How to modify rims to use dual tires

[5akman]

This question is not logging related but skidder related. Moderator, please move to a different topic area if the question is not appropriate.

I work summers in Alaska as a commercial fisherman. I've been using a big wheel tractor to launch my skiff and this summer I found out the tractor does not have posi like I thought it did when I buried it in the 1 1/2" minus "marbles" up to the frame!

I just purchased a 440C to try out. The use will be launching a 3500lb skiff on a tandem axle trailer up/down a 20-25 degree slope of the 1 1/2" marbles. The other tractor was about 19000lbs with 23.1x26 tires. The rig sunk but made it very slowly up the marble pile all but the one time. I'd like to modify the JD 440 rims (I have the 18.4 rims with bald tires and a source for 4 more 18.4's, and some 23.1 JD rims that I will need to find tires for if I choose to use them) so that I can run duals on both axles. I know that I'll have to add a spacer on the steering stops to prevent issues with the 23.1's if I use them. Is there some way to modify the rim to add the second tire at each corner?

The use is minimal each year. I only use the tractor to go up/down the marble pile a few times each week for a 6 week season. I don't think I'll put more than a few miles of actual travel distance on the rig in an entire summer. Its about a mile drive off the beach where a low boy will move the rig to my off season storage area so I'm not too concerned about tire/axle wear etc.

Has anyone done a modification to rims to allow the use of duals, if so, pass along the info!

Lance
www.alldrinsalmon.com

[Gary_C]

My only experience with duals is with farm tractors and there most of the equipment is readily available. There were many farmers that worked with their local farm tire store to put duals and even triples on farm tractors that were not made for duals but there is not much work with that anymore.

In general there are two methods to add duals on those tractors. First involves a axle mounted adapter so you can just bolt on another rim onto the adapter. That usually requires a long shaft tractor rear end so you can mount the adapter for the right spacing. The other method is with band or clamp type duals. There the rim has a ring welded in a grove in the rim that fits in a grove in the inside wheel and then clamps that hold the assembly on. The clamps look like threaded rod with hooks on the end. Probably the band type rims would be the easiest ones to fabricate as you just need a ring of the right diameter that will fit inside the rim on your existing wheels.

There are a couple of things to be aware of with duals. First is the axle strong enough to add duals. There have been many axles broken by adding duals as that puts a lot of twist out on that axle and many rear ends were not made for that. Second is your steering going to be able to handle those added tires. And also as you noted, there may be interference between the front and rear tires on an articulated machine. For that reason it may not be advisable to put duals on both axles. Just put them on the axle that carries the most weight.

[treefarmer87]

i think they have longer lug bolts for two rims i guess

[Bobus2003]

I would imagine you could use parts from a Farm tractor to run duals.. I have seen many pictures and 1 machine in person (JD440) with duals.. looked like a easy setup.. plus the new machines are sent from the factory with duals or can have duals added so i'm sure a dealer could help ya out

[northwoods1]

I'd like to see this slope that your needing to get your skiff up and down. How far do you have to actually move it every time? Just above the tide line when you not fishing? And the slope is all small stone? Maybe you could lay some type of mat down to travel on for a distance. Maybe you could take advantage of the winch somehow 3500# is not a lot of weight but rigging up duals like that on a such a small skidder, i don't know if that would be such a good idea. Just moving up to 23.1s' would really lower that machines ground pressure.

[Gary_C]

I'd like to see this slope that your needing to get your skiff up and down. How far do you have to actually move it every time? Just above the tide line when you not fishing? And the slope is all small stone?

Here is a link to a picture on his web site. There's a lot more and a very interesting project. Commercial fishing in Alaska without the hazards of a big boat.

http://www.alldrinsalmon.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=393

[GRANITEstateMP]

A lot of very interesting photos.  I like the up close and personal photos of the Moose.

Matt

[northwoods1]

The beach pics look like somewhere between Kenai and Homer. That 440 c should easily launch that skiff over the beach in the pics I saw plus you would have the blade to level of that stone. Still think you could use the winch to good effect somehow if needed but I don't see why that skidder shouldn't pull that boat over that stone. With the skidder you could hook on and if you started to get stuck just drop winch, move ahead, winch up, repeat. That is what you would so in the woods if you were pulling wood through a hard spot. That is a handy looking little forklift you have there. If those pics are between Kenai & homer than I have been out on that water looking for halibut, found them too

[5akman]

Thanks for the comments guys.

My fishing sites are on the East Forelands point in Nikiski, about 10 miles north of Kenai.

The greatest distance traveled to tow the skiff up/down would be about 200' one direction. For years now I"ve just skidded the skiff up/down without a trailer. This really limits the time to do this, as at low tide I have bowling ball size rocks to contend with and it sounds horrible pushing that skiff across the rocks. I'm hoping the new tandem axle boat trailer with some very wide turf type tires will allow me to use the 440C to launch/retrieve the skiff.

I bought 14, 5' x 8' heavy galvanized plates last year. I layed the plates end to end down the slope. The trip down over the plates was fine but coming back up the wheels slipped on the plates, then the wheels slipped off the plates and two of them jammed up between the tires. As I tried to get out, I sunk the rig and thats when I discovered that I did not have posi on those Rockwell planetary axles. I had to hire a backhoe to dig me out. I believe my mistake was not fastening the plates together, end to end by bolting or chaining. I also think I'd have to put some type of cleats on the plates to give the tires something to grip as the plates are very smooth. I also thought of laying out some chain link fence with the hope that it would bury itself a few inches in the rocks and would then support the weight of the tractor.

I could try the single 23.1's but was thinking the extra floatation of the duals would be very beneficial. All of us beach fisherman comment that its a real bummer to get the biggest tractor on the beach stuck!

Lance

[treefarmer87]

heres a good example

[Ironwood]

Gempler's online has dual tire hardware that may be adapted to your skidder.


 Ironwood

[oldseabee]

You might think about swamp tires on single rims size: 67.34 X 25 Below is a link to a picture of an old Pettibone skidder brochure
with the swamp tires on it. I think some places in Canada use them in the Muskeg, I know that a lot of swamp loggers used them down here. They were an option on most John Deere skidders also. Could maybe find a worrn set on a junk skidder somewhere. biggest cost would be shipping to Alaska. The big problem with duals is that stones get jammed between the tires and sometimes you have to deflate in order to get them out, if you leave them in they will eat through the sidewalls in a hurry.

http://www1.elmia.se/wood/classic/pdf/Pettibonemaster7swamplunnare1968eng.pdf

[Okrafarmer]

A company called Unverferth always made clamp-on duals for farm tractors, specializing in tractors that were never meant to have duals in particular. They used to claim they could put duals on anything that had wheels. They said, "If your grain bin (showing pictures of the huge stationary type) needed duals, we could build them for you."

If you need assistance from a mechanical aspect, try Jim's Equipment Repair in Anchorage. My good friend Aven works there and he is a top-notch diesel mechanic. His company will also send him or other mechanics to you if need be so you don't have to take your equipt to Anchorage.

[northwoods1]

Thanks for the comments guys.
My fishing sites are on the East Forelands point in Nikiski, about 10 miles north of Kenai.
I could try the single 23.1's but was thinking the extra floatation of the duals would be very beneficial. All of us beach fisherman comment that its a real bummer to get the biggest tractor on the beach stuck!

Lance

That is a real interesting website you have the photos really make me miss that country. particularly the one with the net stretched out along the beach and it is just loaded with salmon

I understand why you might be thinking of duels, but I still think it isn't necessary. It would limit the versatility of having a little skidder like that. A small skidder like that can be used for 1001 purposes but not if it has a big tire/wheel setup like that.  Plus it is just more to maintain and break/go wrong. Just trying to think of a simpler way I guess. For the short distance you need to launch the boat the skidder should do it for you, especially if you can use the blade to level out those burms that occur back when your coming on to or off the beach. That looks like where you were having problems, getting over them isn't it? Improving the grade where you need to be traveling over to get the boat in & out sounds like another better more logical solution to me. Instead of a steel matt why not try ties chained together I have done that to cross wet areas. What you need is me there to show you how to run that skidder and not get it stuck, I'd charge only a small fee payable in salmon or halibut. 

[5akman]

Northwoods1,
I usually pay to have a back hoe or a guy with a D8 come to the site each year to grade out the debris that comes off the bluff each winter and cut me a shoot through the marble pile to make launching a bit easier. The problem is the tide. At its worse, we get a week or so of tides going from a -4 to a +23. Yes, you're ready that correct, 27' vertical feet of tide movement in 6 hours!  Couple that with any kind of wind/swell and the water has its way with the beach. If I had a chute cut, its gone. If I had my steel plates left on the slope, they're buried. The problem is not insurmountable (spelling?), its just difficult!

Regarding the tires to drive over. Would I just use car tires that are bolted or chained together as opposed to chainlink or marsh mat? Would I just run two tire widths up the slope or would I need two rows of two tires side by side? Interesting and very cheap ($$$) concept. I could even use the skidder to pull the row of tires up above the tide line if the weather was bad and I thought the waves might bury the tires and put them back in place when needed.............

Lance

[5akman]

I'm giving some more thought to the larger tired singles. Where would I find some really wide JD rims? Currently I have the 18.4's originals and some 23.1 x 26's that I can buy from a buddy (without tires) for 200.00 each. Could I have the centers cut out of the 18.4's and welded into a larger width rim or should I keep looking for a larger rim that fits the JD bolt pattern. Any links to sites with used rims/tires would be appreciated!

Lance

[bushmechanic]

You may have saved yourself some cash if you just purchased some non-spins and put them in those Rockwell rear ends,seeing that you only use it a short time each year.

[5akman]

Non spins? Tell me more about those.  The current rig is a late 1950's MRS (Mississippi Road Service) A90. It has a Cummins C160 (470 cu in, 160 hp) with a 10 speed RoadRanger trans. Its got some major blow by and needs a good shot of go juice to get operational every morning. I rebuilt the axles a few years back before shipping it up from CA. Its got a rear steer axle but someone has removed the hyd valve needed to steer the back end. Its now got a turning radius of a small aircraft carrier!

I added the fork lift mast on the front. I can lift the 4000lb concrete blocks that we use for anchors off the back of my flat bed truck but I can't drive with the block on the tines as it just wants to nose over. I could add some weight to the back end or fill the rears with water.

Last summer I blew a steering hose while on the beach. I was able to limp it up above high tide but had to wait a day or two to get a new hose made. Not that the 440C won't have issues but I feel like spending $$$ on the old 50's rig is now worth it any more. Unless of course those non-spins you mention may be a cheap fix................

Lance

[Gary_C]

Round rock just has to be the worst nightmare of a material for a road. It will not stay in place and gives you very little traction because it will roll so easily. You can't compact it especially with the tides that will wash most smaller material out from between the rocks. About the only way to really stabilize it would be to spread a layer of concrete over it and let it set up.

So I am not really convinced that duals or even wide tires will be the answer as they work best when flotation or ground compaction is the problem. You can only wish you could compact the rocks but it isn't going to happen. And I suspect that duals will just roll more rock out and just make bigger holes when you are pulling a load up the beach.

So maybe the best answer is some type of mat that you could anchor at the top and then roll up out of the way easily. Maybe some conveyor belting or chain link fencing. I doubt that road fabric would stand up to the rocks and equipment. You could use these timber mats but that would be a lot of weight to move around much. and it would float away with the tides.

Too bad you can't test out the dual idea before you spend a bunch of money on tires and rims. Perhaps a tracked machine would be better. One of these six or eight wheel forwarders with tracks might be just the thing but they are not cheap.

[Okrafarmer]

Or check out those track machines they use up there on the oil fields. I don't remember exactly what they're called, but I know they come in different sizes and used ones are available to the public. I don't know who would sell you one right off hand but again my buddy Aven knows about them and I think I saw one there at Jim's Equipment Repair in Anchorage when I was there 4 years ago.

[aksawyer]

We built a set for a guy down in Dutch Harbor who used it to drag fishing boats up on ground to repair them.I was working as a welder for the fish boats boats and was there with very little equipment.We found some old truck rims(20nch off of a garbage truck).We cut out the center, bolt pattern area,cut a ring that matched the skidder pattern welded one to each bead of the truck rim.Than we bolted them together.Aksawyer

[TessiersFarm]

On a farm I worked at we had an old Massey Fergusen Combine 2 wheel drive, we just used 2 tires and rims slightly smaller than the inner tires (I don't remember the exact sizes but same rim diameter) and used 6 hardened all thread to bolt the 2 together.  We drilled the center of the rims close to the outer part.  We got the all threads from a heavy truck garage that made U bolts and got them before they were bent.  When on hard ground the outer tires never got any real load but on soft ground they really helped out a lot.  Might work for your application.

[5akman]

To keep costs reasonable, I was actually starting to think along those lines. If I could mount the 23.1's inboard and then the 18.4's outboard somehow, I'd end up with what I need. The 18.4's wouldn't have much load on them until the bigger inner tires had sunk a bit in the marbles. Now just to figure out how to adapt the wheels. Your all thread idea might work but those are some big tires to keep in perfect rotating alignment..............

Lance

[Okrafarmer]

To keep costs reasonable, I was actually starting to think along those lines. If I could mount the 23.1's inboard and then the 18.4's outboard somehow, I'd end up with what I need. The 18.4's wouldn't have much load on them until the bigger inner tires had sunk a bit in the marbles. Now just to figure out how to adapt the wheels. Your all thread idea might work but those are some big tires to keep in perfect rotating alignment..............
Lance

I think you may be kidding there, but I wouldn't worry too much about perfect rotating alignment for your application. 

[5akman]

Yep, I was joking! You'd probably have to be running down the pavement to see/notice if they were off by much.

[rick f]

From what I see in your pictures of the truck hauling the boat up from the sea, I would make a hitch for the blade of the skidder.  Push the boat trailer down the slope, load the boat, then backup to the road/ top of beach. Set a couple od 400# deadmen into the beach if needed. Should the skidder start to chatter in the stones hook the winch to the first deadman winch in then rehook to the second up by the road. I make it sound easy , maybe it would work maybe not. This sugestion maybe worth what you payed for it .

Good luck

[5akman]

The deadman idea has merit, especially if I run up the marble pile backwards. I do have a 4" post buried about 5' deep at the top of the pile that I could connect the winch to.

Keep the ideas coming, I have 10 months to dream this stuff up and ponder possible solutions and then about 7 weeks to try to make all of it work!

Lance