problem with checking/splitting

[REGULAR GUY]

Howdy,    Hope I'm in the right spot. I need advice and I thank ya'll in advance. I milled some fresh cut Ponderosa Pine into 8" by 8" cants, stored them out of the sun in a two sided shelter with a roof , they are not stacked on top of each other but the wind can get to them cuz of only two sides. They are checked/split  almost halfway thru the entire length (8 foot) of them. What am I doin wrong, is it the wind???

         Thanks everybody,      Regular Guy                                                                                                                                                                                                       

[james]

did you end seal the cants if they can dry from the ends they will dry tooo fast and check you want them to dry from the sides
james

[John Mc]

Probably wouldn't hurt to have them dry out of the sun as well...

[PC-Urban-Sawyer]

If your cants contain the heart of the log they WILL develop major checking, especially if they're drying fast.

Herb

[WDH]

Sounds like they are drying too fast.  Because of the thickness of the beams, the outside drys while the inside is still wet.  The movement of moisture out of the center is not as fast as the movement of moisture from the outer shell, and this sets up stress.  The only way for that stress to be relieved is for checks and splits to form.  The only way that you can deal with this is to dry the beams slowly.  This situation is the real issue with thick green timbers.

[Den Socling]

While drying too fast can contribute to checks (cracks) especially in hardwoods, Herb is probably correct with the heart being in your 8 x 8's. Roughly, the face of the cant will shrink twice as much as from outside in. If your cants contain heart, you will see more and deeper cracks on the face nearest the heart.

[jim king]

I stand my square cuts on end for a few weeks and have very few problems.

[REGULAR GUY]

Thanks  all very much,
    I've already got them out of the sun so sounds like I gotta do something with the wind for slower drying. I'll experiment standing some of these on end and see what happens. I didn't seal the ends which I'll do. I'm still in the basics of all this so I really appreciate all the responses.  Hope things are pickin up for ya'll........it's slow out here.
 Thanks again,
  Regular Guy

[Okrafarmer]

I'm a newbie here too, but I just would like to ask, is it not good to use the heartwood for the center of a beam? If you are cutting structural beams, do you not want to be using the heartwood? This may not have been RG's purpose with his cants-- he may have been saving them to mill some more later, I don't know. But anybody want to shed a little light on whether to use heartwood when sawing structural beams-- and should the pith or center sapling rings be right down the middle of your beam?

[Tom]

Sawing with the pith centered (boxed heart) is the approved method to saw posts, etc because of the like stress on the length of the piece. It does make it more susceptible to checks (splitting).  A certain amount of checking is allowed without compromising the strength of the timber.  The only way to control checking is speed of drying.  Even then, some should be expected.

Whether the pith is in the beam or not is dependent upon the use of the beam.  If all beams were boxed heart, you would be limited to one per log.  That doesn't make good economical sense.

The better beams will have the grain more at a 90 degree angle to two of the faces.  The installation of the beam might be decided by the weight load and the expected movement of the beam as it ages. Both of these are dependent upon grain orientation.

For aesthetic purposes, a beam might be sawed with Rift grain, even though the risk of twist is great. Rift makes the visual image of the grain the same on all sides of the timber.

If you are cutting fence posts, it might not make difference how you saw timbers as long as you get the most from the log.  If you are cutting for structure, grain is important and the selection of the timber will depend upon it. 

Whether heartwood is kept in a beam usually makes no difference.  When it does, the excuse is that the sapwood is more pliable than the heartwood (usually considered to be more brittle).  A timber like this is called free of heart.  Most people who ask for Free of Heart timbers are really asking that there be no pith in it rather than there be no heartwood.  If you get the request, it would behoove you to determine what the customer is meaning.

"Should the pith or center sapling rings be right down the midle of your beam?"  Yes, that would define it as a boxed heart beam and would insure that the stresses on one side counter balanced the stress on the other side, preventing, or minimizing bending or crook.

[StephenRice]

What do you guys think of him not only sealing the ends of the cants, but also stacking the cants with good stickers and covering or wrapping the pile in plastic sheeting or, better yet, a tarp?  If the pile were covered and the sides of the tarp or plastic were held down on the ground with something, moisture could still escape, albeit slowly, into the ground or wherever air can get in and out.  Tarps often can breathe a bit as well.  The biggest problem that I can foresee that would have to be watched out for is possibly mildew. Uncovering the stack every now and then when it is dry outside to dissipate accumulated moisture might help eliminate that threat until the moisture content is low enough to prevent it.

What do you all think?

[WDH]

Wrapping the stack with plastic or a tarp will trap too much moisture and cause the wood to ruin in 99% of cases.

[ljmathias]

Mold, rot, maybe spalting but probably just mushy wood that won't even burn.  You really got to have airflow, and the more the better after you end-seal.  Good luck.

Lj

[StephenRice]

I had sen something on the web about people using plastic to wrap lumber, but I am sure that they had to watch the moisture issue closely.  Something that I just read on a paper by a guy at Virginia Tech (http://csfs.colostate.edu/cowood/library/02_Part_II_Operating_an_Effective_Air_Dry.pdf)suggested what I think is a better alternative, using shade cloth or burlap.  That would allow the stack to breathe to allow the moisture to escape, but also slow down the airflow to help prevent the wood defects issues.  If burlap is hard to find nowadays, you can buy the shade cloth in wide strips by the foot or roll from places like Lowe's out in the outside garden department.  If not using the shade cloth to cover the stack, at least it could be used to shade the stack and keep off rain by installing it on those open sides of the building that he was talking about.  Keeping the direct sunlight and rain off of the stack will at least help to control the drying process rather than having wild expansion and contraction issues from alternating direct sunlight with rain (or rain mist) hitting the stack.

[ljmathias]

You may be over-thinking this drying issue.  I've used plywood, plastic roofing and best of all, metal roofing.  With the last, I try to have half to a full foot overhang to keep the ran mostly off.  I sticker with 1X material which seems to give plenty of airflow.  Key is to have something waterproof on top but not directly on top- lifted a couple of inches.  Lumber will dry just about at the right rate (at least here, winter or summer) with very little checking.  Sure there will be some, but that may happen no matter what you do: wood has a mind of its own (and you may ask where?  but I'm not allowed to divulge that information) and some will check, some bow, some bend, crook, and do all kinds of weird stuff- not much you can do about it really.  Mill oversize and plane it down- works pretty good for the quality stuff I make (no laughter from the peanut gallery- and what show was that from?).

Key is to get it stickered and stacked as fast as possible.  Just did a huge pecan log, got busy and left some of it stacked on the mill for two days: white mold everywhere!  Some so bad it stuck the boards together.  Bleached it (water plus bleach), then used the antifreeze plus boric acid plus borax mix- wood doesn't mold anymore, and should keep the powder post beetles at bay- I hope.  Sure hate to loose that beautiful lumber- pecan is hard as nails, but boy does it look nice!

Anyway, good luck and report back what you do and find out.

Lj

[StephenRice]

Yeah, I really like pecan as well.  I hate to see so many orchards going to waste around here though.  Many around here have been abandoned or turned into homesteads, which is fine, but many don't care for the trees and harvest the pecans as much anymore.  Seems like such a waste.  I love pecans!  And, for the trees that do need to come down, I hate to see them used for regular firewood. They are better sawn up fo furniture and the smaller stuff for BBQ!  Okay, okay, I guess some of the smaller stuff can go in the wood stove... it does burn good.

[WDH]

LJ,

The powder post beetles love pecan as much as we do .

[ljmathias]

Don't know about you, but I tend to eat mostly sawdust, not the lumber itself, but to each his own... if it tastes good to you and your teeth don't break, lots of fiber there, keep you good and regular, I'd guess.   

Lj

[ArcFault]

I did some research on the internet and found what I would try for my wood.  Another thing I was thinking would be those little sheds you can buy at wall-mart or canadian tire. They are those tarped one vehicle sheds. I was going to stack them in there and leave both ends open. Would that work?



I just needed someone to mill it for me. I went to the guy down the street from me. I asked him if I payed for fuel and helped him saw for the next few weekends if that could be an even deal for the lumber I needed cut. He wasn't having it. He wanted CASH. A lot to. You guys charge hourly or by plank when you do it? And how much? I was offering to help to. Not just make my order and leave.

[StephenRice]

I think that those little tarped portable garages would be good, especially if you seal the ends of your wood.  The only thing that you would have to worry about is if you are in an area that gets a lot of snow.  Build up of snow on the top of one of those things could cause them to collapse or get damaged somehow.  Other than that, they should be great.

[ArcFault]

Ohh, lots of snow here. Northern Ontario...

[StephenRice]

Ohh, lots of snow here. Northern Ontario...

You could still use it.  You would just have to be careful to go out and sweep the snow off of the top once in a while to keep it from building up and getting too heavy, that is all.

[ArcFault]

Ohh, lots of snow here. Northern Ontario...

You could still use it.  You would just have to be careful to go out and sweep the snow off of the top once in a while to keep it from building up and getting too heavy, that is all.

Awesome, I had just bought one to and my girlfriend was all like. "What you ever going to use that for." All I had was, "Something, AND IT WAS ON SALE!"