swamp logging

[jim king]

I am in  full arguement with local authotities over wether it is possible to drag logs1.5 miles to 8  miles  in swampland using a skidder.  I have had the experience and dont ever want to repeat it.

My experience has been that pulling a log more than half a hour makes the cost excesive and a half an hour here is very fast.  Here of course we have no frozen or solid ground and skidder logging is a real problem both physically and cost wise.

If you lived here in the biggest swamp/rain forest in the world what would you suggest as to a way to do mechanized logging ?¿  Crossing countless creeks, low lands and hopefully get to a river bank.  One of our biggest problems is that the logging concessions that the government is renting out are miles from a river and the costs of extraction and maintaining a road in the mud and almost daily rain is prohibitive.

Suggestions ¿?  How do yo do it ?  Our basic forestry law is a copy of a law designed for hard frozen land winter logging so you can imagine the results here in the biggest swamp in the world.

I am looking for suggestions as we have a meeting coming up in a few days about this problem.  A logging trail is usually good for one or two trips and then the tractor belly is dragging in the mud so the damage to the jungle is a lot.  The biggest problem is that it is simply not profitable for the skidder owners.

 



 

[Papa1stuff]

Helicopters

[Sawyerfortyish]

Where I am it is against the law to cut anything or enter with machinery within 300 ft of wet lands. If your caught you face thousands of $$$ of fines. But as in your case living in one of the biggest swamps in the world I'll second the idea of heli logging

[Kevin]

Jim, can you set up a remote logging camp, bring the mill closer to the trees and fly the lumber out on pallets?

[ellmoe]

 I was involved in swamp logging for several years (cypress and hardwoods). It's very difficult to economically log for normal value trees if they are located much further than a mile. We used rubber tired skidders, track machines ("go-tracs"), high lift cables, and helicopters. Usually the ground based machines could pull about half a mile and then they would over heat. So we set up a system with two units, one dragging the load half way and then dropping off for the other unit to pull the remaining leg. The first machine would "cool-off" on its return trip. This works with rubber tired machines (running very wide tires or duals) or the track machines. Expensive logging and tough to afford unless you start with some close timber and cut your way to the back. This way your average pull is a half mile. High cable logging is less expensive and will work if you have enough timber to make it worth setting up. We set up in a "high ground" location and would pull the timber to that point. We would make runs out from there like spokes on a wheel. All the the timber under the pulls would have to be cut so that the skid trails would be clear.  I don't believe we every went more than a half mile with this method. I was only involved on one site with this method. Heicopters are REAL expensive and the support required to mantain them is very high. An experienced logger pilot is a MUST. You also need choker setters and ground crews that know what they are doing. We only hired experienced crews and let them do the work on a contract basis.

    If you're  logging isolated trees, with extremely high value, helo logging is probably your best bet. The crews in the NW USA shut down for the winter and might be available. Ground skidding a few trees from miles away , with no pre-existing trails, in a swamp, isprobably not economically feasible. Of course a  tree worth its weight in gold might be an exception.

Mark

[stonebroke]

A ARDCO forwarder might be the answer.

Stonebroke

[timberjack240]

44 inch swamp tires

[mad murdock]

Depending on the value of the timber, as said, Heli-logging could be a viable alternative.  A call to Columbia Helicopters in Aurora ORE, or Croman Inc. of White City, ORE could give you an ideal of the cost per hour of such an operation.  Keep in mind, a Vertol 234 (Columbia's larger model), can lift about 28,000+ per turn, and depending on site set-up and distance, a turn can be pretty quick.  It is not uneard of a heli-crew to move HUGE amounts of wood in a day.  Even a smaller ship lke a K-Max can move 4,000-5,000 lbs per turn, and of course cost per hour is less than a Vertol or an S-61(Croman).  An S-61 can lift 7,00-11,000 or so per turn.  Being down there in Costa Rica, you may even be able to enlist the services of Canadian companies like VIH (Vancouver Island Helicopters), They have Kamov KA-32's for heavy lifting, which can move 14,000 lbs per pull.  For sure you won't make money hauling pulpwood with a helicopter, but if the job is set up right, it doesn't have to all be super high-grade timber to pay, as the speed of moving the wood is vastly increased over any other method, and best of all impact is at an absolute minimum, other than not cutting at all.

[stonebroke]

I think I read some place it costs about 6,000$ a hour for a chinook.

Stonebroke

[mad murdock]

I'm guessing that would be the price for a Vertol 107 ( the smaller version).  The 234 probably goes for closer to 10,000 an hour, as the skycrane (S-64) goes for about the same price.  helicopters are not cheap when looking at cost per hour, you have to compare the amount of work done in the same amount of time via ground based methods.  In the spraying world, a helicopter can cover the same acres in 1 hour that it takes a ground spray crew 3 weeks to accomplish, when comparing costs on a work accomplished basis, the helicopter comes out costing at least 3 times less than ground methods.  This is usually true for anything done by helicopter, i.e. drill rig positioning and set-up, spraying, fertilizing, logging, etc.

[fuzzybear]

   Jim,
   Can you use the end slabs from the mill to make a movable and repairable board walk across the really bad areas? This is what I'm doing in an area where if I don't have it in place I'm sunk to the frame.  I've seen where you have built a herringbone road. This could be built the same way but with slabs in small moveable sections that can be reclaimed and do very little damage to the soil. When built properly they can handle a lot of traffic and weight, but still be handled by hand.
   I've taken a 5t truck across loaded and it only squatted the "bridge" down to the soil level. If an area becomes damaged you just replace that section. When you leave you load it on the truck and take it to the next area.
   I hope this can help you in some way. Good luck. 
FB

p.s.  How did you make out with the tracks from Texas?

[jim king]

FB

The people with the tracks from Texas never answered-

[Eric B.]

Jim,
One of my swamp loggers here is able to do 1.5 mile drags with his TimberPro clambunk skidders. This is ofcourse done on a "road" of matted logs. I don't know how different your cost/benefit analysis is there in Peru as compared to South Carolina, but for the most part anything over a one mile drag will not make you any money. This may not be the case in Peru with the wood you're harvesting. He keeps pressure washers and ofcourse a tank/water truck on hand to help ensure that the machines do not overheat. For drags longer than 1.5 miles, it would be possible to use two of these machines, one to gather and pull to a halfway point, the next to pick up and pull to the deck. If necessary a pressure washing unit could be left at this halfway point to ensure cooling down of the machine. They also make tracks that can be fitted around the rubber tires for additional traction when needed.
What kind of rubber tire skidders did you use the first time you tried to skid (that you mentioned you did not want to repeat!)? What were the greatest difficulties you had and how much wood were you able to harvest?

[barbender]

A lot of northern Minnesota was logged with narrow guage railroads. You still see old rail grades around the woods. The railroads came about when all of the wood close to the rivers had been harvested (with horses). When the skids got too long to be profitable with horses, a rail line would be put in to reach back farther. It's all a matter of how value there is in the wood your harvesting. What about a big ATV and an arch on ATV tires. I know you are moving some big wood, but you can move a pretty good stick with a set up like that.

[Holmes]

  How about yarders and cabling?  Isn't that the way they did it in the old days with steam donkey engines? They moved logs over hills , valleys and fields suspended from cables.  Holmes

[timbuck2]

I think I'll stick with the -15 below, and the softwood is poppin!

[snowstorm]

an 8 wheel fowarder with the widest tires you can get along with tracks. dont know what your wood looks like so if you can put the brush in the trail an run on that

[Gary_C]

an 8 wheel fowarder with the widest tires you can get along with tracks. dont know what your wood looks like so if you can put the brush in the trail an run on that

I was just going to add the same recommendation. Those eight wheel forwarders with tracks on will go most anywhere with a good size load.

Here is one that will carry 30,000 lbs of payload. Ponsse Buffalo

And i even discovered they have a new one with 10 wheels. Ponsse 10W

[shelbycharger400]

u could get a short scale train. 


that video... shows that 7 1/4 in gauge   train pulling an easy 3000 lbs ! 


make your track removable and load the train on a flatbed when done.

STEAM!!!     o and yes... i did ask the wife a few months ago if i could have one....  answer...NO! 

[WH_Conley]

Shelby, flowers, candy?

[Norm]

You mean I'm using over kill with the diamonds and gold...geez Bill now you tell me!

[shelbycharger400]

wh conley...
flowers and candy isnt going to cut it.   Id have to make the train... so id HAVE to buy a mill and a lathe,   the wife is already on to me,  so id have to buy her SEVERAL things

those small trains are in the 30 k range .   im suprised that not many were around from what i can tell, altho  i have seen one up close and personal in wisconsin, it was a case 

 

[WH_Conley]

Maybe you need to put Norm's diamond in the box of candy.

[bill m]

A tracked machine could solve the problem of the soft ground but not the distances. Anything over a mile or two in a tracked machine would be painfully slow.

[shelbycharger400]

wh conley..
rock isnt goin to do it.
I think if i got her a 4 wheeler it would be game ON! (already clamed the 3 wheeler i got)

[lumberjack48]

You have plenty water, dig a trench an float'em out, use what available.

[Gary_C]

Anything over a mile or two in a tracked machine would be painfully slow.

You are right, tracked machines need short distances to landings cause they are rough riding and slow.

But the advantage of a rubber tired machine with steel tracks is they will go up to 15 MPH so you could go a mile in about 4 minutes. Doubt if you would go that fast in the woods unless you had a good road to travel, but they are far faster and smoother riding than a straight tracked machine. And on an eight wheeled machine, the bogey wheels smooth out the bumps.

[sjfarkas]

I would look at Helicopters.  If they can make it pay in CA then it could probably pay anywhere. 

[Maine372]

http://www.kmc-kootrac.com/

purpose built soft terrain machines. they come with a variety of attachments and cofigurations. they even sell refurbished units to help save costs.

just an option...

[snowstorm]

http://www.kmc-kootrac.com/

purpose built soft terrain machines. they come with a variety of attachments and cofigurations. they even sell refurbished units to help save costs.

just an option...

  cat has one in brewer. grapple on it looks kinda interesting