First investment

[ArcFault]

Howdy guys, I am going to make my first investment into the forestry game. I need a saw and have no idea where to start. All I have is a little 14"bar husky and it does not work very well. I believe it is nearly ready for retirement.

The person who used to do the wood here used to have a much larger saw but it is MIA. The family does not know where it is.

Also, what other infortant gear is needed... (For a newbie)


Thanks a lot for any help.


Brandon.

[Ianab]

How about a brief explanation of what you will be doing?

Weekend firewood cutting in small trees needs a lot less saw than dropping 36" hardwood.

Ian

[celliott]

Regardless of what you are going to be cutting or using the saw for, you should have personal protection equipment- kevlar chaps, helmet with faceshield and earmuffs, gloves, and safety toed boots.  It is a personal choice to use this equipment, but it definitly can save your life. running a chainsaw is dangerous.

[John Mc]

ArcFault -

As Ianab said, it would help to know a bit about what you are cutting. Hardwoods vs softwoods, diameter of the logs. Are you mainly felling and limbing, or are you bucking up short lengths for firewood use, etc.

For example, what I cut is mostly 8"-12" diameter hardwoods, I do get up to 16", and rarely over that. I have some neck and back problems from an old wrestling injury, so I tend towards smaller and lighter saws, especially since when I do go out to cut, I tend to make a day of it (rather than just going out for a couple of hours here and there). I'm cutting for my own use, and working with a landowner cooperative to get firewood for the group of us. I'm not doing this for a living, but I do have an interest in getting the job done efficiently. I'd also like to avoid having to take a trip to the chiropractor after a day or two of cutting (the "Weekend Warrior Syndrome").

I have a "semi-pro" 50cc saw (Jonsered 2152, similar to a Husky 353) which I use for felling and limbing. It's lightweight, well balanced, and I can carry it around the woods all day, cover a lot of ground, and easily maneuver it for limbing. Do I wish it had more power sometimes? Sure, but the light weight keeps me coming back to it. (I did replace the catalytic muffler with a non-cat one, which made it run cooler and gave it more power. The catalytic muffler is pretty restrictive. That modification was well within my limited chainsaw mechanic skills.)  I run a .325 pitch chisel chain - threw out the safety chain that came with it. I have a 16" bar which handles most of my needs. I'd rather go at the occasional larger tree from both sides than carry around a heaver saw or longer bar all day.

I also have a Husky 357XP (a pro saw which is basically a 60cc saw) that I tend to use for bucking the trees to firewood length. It weighs more than the 2152, but has noticeably more power. Since I'm not running all over the woods with it, the weight for power trade off was worth it. I make a lot of cuts when bucking, so the extra power saves some time. I run a 3/8 pitch chisel chain on this, still with a 16" bar. (I do have a longer bar, which I might put on if I know I have a day of cutting bigger wood.)

On both of these saws, I tended to stay away from the "homeowner saws" of similar size/power. Soe of these are fairly well made, and would hold up OK for the amount and type of cutting I do. For me, however, the extra weight of a lot of these saws as compared to a similar powered pro or semi-pro saw was not something I wanted to deal with. It doesn't seem like much, but even an extra pound can make a difference.

I could probably get away with just one saw, if I had to. In reality, I tend to use them interchangably a good bit of the time (which did I leave closer to where I am... which one happens to have a sharp chain at the moment, etc.) I'd have a hard time deciding which to get rid of now that I have both.

I offer the above more as an example of the kind of things that went into my decision-making, than to convince you to run out and by one or both of these saws. Your situation is probably different than mine: you might be cutting different sizes or types of wood. You might be in a lot better shape, so lugging an 80cc saw around all day may not bother you. I would urge you to match the saw to the type of work you are going to be doing most of the time. You don't need to run out and buy the biggest saw you can afford (or lift) with the longest bar it can handle just because you might run into a couple trees a season that can really put a saw like that to use. If you only have one saw, match it to the job you will be doing most of the time. You can still use it on bigger wood, it just might take a bit more doing. The trade off is that you'll probably be better off at the end of the day, and less fatigued. Fatigue makes you think and react slower, and that's not something you want to push your luck with when running a tool like this.

Sorry for the long ramble. Hope this helps. Please fill us in on what kind of work you'll be doing, how much of it, and whether you have any other considerations: making a living at it vs personal use or something in-between, age/condition (the typical 20-something year old's body can take more abuse than those of us who are getting up there in age a bit). Are there dealers in your area who have a good reputation for supporting their customers?

Good luck with your decision.

[chucker]

  !! HI, AND WELCOMTO THE SITE!! since you already like the jonsered saws the next best sized choice from my view would be the 2159 .......2159 matched up with a 18" bar and chipper chain in 3/8 should handle all your needs.its just a little more in weight and bulk then the 2152.... plenty of power for this saw! take care in personal protection equipment and learn from the mistakes all our members have shared with everyone!! again "WELCOME TO FORESTRY FORUM".....

[ArcFault]

I am for the most part cutting poplar and white pine. The pine is quite big 20" or so.. The poplar is slightly smaller. Not much hard wood that I can get too. A lot of nice maple but it's to much for my old Fergusson. For now.


I went and bought a face shield/ hardhat combo.  And some pants. I already own the safty toed boots.

There is one dealer here he sells husky's but I was told he just rings the cash. Not much of a help.

[Randy88]

I'd recommend finding a dealer who knows sometihing and can fix it and buy a saw from him along with some plastic wedges to help you out an axe, gas and oil mix, bar oil, spare chains, I prefer two saws anytime I'm in the woods in case you get one pinched and can't get it out, but the wedges and ax can help out as well, a log chain and clevis if you've got the tractor handy or pickup, saw files, chainsaw wrench with screwdriver to adjust the chain tension, spare chains, all the above mentioned safety protection equipment, including ear plugs, if your not a seasoned sawyer take along a cell phone and keep it on your body at all times in case of a problem and you need help, if you don't have a cell phone take along a friend,  always tell someone where your going and when your getting home and be home by then or make sure they come looking for you, accidents can and do happen.    I run the pro series stihls, a 660, 460, 361, anywhere from 16- 28 inch bars all interchangable amoungst saws.   

Remember the most important thing ever, life is whats important not equipment, never sacrafic safety to save equipment, equipment can be replaced but not body parts or human life.   Don't try to save a saw and get killed doing it, abondon the saw to save your ass.   I've seen it happen where someone gets focused on thier equipment and not wanting to have it damaged only to get injured or killed in the process, never let it happen to you, I tell my kids and family that all they have to tell me is "I'm safe and unhurt but the saw didn't make it" and as long as their safe and unhurt I don't care what it cost for equipment I can buy that new tomorrow but I can't replace them.  They get the lecture every time we head out for the day, that was ingrained in me from little on and now I'm the one telling it and over the years only a few bars have been damaged but in those instances someone could have been killed trying to save the saw, its just instinct I guess to protect your equipment and forget about safety for even a second, expecialy when your new and the stuff costs a lot of money and you don't have it to spend.

[John Mc]

As Randy88 pointed out, two saws is great to have when working in the woods. you can cut one saw out if the bar gets pinched and you can't free it.

If two saws is not in the cards for you right now, a spare bar and chain is the next best thing. If you get stuck, just remove the powerhead fro the stuck bar and chain, put in your spare, and cut the first out.

John Mc

[ArcFault]

As Randy88 pointed out, two saws is great to have when working in the woods. you can cut one saw out if the bar gets pinched and you can't free it.

If two saws is not in the cards for you right now, a spare bar and chain is the next best thing. If you get stuck, just remove the powerhead fro the stuck bar and chain, put in your spare, and cut the first out.

John Mc

Yeah I never thought of that. Does a saw getting pinched happen a lot? Or is it a freak accident type thing?

[JohnG28]

Pinching a bar is not exactly a freak thing, and happens to the best pros and the beginners alike.  Being as your still pretty new Im sure you will get a taste of it sooner than later.  Having 2 saws or a spare bar/chain is a good idea, as well as a few wedges.  These can get you out of a jam pretty well.  The info already given here is a very good starting point, these guys have ya on the right track.

[ArcFault]

Pinching a bar is not exactly a freak thing, and happens to the best pros and the beginners alike.  Being as your still pretty new Im sure you will get a taste of it sooner than later.  Having 2 saws or a spare bar/chain is a good idea, as well as a few wedges.  These can get you out of a jam pretty well.  The info already given here is a very good starting point, these guys have ya on the right track.

Well, when I go out I generally bring my current saw. Two weges and a maul.

[chucker]

  worst case you will find your self in is felling a tree with the bucking spikes set in a tree on the face cut and pinched!! pinched with no room to remove the bar an chain from the power head. slack is needed to remove the chain and with out your in for a work out!! i would never think of heading to the woods for a days work with out a second saw at hand. lucky to have the 2054 stuck once to the hilt, and lucky again to have a jonsered with a e clip on the driver for a easier removel....  best of luck!!

[beenthere]

Pinching a bar is not exactly a freak thing, and happens to the best pros and the beginners alike.  Being as your still pretty new Im sure you will get a taste of it sooner than later.  Having 2 saws or a spare bar/chain is a good idea, as well as a few wedges.  These can get you out of a jam pretty well.  The info already given here is a very good starting point, these guys have ya on the right track.

Well, when I go out I generally bring my current saw. Two weges and a maul.

If not an extra saw or bar/chain, then at least have an axe along. Will/may save the day. Sometimes can go a long time without a pinch, then all of a sudden it happens. Tugging and pulling just doesn't work very often, and can break things (so I've heard  ).

[Randy88]

I've always got an axe along even with two saws and its been years since I've used it but its along, and I have always got several wedges, mine are steel and those haven't been used in decades but again they are in the truck, as they say one of these days I might need them and I"ve got them.  As for pinching I've got one of my sons who can't run a saw for five minutes without getting his saw stuck and one who's never pinched his ever, its just how you run them and study the tree and limbs and figure out how things react, everyone's different. 

[John Mc]

As for pinching I've got one of my sons ... who's never pinched his ever

At least not that he'll admit to?

[Okrafarmer]

I am for the most part cutting poplar and white pine. The pine is quite big 20" or so.. The poplar is slightly smaller. Not much hard wood that I can get too. A lot of nice maple but it's to much for my old Fergusson. For now.

Arc, there's a lot you can do with your old tractor that you may not be aware of. If it runs worth beans you should be able to pull out maple trees. My dad's '48 John Deere B would pull out two 16" maples tree length together at the same time. If the tree is too big, cut it into logs you can handle. Even a quite large diameter tree you should be able to pull in short pieces, 8-12 feet long, or whatever. If your Massey's running right, you should be able to do it, if you have good tires. If not, you might consider getting some chains for it, if you can find some used (on internet, or whatever) or they'll cost less than new tires and you'll be able to bite in. Make sure your individual rear wheel brakes work, too, as you can use them to help control rear wheel slippage, especially in situations where one wheel gets on ice but not the other one, etc. Use your 3-point hitch to lift the front end of the log off the ground A LITTLE. This will put your traction on the rear wheels and also help keep the front of the log from snagging on stumps and stuff. [For smaller, lighter logs, it is ok to lift them higher off the ground, 2 or 3 feet if they're not very heavy for the tractor]. Go slowly when you have a big log on like that, no faster than about 2 mph (3 k) unless you know you are on a smooth skid trail where you are not going to hit any bumps or stumps. If the front of your log hits a stump dead on it will most likely cause the tractor's front end to lift off the ground-- sometimes lightning fast. When skidding large logs you must drive with your foot hovering on top of the clutch  pedal ready to plunge it in instantly if the front end comes up. Also, drive very carefully through terrain where there may be stumps, rocks and other obstructions, avoiding hitting them with the end of the log. If you are traveling on a known skid road where you know there are no obstructions, you can feel free to go faster depending on the terrain, the load, and the condition of the tractor. Just know those old beasts can upend themselves in a hurry and if you don't have a roll-bar and seat belt you could be crushed instantly. Use common sense. Don't ever stop thinking about what's happening, and think safely. Don't drive a tractor or operate a chainsaw when you are angry or really preoccupied or upset about something. Take time to calm down and let it pass. Some time I'll share my full aspen pinch story with you. Never lose track of what's going on.

I wish you good fortune with your enterprise, buddy! Keep us posted as to how you do.

Jim

[Randy88]

John Mc, read it and laughed, thats about right, that ones has enough common sense to either get himself out or go get another saw to saw himself out anyway I don't have to go and help him or worry about him getting hurt or doing something stupid.   A couple of my other kids, now thats a whole different story, lets say the woods isn't where they call home or being in their element to say the least.   

Reminds me of a comment my father-in-law told me one day many years ago, my kids were pretty little and were getting into trouble doing the same things repeatedly and I made the off hand comment of "do they ever grow up and learn" and he looked at me and said "are you talking to me and asking me" I said yea maybe and he said " how the h*ll should I know my oldest is only 56 I"ll let you know if it ever happens", I've thought back on that over the years and I guess he's right no matter how old they get they are still just my kids. 

[ArcFault]

I am for the most part cutting poplar and white pine. The pine is quite big 20" or so.. The poplar is slightly smaller. Not much hard wood that I can get too. A lot of nice maple but it's to much for my old Fergusson. For now.

Arc, there's a lot you can do with your old tractor that you may not be aware of. If it runs worth beans you should be able to pull out maple trees. My dad's '48 John Deere B would pull out two 16" maples tree length together at the same time. If the tree is too big, cut it into logs you can handle. Even a quite large diameter tree you should be able to pull in short pieces, 8-12 feet long, or whatever. If your Massey's running right, you should be able to do it, if you have good tires. If not, you might consider getting some chains for it, if you can find some used (on internet, or whatever) or they'll cost less than new tires and you'll be able to bite in. Make sure your individual rear wheel brakes work, too, as you can use them to help control rear wheel slippage, especially in situations where one wheel gets on ice but not the other one, etc. Use your 3-point hitch to lift the front end of the log off the ground A LITTLE. This will put your traction on the rear wheels and also help keep the front of the log from snagging on stumps and stuff. [For smaller, lighter logs, it is ok to lift them higher off the ground, 2 or 3 feet if they're not very heavy for the tractor]. Go slowly when you have a big log on like that, no faster than about 2 mph (3 k) unless you know you are on a smooth skid trail where you are not going to hit any bumps or stumps. If the front of your log hits a stump dead on it will most likely cause the tractor's front end to lift off the ground-- sometimes lightning fast. When skidding large logs you must drive with your foot hovering on top of the clutch  pedal ready to plunge it in instantly if the front end comes up. Also, drive very carefully through terrain where there may be stumps, rocks and other obstructions, avoiding hitting them with the end of the log. If you are traveling on a known skid road where you know there are no obstructions, you can feel free to go faster depending on the terrain, the load, and the condition of the tractor. Just know those old beasts can upend themselves in a hurry and if you don't have a roll-bar and seat belt you could be crushed instantly. Use common sense. Don't ever stop thinking about what's happening, and think safely. Don't drive a tractor or operate a chainsaw when you are angry or really preoccupied or upset about something. Take time to calm down and let it pass. Some time I'll share my full aspen pinch story with you. Never lose track of what's going on.

I wish you good fortune with your enterprise, buddy! Keep us posted as to how you do.

Jim

I meant more that I can't get to them. I know the tractor is tough. I've seen some stumps of what this thing has pulled out before.

[JohnG28]

I am for the most part cutting poplar and white pine. The pine is quite big 20" or so.. The poplar is slightly smaller. Not much hard wood that I can get too. A lot of nice maple but it's to much for my old Fergusson. For now.

Just curious, is the pine that you are cutting for firewood?  I recall that you said in another post that you are helping out your girlfriend's family with maintaining a firewood supply.  I realize that you said the hardwoods are more difficult to get to, however the hardwoods are what you would be looking for if your cutting for firewood.  I know that pine can be used as firewood, but it is not a very desirable wood to burn.  Just a thought.

[ArcFault]

I am for the most part cutting poplar and white pine. The pine is quite big 20" or so.. The poplar is slightly smaller. Not much hard wood that I can get too. A lot of nice maple but it's to much for my old Fergusson. For now.

Just curious, is the pine that you are cutting for firewood?  I recall that you said in another post that you are helping out your girlfriend's family with maintaining a firewood supply.  I realize that you said the hardwoods are more difficult to get to, however the hardwoods are what you would be looking for if your cutting for firewood.  I know that pine can be used as firewood, but it is not a very desirable wood to burn.  Just a thought.

I know, all I can get to is poplar and pine. LOTS of poplar. So I just rediulous amounts of it. They go through a lot of wood here. At the far back corner and just on the other side of the marsh is where all the maple is. I can't get to it. I tried pulling it through the swamp. Lost it. It sank. I also tried putting it on a little slay type thing while pulling it across the swamp. I still lose it.


What type of wood is burch? I can see a bit of a hill and it looks like there may be some yellow and a decent number of white on it.

[Okrafarmer]

Birch is a hardwood and quite good for firewood. Yellow birch burns well, but is much harder to split than white or gray birch. White and gray birch burn fine too and are easier to split. If you use a wood splitter you should be able to handle the yellow birch better, it will still take longer to split up than white birch, aspen, pine, or maple, but it will burn much better than aspen or pine and will be worth the time to split it if you use a splitter. If you split by hand, cut your firewood logs really short if you have a hard time splitting them. The shorter they are, the easier to split. And the fewer splits you have to make on them. Check on the commercial value of birch in your area-- if you have any large straight ones they might be worth selling as saw-logs. But they do make good firewood, maybe even better than maple or about the same.

[SwampDonkey]

Your yellow birch is just as good as sugar (rock) maple and beech. It'll put out a lot more heat than that aspen (poplar). It will be like.......hey I'm warm now for 6 hours instead of 20 minutes with a nice 16" wide slab in the furnace along with a couple smaller sticks. You'll have to think ahead and get the wood seasoned well to get good heat. Burning green wood looses a lot of BTU's to getting the moisture out of the wood. Aspen as I remember will dry fairly quick, but it's still like burning kindling, that's about all anyone around here uses it for in NB. I'd freeze to death with the stuff. You might even find some bur oak around that swamp and that would be even better heat. Even white ash would be better than poplar. Oh and the trick to splitting that yellow birch or sugar maple is split it in the winter when it's frozen. Splits a lot easier before it begins to dry. I've taken 6 foot long yellow birch bolts and split them down the middle by axe in the winter time to make canoe paddles, so it's not that hard to work with at the right time.

[ArcFault]

Interesting, but I could never get any of the wood near that swamp. I don't own anything that can do it.


We get down to 40-C somtimes and they've aparently never been cold. But I don't doubt they go through more wood then people who have better wood.

[JohnG28]

One though on that hard to get wood in the swamp is to wait it out until it freezes up good in the winter, then get in there cutting and dragging out.  I know it doesnt help right now, but you wouldnt be using this wood this year anyway.  Get a good saw in the meantime, then cut and drag all ya can while its froze over.  Once ya got a good pile you can buck into stove length and split at your landing area. 

[ArcFault]

One though on that hard to get wood in the swamp is to wait it out until it freezes up good in the winter, then get in there cutting and dragging out.  I know it doesnt help right now, but you wouldnt be using this wood this year anyway.  Get a good saw in the meantime, then cut and drag all ya can while its froze over.  Once ya got a good pile you can buck into stove length and split at your landing area. 

Man, am I an idiot or what... Why did I not think of that. I wonder why my girlfriend's dad never did that. Well, those trees are mine this winter then.

[nas]

I wouldn't take a tractor into the swamp in the dead of winter.  It won't freeze under the snow.  Maybe an ATV of a snowmobile.

Nick

[JohnG28]

Even if the tractor wasnt able to drive through it, should be able to drag logs across, I would think.  Probably need to buck them into reasonable size logs, not tree length, but I would think it could still be possible to get some of that hard to get wood out of there.  Also, is it possible to maybe cut in a new access road/trail, maybe survey a way to get to the harder to get wood you want.  I realize you still need to get that new saw to be more productive and able to take on more, but some more to think about.

[SwampDonkey]

Yeah, watch those swamps for freeze up. Maybe flag a path with ribbon up in the trees across areas that aren't a muck mire, and maybe brush out. Once you make a first path through let it freeze up over night. Do this on a real cold spell, likely in January. I don't know how well that tractor will wade snow though.  When we worked in cedar ground it never froze much.

[Randy88]

Try to get as much cover off the ground as possible so the ground is exposed and the more you drive on it after its froze you drive the frost deeper, works just like a driveway with a lot of traffic, the frost will go four feet deep or more in the driven area and have no frost at all in the area beside it that has a little snow cover on it.   We've already shoved the snow off with a tractor and blade and also the underbrush out of the way and gone in after a few days of really cold and windy weather and just kept the snow plowed off and in a few weeks you could drive almost anything on the path, but the key is to keep the snow off, stay away from areas of flowing water, expecially in muck areas those will virtually never freeze and unless your on tracks to distribute the weight I'd never attempt that, but theres usually an area where you can make a path to, the idea of ribbons tied to the trees is excellent, I"ve already spray painted a mark all the way around trees to mark a path and also used different colors to mark areas to avoid at all costs, its harmless and in few years is gone, but those have a tendancy to get covered with snow and you can't see them.   Depending on how wet the area is winter can work in your favor but if its a marsh and swamp completely it can also be a nightmare, if you'd fall through the ice and end up in muck, you just made for a bad day thats only getting worse, been there done that as well.   

[Okrafarmer]

Don't drive over any open water of the swamp-- it's just not safe, unless you really know what you're doing. Question-- how close can you get to the maples in winter time without going on real treacherous swamp? When the ground is frozen you should be able to get closer even if you can't get right to it. And-- how long is your winch cable? Another thing you can do is to get more cable, if it would help.

[ArcFault]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. Now here is what I've learnt talking to my girlfriends mom.


The swamp never freezes. She said on the really cold days you can see some sort of steam coming off of it actually. I found that weird. Anyone know how this is possible?



The winch cable is very long but it's also maxed out. So adding to it is impossible. But it's dang near 100' I bet. And it can pull a full lenght aspen without delimbing it. (If it's cleared ground or just brush. It comes to a dead stop if I hit a stump. )



I went out and used a can of spray paint and marked some stuff. The little ridge makes it difficult to go around and get to the other side. I cleared about 30' of trail and can't get any further. Tractor does not like the ridge.



They have been across the swamp on a snowmachine, their snowmachine trail continues on the other side. I know the cable reaches across. I've tried.



Thanks guys.

[nas]

A lot of swamps I have seen never freeze in the winter.  Sometimes they have water flowing from one end to the other, and sometimes warmer water is always pushing up from the ground.  This may be the case with your swamp, that the water is running underground from up the hill, and coming up in the swamp.  You could wait for a dry summer, or make a sleigh for the sled and do it in winter.  Check out member Quebecnewf for a good setup.  The other option may be to access it from a neighbours property if it is possible.  Good luck

Nick

[ArcFault]

A lot of swamps I have seen never freeze in the winter.  Sometimes they have water flowing from one end to the other, and sometimes warmer water is always pushing up from the ground.  This may be the case with your swamp, that the water is running underground from up the hill, and coming up in the swamp.  You could wait for a dry summer, or make a sleigh for the sled and do it in winter.  Check out member Quebecnewf for a good setup.  The other option may be to access it from a neighbours property if it is possible.  Good luck

Nick

Going on the nabours land is not a problem. They owm hundreds of acres all arround. I may try talking the one nabour into letting me use his property to gain acess to the hardwood in the far corner.

[beenthere]

..........The swamp never freezes. She said on the really cold days you can see some sort of steam coming off of it actually. I found that weird. Anyone know how this is possible?...............

Possible that the swamp never freezes or that there is "steam" coming off?   

[ArcFault]

..........The swamp never freezes. She said on the really cold days you can see some sort of steam coming off of it actually. I found that weird. Anyone know how this is possible?...............

Possible that the swamp never freezes or that there is "steam" coming off?   

I meant the steam... I know how steam works, don't worry. I just meant, would a swamp do that?

[fishpharmer]

Could the swamp be spring fed?  Is there any waterflow out of the swamp area?  A spring may not have to be "warm" if it has enough flow, to produce steam in the winter.  Just a thought.

[Okrafarmer]

Might not be steam, just water vapor, like when you see your breath in the cold air. The water coming up from below would just be warmer than the air, and when it hits the surface, some of the water, agitating a little, swirls with the air and the air causes it to freeze off like seeing your breath. Also, some swamps generate and release methane or other chemicals enough to produce various visible gas phenomena.

[John Mc]

I wonder if you've got a seep.

I've got a couple of marshy/swampy areas on my land that are pretty good sized. During wet seasons, water does actually flow through them, and a seasonal stream forms at the outlet. They do freeze up in the colder portions of winter. I've only had the guts to take my tractor over the very edges of it, but I do ski across it.

I've got one small area right in the middle of an old logging trail that is constantly wet, even in the middle of a drought. It rarely freezes in the winter. When it does get a cap of ice on it, it's usually very thin... even walking on it will break through the ice. It's on the side of a hill, where the slope gets shallower (though not flat). It's always wet, though I don't ever see much flowing water. There is no obvious inflow source, so I has to be coming up out of the ground. It makes the trail pretty useless (which is why it only gets used on foot, and even then I go around this spot). One of these days, I'll relocate the trail altogether...

John Mc

[ArcFault]

I wonder if you've got a seep.

I've got a couple of marshy/swampy areas on my land that are pretty good sized. During wet seasons, water does actually flow through them, and a seasonal stream forms at the outlet. They do freeze up in the colder portions of winter. I've only had the guts to take my tractor over the very edges of it, but I do ski across it.

I've got one small area right in the middle of an old logging trail that is constantly wet, even in the middle of a drought. It rarely freezes in the winter. When it does get a cap of ice on it, it's usually very thin... even walking on it will break through the ice. It's on the side of a hill, where the slope gets shallower (though not flat). It's always wet, though I don't ever see much flowing water. There is no obvious inflow source, so I has to be coming up out of the ground. It makes the trail pretty useless (which is why it only gets used on foot, and even then I go around this spot). One of these days, I'll relocate the trail altogether...

John Mc

That is kinda neat. I know they have two springs that come up on their property. I've seen two anyways. One gushes, the other trickles. So this may be a spring fed swamp.

[Randy88]

If you have two know springs then there are more in the swamp you can't see, thats usually how it works or its a peat bog or whatever you want to call it.   Most areas that have a sping usually have more, I do ag tiling and when we tile and drain a spring as the ground dries up others not so large are still pumping water and will show up then or you can see them then is more like it.   We dug in a tile line a few years back alongside a spring and did it with the excavator and in a 250 ft long run we counted another 18 springs in the three feet wide width we were digging in, thats why wet areas that are spring fed are really tought to dry up, if thats what your dealing with then the ground will never freeze due to the fact theres always 40-50 degree water being pumped up from below ground and keeping the area thawed out all winter long.  Theres almost always springs coming up in the stream bed as well, you just can't see them pumping water out cause theres flowing water in the stream, thats why the stream is where it is, we've had mother nature reroute streams before due to floods and since you can't put them back again[its against the law] the old abandoned stream bed becomes pasture, farmland, whatever and we always end up going in and tiiing out the springs that are still in the old stream bed to help dry them up.

John Mc, your wet spot in your logging trail thats a boil hole, its at the base of a hill where the hill begins to level off, theres a crevas in the rocks there that channel the water to that spot from off the hill and underground, as the hill seeps water it runs in the underground rock layer and is channeled there and thats where it boils up, I've tiled a lot of those out before, its a rock upcropping that comes closer to the surface there and is different than the underground rock layer around it, if you were to dig in that spot deep enough you'd find a hole that you could stick your arm into and only one hole, thats why the water boils up there, it must be pretty deep or you'd never drive across it, if you did it right you could actually pipe the water to the surface and use the underground water pressure to get it to come out on top of the ground in that spot, we've done that as well, for watering livestock, some call them springs others a sand point well or artishian well, boil holes, side hill seeps, whatever you want to call them they work about the same way.  As the water comes off the hill underground it builds up pressure as it falls and when it gets to that point it shoots out ontop of the ground at the lower elevation.   I'd put my road elsewhere, it'll be wet there till the end of time.

The water vapor you see in the winter thats from warmer water hitting coler air, as the spring pumps water up from underground its usually around 45degrees give or take a little and when it hits really cold air on the surface it gives the apprearance of steam, just like seeing your breathe on a cold winters day, in hot summer days it works the opposite, the water is colder and hits the warmer air on the surface and gives off a fog like appearance, thats a big spring pumping a lot of water, like millions of gallons a week or a month, or more, make a fortune and bottle it and sell it as artesian water or something.

[Okrafarmer]

Just don't market it as artesian swamp water.

[SwampDonkey]

Talking about an artesian well, there was always a spot at the end of one of the fields here that seeps water early in the summer and then dries up. That spot was dark earth. Well, when dad sold the farm I told the couple that they'd have all kinds of water just up the field from that spot. Good for a well. They dug the well there and it's been a giser like old faithful for 9 years now, just shooting up in the air around the well head. The folks sold out and moved on and another couple moved in and first they thought the well was busted or something with all the water shooting out. It's stronger in the fall and springtime. A neighbor dug 3 fish ponds and has a well all off springs in the field beside his house, his place is just down the road from the other house a piece. We had a couple other springs out on the back of the farm on the opposite side of the road of those houses to. You just took a cup in the shade of the cedars and spruce and had a good drink in the heat of summer. There is another just up the road where there was a hand dug well with a spring house over it, like at grandpa's dug well down on that same farm I mentioned. (fed two houses and the barn trough). Anyway that spring never freezes and I've seen day after day at -30 F in January, might crust a little but with the sun it opens back up.

[Randy88]

Maybe something like this instead, the freshest arteshian water overlookng a calm beautiful minature lake we're the backwaters are so quiet nobody even knows its there, get a sample of what peacefull and cooling refreshment is truely all about, nothing is fresher, more thirst quenching than natures own atresian water, bottled in a secluded location only the most daring will go to make sure its pure, fresh and available to only you and those that thirst for only the finest.   

Sounds better than, we pounded a pipe in the ground to bottle this junk from the mesquito infested hole that the world abandoned to relive fools of their hard earned money.

[John Mc]

Sounds better than, we pounded a pipe in the ground to bottle this junk from the mesquito infested hole that the world abandoned to relive fools of their hard earned money.

Good one!  Did yo know that municipal water supplies are subject to significantly tighter standards and are more closely monitored than bottled water? Always makes me laugh when people think they're getting "healthier" water when buying bottles. Maybe in some parts of the world, or when compared to some private wells, but generally not when compared to most municipal water supplies in the U.S.

The only time I buy bottled water is when I forgot to bring some with me. Even then I had a hard time bringing myself to pay for it. I've finally rationalized it by thinking "I'm not buying the water, I'm buying a cheap container to carry it in... they just filled it up for me ahead of time."

[SwampDonkey]

I never buy it either, but I was drinking it at Jeff's pig roast because I don't drink carbonated soft drinks or beer.

I know I've got better water from my well than being dispensed in plastic. If you can taste the plastic, and you can, than it ain't good. 

[Okrafarmer]

Did yo know that municipal water supplies are subject to significantly tighter standards and are more closely monitored than bottled water? Always makes me laugh when people think they're getting "healthier" water when buying bottles. Maybe in some parts of the world, or when compared to some private wells, but generally not when compared to most municipal water supplies in the U.S.

The only time I buy bottled water is when I forgot to bring some with me. Even then I had a hard time bringing myself to pay for it. I've finally rationalized it by thinking "I'm not buying the water, I'm buying a cheap container to carry it in... they just filled it up for me ahead of time."

Unfortunately municipal water has chlorine and flouride in it, both of which are harmful to humans. Therefore I try to filter it out, or buy distilled water, which theoretically has neither of these ingredients in it. Unfortunately, my massive hydration needs dictate that I not be so picky and I end up drinking an awful lot of municipal water on a day to day basis-- sometimes 2 gallons or more a day when it's hot out. I believe somebody on here refers to that as a 3-shirt day? But I keep the same shirt on to gain benefit of the sweat already in my shirt to help keep me cool. Anyway, if I buy water it is distilled water and that is the best tasting stuff IMO.