Growth Rings

[jim king]

Jim, I would say a lot of that is stain streaks caused by bacteria or fungus and nothing to do with growth rings. The tropical trees don't have as well defined rings because there is no abrupt change in ring growth due to early and late-wood growth.

Are the growth rings always the same in each species, or are they something that you occasionally find?  If its the same all the time, then its a characteristic of the wood.  Something like walnut turning brown in the heartwood.

If its something you find on occasion, then its probably bacterial.  We get "mineral" in red oak.  Its black steaks, and is quite often associated with the growth rings, but not as pronounced as you have.  Its bacterial and only occurs in certain areas.   

The color pattern is stable from tree to tree of many species.  Not all species  do this.  These unusual trees are what I built my turning blank and hobbywood business on due to the wild colors.  It has been many years and still no explanation as to what may cause it.  Here are somes photos of sliced cants made into plywood that show the figure.

 



 



 

[SwampDonkey]

There is no definitive answer on bird's eye maple or bird's eye yellow birch either. Take a number Jim.

[jim king]

Here are some end grain photos and one showing a worm hole but the worm hole does not effect the color.



 







 

[Pilot1]

Moose,

I tended to disagree with Swamp when looking at the first 2 pics, but the 3rd shot leaves me less certain.  My problem with the first 2 pics is that the rings narrowed too abruptly to be normal crowding.  It's like something suddenly happened.  We had an area of offsite trees that started growing when we had a warm spell in December and when normal weather returned all the trees suffered freezing damage to their crowns.  That caused an abrupt reduction in ring width that they never recovered from, kind of like your first 2 pics, but in our case it was a lot worse.  But the 3rd pic looks more like what I would expect from crowding, a more gradual narrowing of the rings.  If the stumps generally all look like the 3rd pic, yeah, normal stand crowding.  If like 1 & 2, I would ask if something happened, maybe a defoliator?  Doesn't mean they won't come back, but see below.

Although I have bored thousands of trees to look at the rings, I pay a lot more attention to crown condition and crown ratio when evaluating what I would expect after thinning.  I want no less than a 30% crown ratio, closer to 40% is better.  And at 30%, it needs to be a healthy, dense crown.  25% crown ratio or real thin crowns at 30% ore even more & it's time for a regeneration cut.

[SwampDonkey]

We don't get regrowth in softwood in winter up here. On occasion we will see aspen wake up after an early winter (Mid Nov) warm spell. Budworm hasn't been a problem here for about 15 years, but It's coming. I see it around the UP and the Soo (both sides of the border). I've seen spruce and fir cookies like that many times and knowing the history of the stand helps to. Pretty sure it's crowding. How come all the sudden at the end , starting 5 or 6 years before it was cut? As I said, every 25-30 years in eastern spruce and fir and you have to do something. Most land owners in this area are happy as punch to get one thinning done, let alone carrying on later.

[Mooseherder]

This picture is of the area the Spruce was harvested from. 
It may be hard for you to see if it was from over crowding from this picture.
It is on a northwest slope down from our Cabin and this is the sunset pic.


This one shows the general area also, not too crowded? 
This picture is around 50 feet from where the Spruce went down.
Looks like a great Bear den with shelter from the north wind now.
I know that'll lay right back down when I cut these trees.
The Spruce stump went right back down went I cut it.


Here's how it ended up in case you missed it.

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,45780.0.html

[SwampDonkey]

It's not thick, but yes becoming crowded. The problem has always been the economics of intermediate thinnings. The end product of spruce and fir is not high dollar, although spruce does tend to yield better $$ for potential veneer and maybe larger sawlogs. Your talking about 20+ inch trees, where by this time, balsam fir has fallen out of the picture. Many times the question of more money for larger wood gets attractive if you have a log home market. With the sawmills, they usually don't budge on price. It's like the difference between white spruce and black spruce, they won't pay more for slower grown black.

[ID4ster]

Gary C in regards to your posting # 15. If the lady is having a problem thinning the trees because she is a tree hugger try two different approaches.

1) See if you can get some cookies from a nearby precommercial thinnig that was successfully released. You'll need a thinning that was done a couple of years ago and if you can't get cookies than get some core borings. What you want to show her is how the trees released and the increase in the tree ring size after the trees were released. Then show her a core boring from one of her trees that shows the tight suppressed ring  count that is undoubtedly present. Sometimes that is enough to convince them that a thinning would be beneficial.

2) Get a couple of small 4-5 inch diameter flower pots and fill them with some good planting soil. Sow 40-50 carrot seeds in each one. When the seeds germinate let one grow unthinned and thin the other one to 4 or 5 carrots. Let her see the difference in carrot size after a season of growing. And then let her know that that is what is happening to her trees. Once you can convince a landowner that a thinning is beneficial and they can see for themselves the increase in growth and vigor of their trees they really come around and become very enthusiastic supporters of active mangement. Once that happens things really fall into place for everyone. Good luck if you decide to persue this matter further and let us know how it turns out.

[Gary_C]

I'm afraid she is a lost cause. She told me the last time I was there that I was sure persistant. I did show her the cookie in the picture and explained all that to her. And then she said she knew all that but they would have to carry her out of there before anyone cut a single tree out of there. One of her big fears is in the winter the wind would blow thru the opened up woods. The nice house and gardens sit right in the middle of that woods.

From what one of the neighbors told me, her and her sisters may have to sell the place soon as they cannot afford the taxes. Probably the inheritance taxes.

Plus all my other jobs in that area are done and I don't get back there much. But then again, I can be persistant. 

[SwampDonkey]

The lady might have a valid point. I've seen yellow birch bend to the ground if left to grow to tall and skinny before a thinning and I have seen advanced fir regrowth get too tall and skinny before a thin and have the wind take 20-30% of the leave trees by snapping them off like snapping wax bean pods.

[Gary_C]

I don't think blowdown is in her thinking at the moment. She is more worried about the wind and snow blowing thru her little compound in the middle of that stand.

The sisters of this lady live nearby and she moved back there from Texas when their parents passed. I guess part of the problem is they have mostly sagebrush and few trees in Texas so this lady is trying to save as many trees as she can cause she thinks there are not many left. 

[SwampDonkey]

Don't see much of that mentality in these parts. There are folks that don't want trees cut on their ground, but not because they are against logging so much as they are protecting their pension supplement cheques from being cut off from the extra income claimed. And if someone has other reasons, well the family usually winds up dividing and conquering to pay the tax man the inheritance taxes. I've seen that very thing more times than I can count and often since everyone owns dibs, the lot will not be managed afterward, won't even get free thinning done.

[Pullinchips]

Been a long time since i checked in. But i agree with Swamp. You will see a larger set of rings in the future once the tree gets over the stress root compaction and is able to put on more branch mass to make use of the extra space, and less competition.

I am a southern forester so i have no idea to the life span cycle of those trees but here in the south if you waited that long for a thin you will never recover the lost growth.  Trees only have so much growth potential in them, weather there shaded or open grown they all have the same potential, but a supressed tree may only ever reach 8 inches DBH (in the case of southern pine) when the surrounding trees are 18" DBH. If you thin the stand and take the 65 year old trees off the 8" one it will never reach 18" probably may not ever get 2" bigger. Thin the bug trees and you wont see a boost. Its because the fast growth in southern pines takes place in the first 25 years or so. If you loose that potential at the first part of its life its gone and gone for good. Thats why we say to thin early and often.

[SwampDonkey]

Don't hide away for so long next time Nate. I was talking to Jeff (the boss man here) this summer trying to recall your name and where from. The conversation was about some of you younger foresters we haven't seen online much for quite some time. Life takes it's little turns and shifts gears as they say.

Don't be strangers, some of us do too much typing at times. Sometimes type stuff that leads you to wonder sometimes as well. Gary_C asked me one time if I'm ever wrong. L0L!

Just keep on keep'n on.

How's the deer hunting in SC this year?