urban sourced logs

[tomb]

Urban sourced logs have been very good to me this year!
  I finally found a local tree service to work with me.  And so far I have been very pleased.  Here is the latest log from them.  Its a large (at least to me) walnut log,  30" diameter x 10'.




If I am counting correctly, this tree is over 120 years old.  Had to dig out one small copper nail in the butt end, other then that it was clear.  Not to bad for a city tree that had to come down! 
According to the board calculater I expect to get around 400 bd. ft. out of it!   

[pasbuild]

Thats a dandy

[Ron Scott]

Nice!

[Okrafarmer]

We're urban mercenary harvesters, too. We cut out the middle man-- we do the take-downs, and we are supposed to be sawmilling. . . . . . 
When am I going to get a chance to saw all the logs we've harvested in the last couple months? I added a couple small cherry logs to the stack today.

[metalspinner]

That's a beauty!

[tomb]

Well I couldnt wait anymore, I called the sawyer to find out how the milling went.
Last year I delivered a hickory, walnut, white oak, and two maples to him to be milled. 
He uses a solar kiln for drying, so it will be a while before I see any of the lumber.  Unfortunately more then half of the walnut and maple had metal in it.   What are you to do, if there isnt any staining as a telltale sign?  Im a bit bummed .
Unfortunately they threw away what they couldnt mill, without calling me first.  Is it common to throw the wood away without telling the owner?  I am already on the hook for the blades, which I have no problem with. 
Im sure I could have made some blanks out of some of the scrap, or worse yet firewood.  Sorry just venting.
Anyways its all the more reasons for me to purchase my own mill.  I plan on being at the Paul Bunyan show this October to check out as many mills as possible.  Hopefully I will get a chance to meet some of you first hand.

[ely]

in my past history when i paid someone to saw for me.... they had to show me the wood with metal in it before i paid for any saw blades.
IMO that could get to be a sticky situation for someone. all sawmillers are not what you call honest abes.

[Ironwood]

They were your logs and you should have been contacted on what to do with them, ie, firewood and so on......

 Ironwood

[Todd]

Funny, the walnut I've milled with metal in it had stains like crazy.

[isawlogs]

 Your wood, your call. I would be very upset about my wood disarearing .. very       Who's to saye that it had some really good looking stain and that a buddy is now turning a peice of art 

[tomb]

Thank you for confirming my thoughts.  I wanted to make sure that I wasnt just going off the deep end over nothing.  I think Im going to have to make a trip over and discuss whats happened in person.
Its not going to be an easy conversation, all of my lumber is in his kilns right now.
Hopefully we will see eye to eye on the situation, this is probably the last time I will take my logs there.
How would you approach a similar situation?  Suggestions?

[Autocar]

The big walnut log looked to me at the bottom of the B there is metal stain

[nomad]

     Personally, I'd find someone else to do business with.  If he's the "only game in town" I'd still have to figure out something else.  I have a real heartburn dealing with somebody I don't trust.  I admit; sometimes it can't be avoided.  But I sure try hard to avoid it anyway!  Good luck with your "conversation."

[woodmills1]

sounds like you need a tune up between you and the cutter


bring them to me I will call you when metal changes the scene

I never charge for blades up front

but always say ifin the metal showes we talk

[tomb]

Your very right Autocar.  I did take out a copper nail out of the but end, and there were 2 small stains in that area.
 I completely understand you will not always know about hidden objects untill the blade finds them, and again I have no problem paying for damaged blades.  Thats part of the milling game, sometimes you win and sometimes you dont!
My issue comes from not being notified when it happened.  A simple phone call would have prevented the current situation, and kept a business relationship in good standing.
I do have other sawyers in my area, and I will be checking them out untill I can purchase my own mill. 
Just another one of lifes lessons you learn along the way.   Thanks again for your everyones advice.

[Tom]

Don't burn any bridges.  He must know that the logs were yours whether he finished sawing them or not.  But, a shouting match and hard feelings will last years.  If you get a mill, you might need him again, or he might need you.

Sawmills aren't the only way of getting product form a lot.  An axe will split out turning blanks, in a pinch.

[Todd]

tomb,
i don't have a kiln, but if you want to come up to Toledo my mill is  about a mile from Libbey H.S.  (yea, it's in the hood!) If you keep having problems I could at least cut the stuff up for ya.

[metalspinner]

With such a nice big log as the walnut you pictured, I would have been on sight helping to tail.  That way when questions arise you can figure out the solutions together.  Many times, I have an idea of what I would like out of a log, but after it's opened, my expectations change. Did you ask for any special sizes, or just run of the mill? 

For what I do, most of any log can be put to good use beyond firewood. Quite often I ask for my slabs to be set aside with the lumber. For instance, I have quite a large mulberry log waiting to saw.  The edgings will be given to a buddy for his smoker.  My sawyer and I have been working together for almost 10 years and we are both very familiar with each other and fully trust the actions each of us take.

If the remainder of the log really has been "thrown out," I would be upset. I would then question how he plans to compensate you for the material he threw out.  Remember, you are compensating him for his blades ruined in your logs.  It's a two way street.  If the two of you value each other for what you each bring into this relationship than an understanding should be able to be made.  Your initial approach will set the mood for the entire conversation.

In the end, it's just a log.  Wood grows on trees, ya know.  The ongoing relationship is probably more important.  His set up sounds very nice. The benefits of receiving KD lumber when you brought in a log would outweight this one time headache, IMHO.

[tomb]

Well im back from the mill meeting, and it was a calm discussion as I wanted.  Face to face discussions are much better then phone conversations.  With the added benefit of actually seeing your lumber.
I will be able to retrieve the walnut cant this week , but the maples are gone.
Its still not an ideal situation but one I can deal with while the rest of my wood is dried.

Metalspinner, I would have liked to been on site while he milled all my lumber.  However its not how he does business.  I drop off the logs and he mills it in between his contract work.  I delivered the hickory, and two maples in June of 2010.  Then delivered the Oak in August and the Walnut in November.  My logs were then shipped to another mill without my knowledge and brought back for drying in January.  Not exactly ideal if you ask me.  But life goes on...

Thanks for the offer Todd, one day I would like to stop by and take a look at your operation and talk a while.
Thanks again to everyone here on the forum!
                                                                                             Tom

[Blue Sky]

I bought a Woodmizer before I bought a chipper back in '87, so that  I could mill up all the trees I was cutting down in clients yards.  Running a tree service generated all these beautiful trees that no one wanted except hardwood that they wanted to cut up into firewood.  What do you do with a 125 year old cherry tree that is 35 feet straight, 28" in girth.  Cut it up for firewood?--I do not think so.  I built the home I have lived in for the last 20 something years, mostly from trees I cut down in clients yards.  In 1999, In cut down a 38" White Pine-85 feet of usable timber.  Cut it into 6" flitches and sawed the whole thing into clapboards.  One tree covered my whole house, the outside sauna and still have clapboards to boot
     Years ago, I saw someone had written a book on milling urban trees, like that was a new idea.  Bandsaw blades are roughly 14.00 a blade, and worth the risk of hitting hardware.

[TravisMVL]

$14.00 per blade? where are you ordering from?
My blades cost $22.50 or so from Timberwolf, but I charge $50.00 per blade when I hit something in a customers log plus my time in digging out the metal. You really have to consider that once you put a fresh blade on a mill it should cut cut 600-800 board feet with it before taking it off (I run 13' 9" x 1-1/4" x 3/4 pitch x .045 with is small but thick for its size) and if it has to come off prematurely that is a loss on top of the damaged blade, and my time dealing with the issue must be charged to the customer because it's their material you are processing for them, it's not for your own good.
Once I pull out the metal I always return it to the client weither they request it or not so they cannot tell me that I'm making it up for an extra charge.

[woodmills1]

what I cut is urban

all tree service trees              unless they are my own woods trees....but not many of those since buying the blue OX

used to scan all with a detector, back in the lean days



but then what   discard the tree     hack the metal out   and find more with the blade



now I look at them real close for the telltale signs   then  have at em with a blade


win some   lose some

but sure get many many many nice sweet boards from the reject trees

[jayves922]

That's a decently huge wood you got there. And you've most probably learned quite a huge life lesson with your sawyer too. It is right that you must have been informed about it beforehand. What would be the best way to have done this better if you were in the same scenario twice?

[tomb]

Here is everything but the walnut, it is still in the kiln.  All totalled up I should wind up with 1250 board feet.
I am currently in the process of building more racks to hold everything.  Once those are finished I will treat all the lumber with Timbor before it goes into the racks.  Anything to help keep those darn bugs from getting into my lumber!

To sum up the whole experience with my five logs and my sawyer.
I need to ask the important questions before I deliver the logs to him. 
Questions like, how long before he can get to my logs?  Will he personally be milling my lumber?  Will he call me about delays or problems?

This is new territory for me, and I need to keep in mind that problems WILL happen while milling urban sourced lumber.   I also need to keep a open communication line while the whole process is happening, making a couple calls a month to keep updated.
So another lesson learned in the continuing growth of my woodworking business!

Thanks to everyone for your help along the way.  The roads been bumpy but I eventually got there.

[Okrafarmer]

$14.00 per blade? where are you ordering from?
My blades cost $22.50 or so from Timberwolf, but I charge $50.00 per blade when I hit something in a customers log plus my time in digging out the metal. You really have to consider that once you put a fresh blade on a mill it should cut cut 600-800 board feet with it before taking it off (I run 13' 9" x 1-1/4" x 3/4 pitch x .045 with is small but thick for its size) and if it has to come off prematurely that is a loss on top of the damaged blade, and my time dealing with the issue must be charged to the customer because it's their material you are processing for them, it's not for your own good.
Once I pull out the metal I always return it to the client weither they request it or not so they cannot tell me that I'm making it up for an extra charge.

I charge $10 for hitting a nail. It only costs $7 to sharpen a blade, and I can have it changed out in ten minutes. (they're still paying hourly for my time). I've never yet broken a blade. That would be $25. I've never hit metal in a custom log, either, only ones we saved to mill up.

[Okrafarmer]

     Years ago, I saw someone had written a book on milling urban trees, like that was a new idea.  Bandsaw blades are roughly 14.00 a blade, and worth the risk of hitting hardware.

Blue, do you know what the name of the book is?

And where do you get $14 blades?

I also risk hardware for a good log. Especially walnut.

[nomad]

     Okra, I think the book you're talking about is "Harvesting Urban Timber" by Sam Sherrill.  He's also got a website.

[Dave Tarheels]

Tomb == do you put the Timbor on wood that will sit for a period of time ? Is this precaution step you take ?  I'm curious the reason you use this product . I'm curious I haven't been sawing that long , just curious .

[tomb]

Hi Dave,
             I decided to start using this product when I made myself an entertainment center and wound up with powder post beetles.   Thankfully it was mine and not a customers project!
I do not kiln dry all my lumber so bugs were a concern.  I looked at a lot of products and found that Timbor was the most economical for me.  I usually buy it off of "Feebay" when I need it.  I have figured it out to cost me about .05 cents a board foot.
I started coating just my air dried lumber with it, but then decided to coat all my lumber.  Powder post and other critters can reinfest the lumber once its kiln dried.  I would rather air on the side of caution then have another project get chewed up by powder post.
Happy milling!
Tom

[Dave Tarheels]

I have a brother i law who is a bug guy and he said he's familiar with disodium octoborate tetrahydrate , and he also has a Bora-Care for direct wood anti-fungal termite preventative,  is this something your familiar with .  I just spoke with him in online chat for a minute so the details of these products I'm not familiar with. or the method .  thanks for the info Tom

[tomb]

Anything That contains borate will work for you.  The boracare was just more expensive for me, so I went with the Timbor.  Im not sure how you apply the boracare but the timbor is pretty easy.
You mix it in warm water and then spray it on all the surfaces of the wood.  Let it dry and stack and sticker the wood.
I like that it doesnt discolor the wood in any way.

[Ironwood]

Folks you can also buy straight Borate from your local farm store by the 80 lb bag. My local Agway ordered some bags in for me. Borate is a naturally ocuring salt mined (I think in California) , it is the "taste bad" part of both Timbor and Boracare. If you dont want to spend the money on the anti fungal, or the trade name just use the salt. Same deal, dilute and keep wetted as long as possible for better penetrtation, that is perhaps one of the only "other" things in those trade named products. Anti freeze in diluted amounts will also help in your home brew (although keep pets away when drying as it poison). FYI, YMMV (tour mileage may vary)

Ironwood

[WDH]

Reid,

I buy Solubor from the farm chemical supply place.  It is a fertilizer additive to supply boron, an important micro-nutrient.  If you Google Timbor and Solubor and read the label, they have the same active ingredient that supplies 20.5% boron.  However, Timbor is labeled for pesticide use while Solubor is labeled for Ag use.  There is no difference in their ability to deliver boron, but Timbor costs over 3 times more than Solubor. 

Is it Solubor that you are using, too?

[Ironwood]

WDH,

 No, it just says borate on the bag, think it is in a orange and brown bag.

Ironwood

[tomb]

Thanks Ironwood, I will check into it.
Tom

[WDH]

There is another Ag product called Beau-Ron.  I have used it before, too. 

I pay $48 for a 50# bag of Solubor.