More Hack-N-Squirt

[Magicman]

I had a bit of mill trouble today, so I went over to the tree farm and Hack-N Squirted the Sweetgums where I planted the Cherrybark Oaks.

Since Arsenal is now $65 per quart, that is the herbicide that I am using this year.  I did some last week and they are already showing signs of "illness",.....

Also, I'm using a "Woodsman's Pal" for the hacking, and it's really doing a good job.  I can twist it and create a sort of cup with the bark which really holds the herbicide.....
 

[pasbuild]

Time fer a dumb question
why not harvest the trees for fire wood or some other use as apposed the hack-n-squirt

[Magicman]

Sweetgum doesn't make firewood.  I planted Cherrybark oaks in these plots, and killing the existing trees will remove the over-story.  Bottom line, I'm trading up for quality.

Here is an older thread:   http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,40625.0.html

It answered many questions.

[chevytaHOE5674]

Up north in the cold climate everything makes firewood. 

[Texas Ranger]

It would take a cord of oak to burn two sticks of sweetgum, we use it for back logs, saves the brick.

[SwampDonkey]

I have no opinion on your process and what your trying to accomplish. But, leave a few for the wood peckers I suppose and burn the rest. Have the hard hat handy when going  for a stroll in the woods in the aftermath. I know what the woods is like with all them dead white birch towering over your head while trying to thin the fir regrowth and walking over blow downs.

One question though, does sweet gum proliferate like weeds? I can imagine the flush of new gums coming up around them oak with the over story killed.

[Magicman]

My goal is for the dead and falling Sweetgums to provide a virtual jungle which will keep deer out.  This should protect the new Cherrybark red oaks from being rubbed by the bucks.

I cut the "momma" tree in 2005 which was seeding this area.....

[ljmathias]

Sweet gum is definitely an "invasive species" but then we have a lot of those down here.  I spend more time trying to control all the bush-trees that spring up around the bases of pines and oaks and pecans- I can hack and squirt, cut and squirt or just squirt and they just laugh and send up more shoots.  Only real solution is to dig up roots and all with a backhoe and you can't do that too close to a tree you want to keep...

Bottom line is: keep fighting and someday you'll die and it'll be your kids problem.

Lj

[Magicman]

I was not really pleased with the results of the Pathway that I used last year.  Some died.  Some put out shoots, which have then died this Spring.  Some appear to be living.

I do not have the time to re-do anything.  Done once, I expect it to stay done.  Arsenal this year. 

[woodtroll]

I understand about going in twice to get a good kill, but watch that soil activity. Arsenal will move from speciecs to species if the roots are close. Combine it with wet or moist soil it can be more of a problem.

The seedlings may not be big enough or have enough roots yet for it to be a problem. But I have seen stands with the arsenal hack and squirt used, it killed off a percentage of decent cherry bark crop trees.
I am hoping it does not happen to you, you have put a lot of work in.
 

[Magicman]

I'm hoping that it won't be a problem in my case, because all of the Cherrybarks are freshly planted.

[SwampDonkey]

I can remember Princep and having to be careful with the timing (85 kg per ha in spring) of the planting of pine after the ground was sprayed. The spray had to be applied before green-up or it wasn't too effective. Some times the second season you had worst weeds than if you left it alone or plowed the field, bedstraw and vetch usually got released. 

[WDH]

Sweetgum suckers prolifically from the roots.  It can be very difficult to eradicate.  Your approach should pay dividends.

[ibseeker]

This will likely be a problem for me as well. Two years since the logging was completed and there is an abundance of beech and sweetgum coming up as well as the pine finally taking off. So if I understand this correctly, using Arsenal can be somewhat effective but can also be hazardous to other species that you'd like to keep...sound about right? I'm not too concerned about killing some of the newly regenerated growth and I'm guessing the Arsenal won't have a long residual effect. If the areas have only regenerated growth will Arsenal be more of a problem or less? Is there a better product for this situation, that is young regenerated growth?

[Magicman]

I'm sure that the "expert" Foresters can/will jump on this question.  But with pine, Arsenal and Escort are normally used as a spray to rid a pine plantation of unwanted hardwoods, weeds, grass, etc.   Mixed properly, these chemicals do not harm pines.  I am dealing with 2" to 10" Sweetgum, Pecan, and Honey Locust that, because of size, can't be sprayed, and am reforesting with Cherrybark oak, which would be killed if I could spray.

That's why I'm selectively killing these unwanted species.  What I am doing is very labor intensive.  I takes about 1½ hours to squirt a quart of herbicide.  I've used 2½ gallons.

[SwampDonkey]

A few years back, Monsanto sent us some javelin type injection system. You loaded .22 shells that had been packed with Vision herbicide. The idea was to jab the aspen tree bark with one of those shells per inch of diameter. The tree was to take the herbicide from the pellet and transport to the root system and in a few weeks have dead aspen. We tried it on a couple sites and it was complete failure, never killed any of the trees. The problem was, the big flaw in the experiment so to speak, the bark plugged the shells tight so the herbicide could not escape. Between you and me, I think the bark was suppose to be scraped to cambium with the javelin end, but we were told it was just a jab and that was it.

[Magicman]

This year, using the Woodsman's Pal, I'm able to give it a little twist which forms a "cup" with the bark, and squirt the herbicide directly on the camdium layer.

I think that my procedure/method and herbicide is better this year.  Thankfully, I will complete the targeted areas this year.

[WDH]

I like to use a cut off heavy duty machete instead of a hatchet.  I use Tordon 101 M, but like arsenal, it is soil active, so care must be taken to keep it on just the target trees.  I have not had any problem with it killing untargeted trees. 

Lynn,

Do you use the Arsenal at full strength, or do you dilute it?

[ibseeker]

Lynn,
 Sounds like you've been at this a while with the hours per quart math. Seems like most of the stuff I accomplish in the forest is labor intensive.

[Magicman]

Do you use the Arsenal at full strength, or do you dilute it? 

My printout said to dilute 6oz per gallon, but it was simpler for me to just use 8oz per gallon.  I'm using a quart squirt bottle, so I could refill my gallon jug easily by adding 2oz per quart.

I hope to go tomorrow to my sawsite, put the power feed back to work on the sawmill, and then on to the tree farm and finish up the squirt areas that have been planted.

I'll then have about an acre that has a good stand of volunteer trees that I'll go in and "fix" the Sweetgum, Honey Locust, and Pecan.  Then I'll be finished.....

[Magicman]

Sounds like you've been at this a while with the hours per quart math. Seems like most of the stuff I accomplish in the forest is labor intensive.

There's an old saying about "what's time to a pig".....

This property has been in my family since 1899.  It's mine only to care for and to pass on in better shape than it was in when I got it.  Yes, it's labor intensive, but I'm looking down the road 40 years when I'm able to walk among those tall oaks, smile, and realize that it was all worth it......

[SwampDonkey]

Sounds like something a little bird told me. 

[chain]

My goal is for the dead and falling Sweetgums to provide a virtual jungle which will keep deer out.  This should protect the new Cherrybark red oaks from being rubbed by the bucks.

I cut the "momma" tree in 2005 which was seeding this area.....   Good luck on keeping the deer out 'cause I know that the ice storm created a jungle unpenetrable to mankind yet, the deer are lovin' it! What about cutting down the gum and apply product to stumps?

We attended a TSI seminar and watched three 'pros' demonstrate their techniques. On 8" plus dbh they would chain-saw a double ring then, apply product to lower ring. Other smaller trees, simply whack off at ground and deaden stump. I do, however, use the hack & squirt with a heavy bitted hatchet for those tough rock hickory and such. Ever see sparks fly off the bark when striking?

[ibseeker]

"Ever see sparks fly off the bark when striking?"

Nope but it wouldn't surprise me. I bought a brush ax at the Home Depot and proceeded to whack small saplings along an old road bed. I was doing fine until I hit a small sapling (3/4") and the ax bounced off, so I loaded up and swung for the fences...snapped that handle like kindling. My FIL looked at the sapling and said "That's a hickory, you might want to try a real tool...like a chainsaw." That was my first experience with understanding why it's called hardwood.

Swampdonkey, how would one of those brushing clearing saws work on a hickory?
I can just see that thing bouncing around and cutting down everything but the hickory, including my leg.

[SwampDonkey]

I was gonna comment earlier about seeing sparks. You haven't cut pin cherry yet with a brush saw I take it. If any brush saw I got, bounces off a sapling when I go into her, it's either a steel post or the blade's dull. Our white ash, rock maple and beech up here are mighty hard sticks and I can cut'm. The beech is the densest, you gotta check the set and keep blades sharp.   I actually like cutting hardwood better than spruce. I can see the darn ground and no blow downs to walk over, generally.

[ibseeker]

The one quote I remember about using a brush saw was "it's like a goat on a rope, take your eye off of it and it'll eat whatever it can get to." Probably not an exact quote but it stuck with me.

[SwampDonkey]

I think I can follow that scenario, especially if you come at some beefier stems from the right hand side of the blade. She'll eat right through real quick like and usually the stem you want left. They are actually safer than a chain saw with proper harness and safety boots. Just don't be the guy sneaking up without getting your buddy's attention from some distance. One swing around behind and your leg could be removed at the ankle.  The only time you'd cut yourself is to reach at a spinning blade to clear brush off the guard. Which you should know not to do, but it happens on rare occasion. If you don't operate with maintained gear you'll be looking for a new job when working where we do. The safety inspector went on a site last fall on another crew that wasn't being supervised. First five guys checked had their blade guards all removed from their saws. Early retirement for the whole crew.  There seems to be a myth about the guard slowing up production. I always make my pay and then some with the guard on where it belongs.

[eamassey]

Sweet gum.  A real weed tree to me.  My current response to sweet gum is to cut them down pretty low and take them to a local "forwarding yard" for sale.  Current price is $43 per ton.  If  this price holds up for a while, the motivation may be enough for me to rid one of my locations of most all sweet gum above 6" diameter.  Of course I'll still be left with the small ones-- and suckers.  Anybody got a couple hundred head of goats to rent out?

[WDH]

That is an excellent price.

[Magicman]

Most of mine are less than 6", but it doesn't matter now anyway.  I've got baby Cherrybark oak seedlings planted throughout the Sweetgum thickets.