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Author Topic: White Oak Floor on Heated Slab  (Read 2555 times)

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Offline ljmathias

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Re: White Oak Floor on Heated Slab
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2010, 05:57:24 am »
Hey, Handy Andy who's name is "Jim," question on the pads: were they laid edge to edge or was there space in between to let the subfloor breath a little?  Thanks.

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Offline DR_Buck

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Re: White Oak Floor on Heated Slab
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2010, 06:30:58 am »
My floor originally had parquet glued to concrete when we bought the place.   After we scraped it off there was lots of tar/glue residue in the concrete that could not be remover.   I put 6 mil plastic sheet over the concrete, then screwed 3/4 T&G plywood down with tapcon screws.  Cover the whole thing with carpet 13 years ago.  Haven't had a problem.   

The next remodel which is starting real soon I'm taking up ceramic tile in the kitchen and screwing down plywood again this time covered with bamboo flooring.    The wife does not want ceramic in the kitchen anymore.

BTW - My slab does not have underfloor heat. 
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Offline Don_Papenburg

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Re: White Oak Floor on Heated Slab
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2010, 11:39:21 pm »
Radiant heat will  radiate through an air space and wood.  As i started to build my house I just heated the basement with radiant infloor .  My basement temp was 70  the first floor was about 65  from the basement heat radiating through the 3/4 ply subfloor.     Air gaps have little effect on radiant heat   Wood has slightly more effect than air.

Put the radiant heat in the slab  fasten 3/4 ply over  CIS membrane  This will keep water from migrating .   Put your slab over extruded poly  insulation board put the pex on top of the foam concrete over that so the pex is at the bottom of the concrete  ( no danger of nail or screw holes)   
Then you can use the oak .  Quarter sawn no wider than 3 inch before it is T&Ged     Set you floor temp for no more than 85 and keep it there for the heating season.   Put the thermal couple in the floor and the thermastat  hidden  Then put in a placebo  thermastat  on the wall.   In a differant circuit you can have a baseboard heat  to make up room heat if needed,  I don't think you will though.
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Offline sbishop

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Re: White Oak Floor on Heated Slab
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2010, 11:11:10 am »
 Don_Papenburg

I'm on the same boat as jlmccuan wanting hardwood over concrete radiant heat.

I've got a garage that is attached to the house that will be converted into a family/tv room. it has radiant heat in the concreate. In the house now, we have lots of tile...i'm starting not to like tile. So i have thinking maybe it would be possible to put down some hardwood.

 Don_Papenburg, how do you suggest attaching the wood to concrete? subfloor or glue direct to concrete.

Thanks
SBishop

Offline Tug Hill Walt

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Re: White Oak Floor on Heated Slab
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2010, 02:04:32 pm »
Another possible solution:Recessed slab, use foil-bubble-foil insulation, Snap in tubing holders and 2x sleepers. 5/8 subfloor and your finish floor. This is basically the same system as in a conventional home over a cellar or crawlspace. Just think of it as just having a really, really low cellar.

Offline StephenRice

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Re: White Oak Floor on Heated Slab
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2010, 07:13:10 am »
Wow, Jim.  You have a LOT of opinions and suggestions here, so I am hesitant to even throw another one in the pot.  As a building contractor, I have put down a wood floor or two over the years.  Most of those were glue down or nail / staple down applications.  However, in your case, I would suggest neither.

First of all, congratulations on your decision to build an earth sheltered house!  That alone should greatly reduce your heating and cooling costs. 

I would NOT pour the kitchen slab separately from the rest of the house slab if you can pour it at once and still have the recess that your floor requires.  That would only promote cracks around the edge and a place for moisture and termites to come up.  Keep the slab continuous and also the plastic vapor barrier under the slab.  That is especially important around wood floors.  You need a dry slab under there.

I question the amount of benefit that in-floor radiant heating system would have under at least 3/4" of oak flooring in an already underground or earth protected home.  Is it really needed in the kitchen area?  How large is your kitchen and how open of a floor plan do you have?  Perhaps something as simple as a ceiling fan might help air flow and distribute heat from the other rooms where there is in-floor heating?  The cold feet syndrome would definitely be more pronounced over concrete or tile than over wood.  Perhaps it may not even be necessary if the kitchen is not too large?  Also, would you normally have small rugs in areas where you would stand for a while, such as in front of the kitchen sink or countertop where food prep would occur?  That would not only pad the floor for extended standing, but also keep the feet warm with or without radiant heating.

Regardless of whether or not you use radiant heat in the kitchen area, you still have to remember that kitchens and bathrooms share one trait... they are high moisture areas where water inevitably gets on the floor from time to time.  So, expansion and contraction is a situation that you will have to face no matter what.

Those things taken into consideration, whether you use the radiant heat in the floor or not, my recommendation is the same.  First, when pouring the concrete, make sure that you have a good continuous vapor barrier extending under the whole slab and pour the slab as a monolithic structure... in one piece.  Recess the slab for the depth of your flooring (usually 3/4") plus about another 1/8" to 1/4" for one or two layers of rolled foam flooring underlayment.

Install your cabinets on top of plywood or shims.  The flooring should NOT extend under them.  Instead of nailing or glueing your flooring, I would suggest that you get router or shaper bits (depends on whether you are using a full shaper or just a router table to mold your flooring edges) that provide a snap-lock joint rather than a standard flat tongue and groove joint.  That way, you can install your flooring as a floating floor instead of a glue down or nail down application.  This will allow your flooring to expand and contract with the temperature and humidity / moisture fluctuations (like when water is splashed on the floor or you want to mop it) without binding and warping and such.

Of course, like the others said earlier, a quarter sawn profile that has a face width of about 2 1/4" to 2 1/2" (not counting the tongue) will be much more stable than a wide flat sawn board.  After milling the floor with the snap-lock tongue, simply install the floor directly over one layer of foam wood flooring underlayment.  You do not need to glue or nail anything, but leave a small gap of about 3/8" - 1/2" around the perimeter of your flooring to allow for expansion and contraction.  Of course, you must have your flooring very dry (6-8%, the dryer the better) before installation.  When you are finished, either buy or mill your own transition piece for covering the gap where the wood floor adjoins the stained concrete floor, and also install base and quarter round or shoe moulding around the edges of the room and under the edges of the cabinets to cover the edge gaps there as well.

Use a very good polyurethane sealer over the floor and that will help with the moisture as well. 

A guy that used to work for me years ago also was a professional skater and ran multiple skating rinks.  Once a year, they would refinish their floors with a product my friend called Roll-On.  Basically, it was a tough epoxy.  The beauty of the product was very little prep work other than a quick sanding and cleaning of the floors was necessary, it was super tough, very high gloss, and looked great.  It did not hurt that the product was simply and quickly rolled onto the floor with big paint rollers and then settled down into any cracks and self leveled.  He used the stuff to refinish his oak floors at home too.  Looked great.  Not overly expensive either.  You can use standard floor polyurethane, which will look great also, but it will not provide the water and moisture resistance and toughness that Roll-On will.  Their Ultra_Clear product will probably be your best bet.  It is a step up from the regular Roll-On that is used on most quality skating rinks.  The nice thing about using a Roll-On finish for your oak floors in a kitchen is that it is highly water resistant compared to other finishes and takes wear and abuse really well.

You can read a little bit about their products here:  http://www.roll-on.com/floor_coatings.htm

Here is a list of distributors across the U.S.:  http://www.roll-on.com/distribu.htm

For what it is worth, I hope this helps you some...
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Offline jlmccuan

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Re: White Oak Floor on Heated Slab
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2010, 12:18:57 am »
Every time I check there is just more and better info.  I was a skater and wonder what product was used.  Are the snap together tooling bits available any where in particular?

Can anyone give a blow by blow description of quartersawing a log?
Thanks again.

Offline Hilltop366

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Re: White Oak Floor on Heated Slab
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2010, 10:18:18 am »

Put the radiant heat in the slab  fasten 3/4 ply over  CIS membrane  This will keep water from migrating .   Put your slab over extruded poly  insulation board put the pex on top of the foam concrete over that so the pex is at the bottom of the concrete  ( no danger of nail or screw holes)   


It is recommended to lift up the pipe and screen it is fastened to a few inches, then push back down when pouring the floor to make sure the concrete goes all the way around the in-floor heat tubing for the best heat transfer from the pipe to the concrete. From experience I can tell you that it does happen, I have seen as much as 3/8" of pipe exposed under the concrete even though the tubing was sitting on top of a steel mesh so it was not touching the foam insulation.

I am not sure if this has been mentioned yet or not, but another thought would be to put to the floor you want, the way you want it (lot of forgiveness for the joints) and put a generous toe kick (maybe 6") under your cabinets and put a hot air system in it ( using some hot water baseboard finned tubing and a small fan with duct work) to keep kitchen and floor/feet warm. I would still put the in-floor as well.

It will be interesting to hear what you do in the end.

Offline scsmith42

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Re: White Oak Floor on Heated Slab
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2010, 11:30:01 am »

Can anyone give a blow by blow description of quartersawing a log?
Thanks again.

The best thing would be to do a search in the archives - there are lots of posts on quartersawing.

Several years ago I read some information on another forum posted by someone that had been doing wide plank flooring over radiant heating for 15 plus years.  Their tact was to use very thin boards (around 3/8" thick or less), glued down to the slab with an excellent adhesive.  Obviously quartersawing would be preferred. 

They posted some pix of a 15 year old floor and it looked great.

This flys in the face of conventional wisdom though, and I have not yet personally tried this approach.  It made sense to me though.  Just sharing it as an idea.

Offline phuss

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Re: White Oak Floor on Heated Slab
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2010, 07:38:18 am »
I'll give my 2 cents worth....as a radiant floor designer, we have found that installing WarmBoard (or a generic knockoff) on top of ur slab, and then installing your wood flooring to the WarmBoard works really well. We do like to install 1" of foam between the slab and WarmBoard.

Offline John Mc

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Re: White Oak Floor on Heated Slab
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2010, 05:08:56 pm »
What's "WarmBoard"?
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Offline Magicman

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Re: White Oak Floor on Heated Slab
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2010, 08:29:05 am »
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