ERC for Arched Entryway

[Walt900]

Hello,

I'm planning to build an arched driveway entryway utilizing 14" diameter Eastern Red Cedar logs.  Logs are presently standing trees in our forest.  I've read many replies here about posts rotting when placed in the ground.  I live in NC, so not a dry climate.

I have two different installation plans. 

First is to install the two vertical logs in-ground to a depth of approximately 42 inches.  Then back fill with rock.  This will be cheaper, and quicker, but presents the rot issue. 

Second is to attach the logs to 6"x2"x5/16"  C channel steel which will be set in one yard of ready mix.  More expensive, and slower but should eliminate most if not all of the below grade rot problem.  Logs will sit on top of the concrete base.  Top of the base will be a few inches above grade.

The two vertical logs will be rocked from grade up to 6 feet.

Now the questions.
 
Which method would you prefer? 

If in ground, does ERC rot similar to other hardwoods? 

Can the ERC logs be treated with a waterproofing material (tar, driveway asphalt sealer) to help slow the rotting? 

Should the ERC logs be dried prior to building?

I've read pressure washing is a good method to de-bark the logs.  Is that true?

Thanks!

[Walt900]

No ideas or recommendations?

The rotting issue is my biggest concern.  How long can I expect the ERC logs to last in the ground if untreated and if treated with  moisture proofing?

[wwsjr]

I have seen small, 4"-6" post, that my Dad placed on fence line 50 years ago that were still standing. However, all the white sap wood had long been rotten. The red center was still solid. I think that it all depends the depth of the sap wood or if the sap wood could be removed before placing in the ground. I used ERC post for my lumber shed. I sawed to 6X6 and did not place any sap wood in the ground. Gravel in bottom of hole and Sacrete to the top. I put them in 8 years ago, no problems yet. Just my 2 cents worth.

[Magicman]

Personally, I would use the second method.  I've had too many instances of cedar rotting in the ground.  Whether in cement or in direct contact with the ground.

[Walt900]

Thank you for the replies.

I'm re-thinking the steel post idea.  If it were to rust at the concrete base, the ERC log would have NO support.

Here is my next idea. 

Install a 4 foot section of 18" concrete or corregated plastic pipe in the vertical position below grade.  Back fill around the outside of the concrete/plastic pipe.  Insert the ERC log down into the pipe, the fill with gravel.  The vertical pipe should keep all or most water and moisture away from the ERC log.  If water does find its way into the pipe, the gravel should allow the water to filter down to the base layer of gravel and away from the ERC log.

[Magicman]

Or you could use treated poles (gasp) for the verticals and cedar elsewhere as someone else I know did.   
 

[Walt900]

Very nice and similar to what I'm planning.    I'm adding two additional pieces that will angle down from the center to the outer support logs.

Something like in this picture I found but not are large and probably not as nice.

http://www.tjswood.com/Slideshows/Log_Entry_Gates/slides/Gates%20011.html

[Magicman]

This ERC fence replaced a rotten Western Cedar split rail fence.  The post do not  go any further than you can see.  I drilled the bottoms and inserted a pipe that actually is cemented into the old fence post holes.



 

[Cedarman]

I have a pole barn where I used cedar poles 30 years ago.  Still standing nicely.  Sapwood gone at ground level, but gravel still keeps everything tight.
Use cedar that has good even red. Stay away from cedar that has white or light colored rings as the heartwood is not as rot resistant as solid red heartwood.  I would debark the cedar with a pressure washer.  Do it the day you cut the trees down or wait a year and a half.  Otherwise the bark is hard to remove.  Above ground the sapwood will last 20 years or more.

[Magicman]

I have an old barn on my tree farm that is well over 100 years old.  All of the poles were backfilled with dirt.  The kicker is that under the barn it's dry.  Powder dry.  With no moisture, the poles have not rotted.

[Walt900]

Can you share any details on how you de-barked with the pressure washer?  PSI, tip type, etc.

Thanks.

[Cedarman]

We use a gas powered one with lots of pressure.  Got it from the tractor supply store. Use a narrow tip and hold a few inches away.  Too close and you can cut the wood fibers.  Experiment with it.  I usually run it long ways a few feet , then 90 degrees.  Have the pressure washer running as the tree hits the ground is best.   A few days and the sap under the bark turns to glue.  Lots of splatter.

[Walt900]

Thanks Cedarman.  Hope to have the trees cut and at least one de-barked today.

[Walt900]

First two trees are cut and just did a pressure wash/de-bark test.  Couple questions.

How aggressive should I be with the pressure wash?  Outer bark appears to strip easily.  Under the bark I see a thin layer of redish-pink material.  Under that is white, which I guess is the sap wood.  Do I strip through the red-pink layer to the sap wood, or just enough to remove the stringy bark?

What next?  Should I use a wire brush to clean up the remaining bark stings and smooth the surface?

Logs will get an oil based stain once installed in the ground.

Thanks!

[okmulch]

Cedarman is on hiatus so I am filling in for him. (I am his son)
You need to peel the redish pink material also, but do not get to close or you will gouge the wood.

You can use a sander instead of pressure washer to get redish pink material off.
Let the logs dry good and then use an air sander if you have one if not a power sander will work.
Use screwdriver to get bark off around knots and ingrown.

[Walt900]

Thank you for the reply and help.

Made great progress today.  I was comtemplating your sanding suggestion while looking at the logs and started peeling back strips of bark with my fingers.  Got me thinking a bit more, so I went to the shed and got a short handled straight edge shovel. 

With the shovels edge, long thin strips were removed by going parallel to the log.  Larger sections were removed by going perpendicular to the log or around the circumference. 

Still need some detail work in the folds and around knots.

Not sure if the pressure washing made the bark easy to remove or its just the natural if the material.

Any idea how long the log should air dry before applying wood preservative or stain?

[Cedarman]

I would give it a couple weeks in warm weather.  Keep out of sun to minimize cracking.

[Walt900]

Hello again Cedarman.

Thanks for the info.

Stripped another log today.  I used no pressure washing this time.  Just used the shovel to de-bark.  No difference that I could tell in whether I used water or not.

Logs are a bit sticky which I hope will not interfer with the application of stain.  I believe I'll wait unti the logs are in the ground before I apply stain to the upper sections.

Next step is to try to remove branch stubs by sanding those areas.