Shovel logging

[WvLogHauler]

 In the part of West Virginia i'm in , most logging is done with cables winched from dozers or skidders ,, parts of the terrain are very , very steep.

 Being that i helped a friend once before with a logging operation , doing it this way , I wasn't impressed to say the least ,, it simply wears out even the best of men going up and down the slopes pulling a cable and chokers.

 I've thought about going back logging myself , reviewing different types of equipment. A shovel logger looks impressive , but only looks feasable if the timber can be felled to a bench where it can be reached by the equipment. I saw a 230 John Deere excavator with a Hultdins grapple saw that looked impressive , i think if it had been " high and wide " , it would have been more effective. Being not a " hoe " man myself , I don't know the limitations of working a machine of this sort on a slope and wonder about the safety of the machine and operator doing that anyway.  But I do know , i have no intention of just using a cable and chokers this time.

 The Timberline delimber with its articulating cab looks like it would be more applicable , but parts support may be lacking in this area. Processing in the woods , with the many different types of product thats required here , i just don't think is practical. So the reach and slope capabilities of the Timberline looks attractive , but the processing abilities would be useless. Is there a machine that can work on a slope to retrieve a felled tree , like the Timberline , but just be equipped to top the tree and place it close enough to a bench where it could be reached by a Cat TSK grapple type machine or grapple skidder ?

 Having observed a skidder in operation before , 540, 640 648 JD's and a Cat 525 ,, they really don't seem to get enough done for me. I have wondered about the possibility of placing a set of log bunks on a articulating type off road truck with a prentice 120 type log loader to increase the size of skids and decrease cycle times of skidding.
Of course the quality of skid roads would have to be a premium for this type of skidding equipment , but i think it would be worth it. I've observed articulating ( lizard ) trucks hauling up hill , so it should be able to pull full length trees as well. I feel the log bunks would have to swing a limited amount to help with cornering the vehicle with its load  and maybe be able to roll front to back assisting with elevation changes. It could be able to load itself , gather trees along its path , and could even be equipped with a winch to perform all functions in the woods to remove and transport trees to the landing if need be.

With the increase of workers comp in this area , If I'm going to go back into this,  anything and everything is off the table to increase production per man.

 any comments or suggestions would be apreciated , thank you.

[WDH]

I am not aware of shovel loaders being used on steep slopes.  In the West, the cable logging systems are used on steep slopes and the shovels are used on the less steep terrain.

[SwampDonkey]

I worked on the west coast and we only used hoe chucking on sensitive ground and it wasn't steep. Most everything else was grapple yarder and supersnorkel. Some Heli-logging on the steepest of ground >60%, but not a lot of acreage where I was. Most Heli-logging we laid out was canceled by the Ministry of Forests because of terrain, mostly the gullies that might cause a side hill to wash away if it got loaded with debris. And to Heli-log, it had to be nice timber. In our case is was usually 220+ foot tall Sitka spruce. Sometimes heli-logging is used where it isn't steep either, but too sensitive for machines. Seen some nice spruce along the Naden River, but no touch. 

Most of those big spruce on those hills seeded in on old slide fans.

[captain_crunch]

it would MORTIFY  you the ground they work with shovels here in Oreg. A shovel will go places a Dozer can't come close to going . remember center of grav is about same with a shovel as Cat  Opperator just has his butt higher off ground

[SwampDonkey]

Keep your seat belt on.  Lots of pucker to.

[oldseabee]

I think you need to look at tracked feller buncher like Tiger Cat, John Deere Etc. they have under carriage like a shovel/excavator but the cab is on a pivot and cylinders so it can be leveled  regardless of the slope that the tracks are on. As far as the articulaed truck with a log bunk, Bell Equipment out of South Africa built that on a 25 ton Artic. They are partly owned by Deere and built a lot of ADT's for Deere, don't know if they are available here. Next best thing would be a forwarder, basically front end of a skidder and back end a bunk with a loader mounted on it.

[captain_crunch]

Forwarders work ok on moterate grades but got to remember when you find that unknown hole the load don't go away. With a shovel you can let go and dog boom into ground and regroupe

[arojay]

Have you looked at a cable show?  There are 'mini' towers out there that may be a good alternative as well as hoe based cable systems.

[captain_crunch]

Cable or high lead tower had lots more overhead than Tractor or shovel logging. That is why all the yarder outfitts got all the summer Cat logging jobs they could to offset yarder logging. Also in summer Tractor logging is allowed to opperate while Fire season had cable logging shut down due to fire starting problems

[Gary_C]

  I have wondered about the possibility of placing a set of log bunks on a articulating type off road truck with a prentice 120 type log loader to increase the size of skids and decrease cycle times of skidding.

You are talking about a forwarder. They will go on fairly steep and rough ground with an experienced driver, especially with those articulating bogie wheels.

[critter]

    I don't know way you would want to build a truck for skidding large loads
    off road. Tigercat,Deere,Cat and many other companys build six wheel and
    tracked clam bunk machines that forward a truck laod at a time. Up down
    or side ways the better ones have a loader on them

[WvLogHauler]

 i tell you why i would consider building a off road truck like that ,,, i've saw forwarders , they're slow , those articulated trucks cycle alot quicker ,  a forwarder is also very expensive to be that slow , you can find a used articulated truck , and convert it yourself ,  i've saw articulated trucks haul up hill faster than most skidders travel on level ground pulling a decent load , i've never saw the 6 wheel skidders in operation , but i doubt they could keep up with an articulated truck , you might be able to work one with a grapple skidder to short haul to this vehicle to ease road making for such a large vehicle ,

 with the workers comp situation , like i said , anything in on the table if i go back into this

[WvLogHauler]

it would MORTIFY  you the ground they work with shovels here in Oreg. A shovel will go places a Dozer can't come close to going . remember center of grav is about same with a shovel as Cat  Opperator just has his butt higher off ground

 i've watched them do right of ways for power lines and gases lines here in this area ,,, a hoe can do slope work for sure , but if i go that route , i don't want it in a constant threat of being destroyed , if an operator however good , makes a simple mistake ,  I see alot of Link Belt models for sale in the western equipment traders , all models of JD's ,, saw one 200 JD with a winch  and a grapple , , that looks very interesting ,

[Bobus2003]

i tell you why i would consider building a off road truck like that ,,, i've saw forwarders , they're slow , those articulated trucks cycle alot quicker ,  a forwarder is also very expensive to be that slow , you can find a used articulated truck , and convert it yourself ,  i've saw articulated trucks haul up hill faster than most skidders travel on level ground pulling a decent load , i've never saw the 6 wheel skidders in operation , but i doubt they could keep up with an articulated truck , you might be able to work one with a grapple skidder to short haul to this vehicle to ease road making for such a large vehicle ,

 with the workers comp situation , like i said , anything in on the table if i go back into this

Sure not saying that it cant be done.. But gotta think that the Forwarder companies have put in good time and money into R&D on there machines.. so they may be slow for your tastes, but they actually move rather quick in the woods, and are designed for hauling wood in the woods over logging trails, not being on a Quarry road hauling gravel like an off-road truck is

[WvLogHauler]

 an articulated truck doesn't take much of a prepp'd road to run on , i was looking at a Terex model , i think it had a 400 hp engine , it would use some fuel , but , look how much more it would typically haul than a skidder

 logging around here is mostly done on a small basis , and , i think its why alot of them have one foot in bankruptcy court constantly ,,, they just don't really run enough wood ,, i constantly heard them saying , " well i can make it if i " just " run so many loads " ,,,

 some feller bunchers are around , there is a couple " jammers " running up north that i'd like to go watch ,

 i've been thinking of ways to operate a night shift as well ,

 the pattern of how most people around here operate , i'm not interested in because from what i've observed , they stay too close to the fire for going out of business ,, has to be a better way ,,

 very few clear cuts around here , most select , 14 " chest high of the typical male they want the tree cut if its hard wood , hard wood pulp is starting to become an available product here , before it just didn't pay enough ,

 most mills around only take logs on day shift , which also limits trucking , poplar " peeler " plants offer later hours and soft wood pulp is 24 hr availability

 hard wood log sizes mandate 3 bunk trailers with bunk spacing where 8ft hard wood  logs and 9 ft peelers  can be hauled , typically on top capping a bunk , in the middle bunk, or whatever combination works for the load. I personally think a 38 ft trailer would be ideal , could haul 3 bunks of 12ft logs , which i believe get a more fair scale than 16's , and a 38 ft is still good for pulp which i've found you can cut 21 ft pulp lengths and mix and match pieces with the long 21 ft on the back of the trailer and make up the difference with the short pieces on the front , or 3 bunk the bottom with short pieces and cap with larger for the top of the load ,, a 3 bunk loaded trailer seems to have less " crack the whip " effect when loaded compared to a 2 bunk ,, it just feels more solid going down the road and through curved sections of roads ,,,,  of course 38 ft trailers aren't popular in this area , 36 and 42 seem to dominate , so i'll have to special order that too

[Jamie_C]

If you plan on doing select cuts then how do you plan on building a haul road suitable for your homemade machine to operate on without doing a lot of damage to the standing trees root systems ? Also even just stumping out a haul road for whats basically a dump truck is going to be expensive and will require ongoing maintenance to prevent rutting.

If you plan on running this contraption with a loader on it like a clam bunk skidder or a forwarder then you will probably need a massive and very expensive upgrade to the hydraulic system. You are also going to probably want dual driving controls so you can sit backwards like in a forwarder so you can run the loader if you put one on it.

Don't forget that your machine is probably going to weigh considerably more than any purpose built forestry machine, won't have a transmission that is geared for forest terrain, won't have proper guarding on fuel tanks, hydraulic tanks, etc, etc, etc

There is a reason that there is purpose built forestry equipment in a wide variety of sizes, they are designed to withstand the abuse that comes with working in the forest environment.

[oldseabee]

Most ADT's won't have FOPS certification which is required on logging equipment, the have ROPS certified cabs. You probably couldn't even get Insurance on an ADT without a lot of modification along with the guarding package someone mentioned above.

[captain_crunch]

WvLH
Even tho I love the old Link Belt 98 HI Walker Shovel (antique Cable machine) LB hyd machines ain't much  JD,Thunderbird and Kelbco seem to be the pouplar machines here on West Coast

[WvLogHauler]

If you plan on doing select cuts then how do you plan on building a haul road suitable for your homemade machine to operate on without doing a lot of damage to the standing trees root systems ? Also even just stumping out a haul road for whats basically a dump truck is going to be expensive and will require ongoing maintenance to prevent rutting.

If you plan on running this contraption with a loader on it like a clam bunk skidder or a forwarder then you will probably need a massive and very expensive upgrade to the hydraulic system. You are also going to probably want dual driving controls so you can sit backwards like in a forwarder so you can run the loader if you put one on it.

Don't forget that your machine is probably going to weigh considerably more than any purpose built forestry machine, won't have a transmission that is geared for forest terrain, won't have proper guarding on fuel tanks, hydraulic tanks, etc, etc, etc

There is a reason that there is purpose built forestry equipment in a wide variety of sizes, they are designed to withstand the abuse that comes with working in the forest environment.

 i don't know if you've ever loaded a JD 640 Skidder on a low boy , but it is about as wide as an articulated truck ,,,  if an articulated truck can dump 30-40 tons or rock and dirt ,, i bet its hyd system can lift a 3000 lb tree ,,,   but that will be something that has to be worked out

 a forwarder is toooooo slowwww to be that expennsive ,, i've saw some forwarders that can climb slopes , thats why i guess it sacrifices so much speed ,, i dunno ,, they just don't appear to be worth as much as they cost ,, we don't process in the woods around here , too many species and different size products to do that ,  you can go from a  8 foot hard wood log , 9 ft tie log or 9 ft peeler to 21 ft pulp wood , it would be a nightmare gathering that up IMO with a forwarder , then unloading and stacking , then loading again on the truck ,, alot of time down the drain

[bill m]

 i don't know if you've ever loaded a JD 640 Skidder on a low boy , but it is about as wide as an articulated truck ,,,  if an articulated truck can dump 30-40 tons or rock and dirt ,, i bet its hyd system can lift a 3000 lb tree ,,,   but that will be something that has to be worked out

 a forwarder is toooooo slowwww to be that expennsive ,, i've saw some forwarders that can climb slopes , thats why i guess it sacrifices so much speed ,, i dunno ,, they just don't appear to be worth as much as they cost ,, we don't process in the woods around here , too many species and different size products to do that ,  you can go from a  8 foot hard wood log , 9 ft tie log or 9 ft peeler to 21 ft pulp wood , it would be a nightmare gathering that up IMO with a forwarder , then unloading and stacking , then loading again on the truck ,, alot of time down the drain
[/quote]
So how is your machine going to be different than a forwarder and what will it do that a forwarder can't do?