Mod'ed MS441, It can be done.

[441FELLER]

So, who says it can't be done? because I mod'ed mine and use it everyday, still runnin' strong, actually it's my favorite one in my collection.

Anyone that says it can't be done is *pithed because they spent more on they're 460.

[Buck]

details?  work on a 440 or a worn old 044?

[Al_Smith]

Oh you're not the first one to work over a 441 . Just most people choose to enhance other models .

[Cut4fun]

Big Dave was the first guy I remember modding a 441 a little over 2 years it seems. Has it been that long  since the 441 came out . Bunches of modded stratos out there, no biggie  .

Dang where has the time gone. Big Dave modded that 441 back in Feb-Mar 2007   

[tlandrum]

bring that modded 441 on over here i got a modded 460 looking for lunch......it hasnt found a husky or dolmar it dont like to eat either. and yep its used every day.

[Cut4fun]

bring that modded 441 on over here i got a modded 460 looking for lunch......it hasnt found a husky or dolmar it dont like to eat either. and yep its used every day.

Some people just dont understand that part. Yeah the 441 can be wood ported, but they still wont keep up with a woods ported 460, 372, 7900 in TIMED cuts. 

I know of a few woods ported 372 and 7900 that would take you up on that buying lunch deal  against your 460

[441FELLER]

Gutted muff, opened up both intake and exhaust by 20%, my friend is an engineer @ Delfi, and he made me a coil timer that will shut unit off if it's been sitting for more then 10min with no throttle, (ever set your saw down thinking you were coming right back to but it ends up just sitting there idling away?) the timer shuts it down kinda like a turbo timer on a car or big-rig.  I work next to a tool and die shop, and they made me titanium internals (rings, piston and wrist-pin) tweaked the carb, (still waiting for them to make a bigger intellicarb.)  put it all back together with no gask to raise compression to 175psi. 
Cuts smoother then snot due to the awesome AV system, I mainly run a 25" .375 .050 widenose for carving furniture.

[Al_Smith]

  I work next to a tool and die shop, and they made me titanium internals (rings, piston and wrist-pin) tweaked the carb, (still waiting for them to make a bigger intellicarb.)  put it all back together with no gask to raise compression to 175psi. 

Titanium pistons, now I know you can't be serious . Nice try though .

[Rocky_J]

I have an old ragged 372 I'll put up against it. By far the fastest 372 I own but it's 13 years old and falling apart. I keep it for backup and to blow away young hotshots who think they are faster/better than the fat old bucket slug. 

[441FELLER]

Randy-J Step put of the stone age ....the metal the piston was cut out of is called TiTu, it's a titanium tungsten moly, I didn't call it that because i thought i would lose people but it looks like dumbing it down to plain ol' titanium was too much for you.....research your "knowledge" before you start getting jealous again ......man, you 460 owners really are bent about the 441 aren't you? 

If you want to apologize, i will explain to you what the advantages are of the TiTu moly...but only if you say please

[Rocky_J]

Randy-J Step put of the stone age ....the metal the piston was cut out of is called TiTu, it's a titanium tungsten moly, I didn't call it that because i thought i would lose people but it looks like dumbing it down to plain ol' titanium was too much for you.....research your "knowledge" before you start getting jealous again ......man, you 460 owners really are bent about the 441 aren't you? 

If you want to apologize, i will explain to you what the advantages are of the TiTu moly...but only if you say please

You might want to work on your reading comprehension there, Sparky.  Maybe double check who posted what.

[441FELLER]

Like the good gentleman Rocky_J pointed out to me, I did miss direct my last post to him.  I do apologize for the slander Rocky.....It should've looked something like this:

Mr.Al_smith, Step put of the stone age ....the metal the piston was cut out of is called TiTu, it's a titanium tungsten moly, I didn't call it that because i thought i would lose people but it looks like dumbing it down to plain ol' titanium was too much for you.....research your "knowledge" before you start getting jealous again ......man, you 460 owners really are bent about the 441 aren't you? 

If you want to apologize, i will explain to you what the advantages are of the TiTu moly...but only if you say please

You might want to work on your reading comprehension there, Sparky.  Maybe double check who posted what.

[tlandrum]

why would you buy a saw with .5hp less than the 460 and then have to hop it up to get it to run like a 460 but then when you hop up the 460 its ahead of the 441 again and they weigh the same amount. so if im going to carry one around all day it will be the 460. not bent about the 441 just stating the fact that it dont outcut the 460...

[Al_Smith]

  Hmm ,imagine that a metalurgist .First of all titanium would make a lousey piston ,makes a good turbine blade though .About the only way to machine it would be to use ceramic tooling plus the fact a blank of titanium would exceed the value of the saw.

Now that said I do believe in my shed sits an old Stihl 038 Magnum with a little enhancement done to it that would likely give said super duper Stihl 441 a pretty good run for the money . Only has about 200 psi compression static and runs at 14,600 .Aluminum piston though,silicon aluminum if you want to be exact .OEM made by Mahl but a tad bit reworked ,so to speak .

Not that it makes a hill of beans but for your information I personally know some of the fastest saw racers in the USA and none would ever think of attempting to use turbine blade material to make a piston .So if it would not be out of line would you kindly back up the statement with data pertaining to why in the world a person would ever consider using such material in leau of standard silicon aluminum alloy .Inquisitive minds want to know .

Also while you are it explain things such as taper,ovality and thermal expansion of disimular metals .Not worry if you can't because I can.

[441FELLER]

First of all Al, i didn't make the piston, second, the piston isn't completely titanium, i stated that it's a Titanium Tungsten moly, I traded some work to one of the die cutter kids next to my shop.  The kid gave me a piston to my specs, that was lighter then stock, and had a mirror finish to it. He said that the guys in the shop call it "TiTu". maybe the name or concept is new to you, or maybe someone just made me look like an ass by saying TiTu on a message board.  Whatever the case my be, the bottom line is my piston isn't stock. and now my saw runs better.
the net worth of the saw has no meaning to me, you can find anything cheap if you look hard enough, i build what i like, i like trying new things, hence why i went for what the kid gave me, i knew it was a gamble, but i had other saws to mess around with if it didn't work.  So Al, i'm sorry for rubbing you the wrong way, (if you have a wrong way) but, like i said, the bottom line is the piston is made from a different metal then stock, and the saw runs better now.  i guess i wasn't aware of the fact that rocket scientist and Oxford Alumni were members of this forum.  Keep it simple is the lesson of the day.  smiley_beertoastsmiley_really_happy

[Al_Smith]

  Don't worry about rubbing me the wrong, I've been got to by experts .

I couldn't find a thing about this titanium tunsten molly only a little blub about an alloy used for extreme heat applications .I never heard of it .Straight high strength 2.5" titanium round stock  is about 400 dollars a foot .I'd be interested to know the "trade name" of it and who makes it because it is no doubt a special alloy .

That must have been a talented tool maker to carve out a billet piston or a darned good CNC programmer .

Say though since evidently you assembled the saw ,if it's not some great secret how much piston to cylinder clearance does it have ?

[441FELLER]

After doing the squishy/p-do test. i took a tight measurement of .018".....figured that was tight enough without making a factory look hotsaw.

[boobap]

Only has about 200 psi compression static

Al, what do you have to do to acheive those types of numbers? How high would decking the jug alone give you? Do you use a jet fuel mix with that high of comp? 113?

[Cut4fun]

Only has about 200 psi compression static

Do you use a jet fuel mix with that high of comp? 113?

boobap, when you get back and test fuels you will find out there is no gains with the jet fuel except shelf life. Actually some saws run slower in the cut with it.

[boobap]

Another quick question...When talking about chainsaws (or 2-stroke in general), is the compression ratio normally not referenced? I may be way off, but to find compression ratio on a naturally aspirated engine couldn't you take your PSI and divide that by the average atmospheric pressure (approx 14psi)?

[Al_Smith]

Misunderstood ,not piston to head deck clearance commonly called squish but rather piston skirt to cylinder clearance .

On that 200 psi that's somewhere around 20 thou head deck with a pop up  and some tricks  ;)My gauge could be off a little too for that matter but it pulls over about as bad an older 066 without a decomp valve . You think that's a big deal,it's not really . I know a 3 cube alkie burner that's upwards of 300 static .

Now you do a little reading though and most folks back them off to around 190 static and they've achieved much higher than 200 .

[Cut4fun]

Say though since evidently you assembled the saw ,if it's not some great secret how much piston to cylinder clearance does it have ?

I knew what you were asking Al. He came back with squish instead 

[441FELLER]

sorry for the misunderstanding, i was actually kinda scared about the side clearance, being that diff metals have diff expansion rates when hot. but when i gave to kid specs my intentions were to have the clearance be .005", just because i was told the more slap, the more sound, i know the standard is usually .003" and under, i figured that if it EFF'd up i would just jug it and go bigger, so i put it all together and so far so good.
So what are your thoughts Al?, you think this die kid is blowin' smoke? seeings how it didn't swell, melt or start pushing piston pancakes out the exhaust?  at any rate, i spend no cash on the piston, so at least i'm not out big bucks for false merch.

[tlandrum]

my 460 is setting at 195 with a pop up and milled jug and 22 squish. should have milled it down a hair more but it runs ok.he he its had a few things done to it, but hey its not got a fancy piston like that 441 does  just a stock slug nicely cleaned up. im with ya al_smith i think hes yanking our rope. and oh yeah i run 93 octane,no av gas. it dont like that stuff

[Al_Smith]

So what are your thoughts Al?,  .

To be quite honest I have no idea .Not knowing the difference in thermal expansion ratings between this alloy and the standard aluminum and  I assume hard nickel Stihl cylinder .

When I made an iron cylinder for a 125 Mac I set it up for standard Mac saw clearances of 4.5 thou .Had it been to kart specs it would have been 7 thou . Those are aluminum pistons and cast iron liners but running a couple thousand RPM's faster .I suppose though that the diameter would play a factor in it as to size  for clearance .If it doesn't hang it must be okay .

[Al_Smith]

al_smith i think hes yanking our rope. 

Well ya never know  Maybe so maybe knot .No matter though it's entertainment .

[441FELLER]

the saw i guess is kinda fancy....don't ever be afraid to try new stuff, that's how the best stuff becomes better.  fancy is good, muff mods, ignition mods, carb retrofits, internal deletes/updates, shroud trims, sprocket swaps, are they necessary? of course not. but we all do it for one sole purpose, because we're all crazy about saws and pushing their limits.

So here's to all of us and our "Fancy" saws.

[Al_Smith]

Well now the big question is with all this turbine blade piston ,go faster muffler bolts,super duper muffler redesign and custom plastic parts ,will the saw run for over 30 seconds at a time before the piston swells up as tight as a bulls butt in fly time .

Is this a toy saw or one that will get with the program cutting tank after tank full with no problem ? You see all this has never been addressed .All we've been told is this is the fastest 441 on the planet and about the neatest thing going next to beer in a can .

More,more,pics,flicks ,data .

[tlandrum]

it didnt happen without pics and vids.

[Cut4fun]

Posted in wrong thread 

[441FELLER]

i'll post some vids tomorrow, got home late tonight, i'm cutting furniture tomorrow, i'll make some cookie cuts for ya...haha performance muff bolts 

[Al_Smith]

Another quick question...When talking about chainsaws (or 2-stroke in general), is the compression ratio normally not referenced? I may be way off, but to find compression ratio on a naturally aspirated engine couldn't you take your PSI and divide that by the average atmospheric pressure (approx 14psi)?

Thats where it gets real confusing .At sea level the atmosphere is 14.7 psi .Due to the fact it's a two cycle pretty much throws out 4 cycle thinking .

For example a natural asperated 4 cycle relies on atmospheric pressure to fill the cylinder on intake .On a two cycle because of the compression of the crankcase prior to transfer could be as high as 1.5 atmospheres although it seldom is .

Now given say 20 psi going in ,it's pretty easy to see how even a 7.5 comp ratio saw could generate 150 PSI .  It's all about trapped compression and not all that easy to explain .Remember a two cycle works on differential pressures .

Now once you think about all that imagine a tuned pipe that could stuff  half again that much back in the cylinder if it's done correctly .Becomes rather mind boggling if you think about it .