost those 2 thiefs a criminal record & a few 10's of thousands in lost truck & equipment. 

I don't know if nowadays it would be the same.