Stihl MS 280: repair or replace?

[Damocles]

I have a 4 year old Stihl MS 280 which I just took into the dealer for repair. The estimate is almost $300. I only use it for cutting my own firewood; I cut 6 - 7 cords a year.

I'm wondering if I should just buy a different brand saw which has more reasonably priced parts than Stihl. I looked at a Husqvarna 365 Special for $550. Also looking into Dolmar. I'm not anxious to spend more money but I figure that if I fix this Stihl I'll have $750 into it over a 4 year period. It might be cost effective to switch.

Thoughts?

[jteneyck]

What's wrong with your saw?  Dealers have to make a profit, so even small repairs can get expensive in a hurry.  Chainsaws are often annoyingly tempermental, but pretty simple machines overall.  Most things you can fix yourself by asking for help from your friends here. 

But if you don't want to go that route, I would not throw another $300 at a MS-280.  I'd get another saw. 

[boobap]

But if you don't want to go that route, I would not throw another $300 at a MS-280.  I'd get another saw.

x2

[JohnG28]

What is it thats wrong with the ms280, and do you know why it happened?  I assume its some major repairs.  That is a lot for repairs on a saw, when a little more will get you a new saw. Part of why its costing so much is that the way the non-pro model saws are built, they are not as easy to repair.  This isnt just true for Stihl either, so I wouldnt cast them off for this.  You would probably be happy with a 365 Husky though, its a good price and it would make lighter work of your needs than the ms280 or the Dolmar 5100. Might look at a Husky 357xp too, its a pro model saw. I do similar cutting to you, and just upgraded to an ms361, and I love it. If you could find one around still might be something to look at.

[JohnG28]

Depending on how bad off the ms280 is, you might be able to sell it as a parts or for repail saw, at least recoup some of the new saws cost.

[Damocles]

The safety lock plastic guard thing is busted almost off, there is an air leak in the crank case (not 100% positive that's what he said - I was still reeling from the price), a couple bushings are missing (extra vibration may have contributed to the crank case problem), general tune up, and bang... $300.

The dealer said the blade was a bit duller than it should get, and he thought it might have been pushed too hard as a result. I suppose it's possible but I do sharpen regularly and keep an eye on the chip size.

Maybe I'll bite the bullet, get a pro saw, and make a no-pressure project out of fixing the other one for a backup. I like the sell it for parts option too, if it has any value.

[JohnG28]

With an air leak in the crank that would explain the high cost Id say. Not that anyone wants to cough up the cost of a new saw, but its probably worth it here.  A good pro saw with this kind of work should last a long time if taken care of.  Check out ebay or the like for this saw and see what theyre selling for as parts saws, maybe even your dealer as they would have less to invest to fix it.  Would make a good backup too, cant ever have too many.

[jteneyck]

Part of why its costing so much is that the way the non-pro model saws are built, they are not as easy to repair.  This isnt just true for Stihl either, so I wouldnt cast them off for this.

You're definitely right about that when it comes to the Stihl mid-range saws.  It took me a whole evening to tear apart a MS-290.  Unbelievably complex compared to my Husky 55.  That comes apart in just a few minutes.  I love the simplicity of how Husky designs their saws, at least the two I own. 

[Damocles]

You guys have been confirming my suspicions here. I was hoping a bunch of folks would say "no, fix it, it's a great saw and worth every penny..." Then I could save a couple hundred bucks. But no. I won't get another Stihl because of the proprietary chain sizes, parts, etc. Probably the Husky 365 special but I'll look at Dolmar as well.

Thanks very much for the input. Cheapskates like me need a lot of convincing before parting with money.

[JohnG28]

Damocles, where around Upstate NY are you located, and what dealer did you take it to?  I live just outside Utica, and I can think of at least 3 dealers within a half hour of me here, and I know theres more around.  Might be worth calling around to see if anywhere could do you any better on the repairs.  Was that 365 special at Khalers?  I think I remember seeing that they had some, but dont remember the price.  My uncle runs a 365 a lot, almost daily basis, and its his go to saw.  Sure youd be happy.  If your interested though I know of a Stihl dealer that has an ms361 brand new on their shelf still, its the model with the extra rear handle brake on it, C-Q I think they call it.  Anyway, I think they had it listed at $630 or $640.  I almost bought it, and they offered 10% off that price since it was a discontinued model, but I found one without the extra brake.  I know you said you were going to get away from Stihl, but they do have good products, and their pro saws are very good, especially the 361, and its very rare that theres a new one sitting on a shelf now-a-days. Oh, and welcome to the forum by the way.

[Damocles]

I'm near Woodstock/Phoenecia - midstate I guess. I bought it from and took it to Ace in Saugerties. I called another shop in the area and the price is the same. Higher bench charge, in fact. I don't fault anyone for charging for their time, if they can get it - get it! But it's high.

The Husky 365 was at Ashokan Turf & Timber. I want to be one of those guys who says "I bought my saw 20 years ago and it still works fine..." 4 years is nothing to brag about.

Glad to be here, this is a great resource!

[Al_Smith]

. But no. I won't get another Stihl because of the proprietary chain sizes, parts, etc. Probably the Husky 365 special but I'll look at Dolmar as well.

Well first of all Stihl doesn't have "proprietary " chain sizes .Who in the world ever told you that  falsehood  because it's just not true ?

Parts no matter who made the saw are specifically made for the individual saw with few exceptions of interchangability .Granted the Stihl company is especially proud of their parts I'll grant you that .

You have to remember when dealing with dealers you are going to pay at least 60 dollars per hour in labor alone not to mention parts .More times than not the repair is simple but if you had no idea of how to do the repairs which you obviously do not ,face it ,you're at their mercy .-----but you also would be weather it's Husqvarna ,Dolmar or even an old McCulloch .That said,best of luck 

[Damocles]

Perhaps my use of the word "proprietary" is incorrect. There is a guy around here who does small engine repair. He told me that he can't make chain for this saw because the odd gauge is only available to Stihl franchises. So I bought my chain at inflated prices. Maybe I heard him wrong. I officially retract my under-informed criticism of Stihl's business practices and reserve judgement.

Either way, time to learn how to re-build chainsaws.   

[JohnG28]

Well if its something you dont think you can do yourself or would question, then the shop is the right place for it to go.  As for the gauge of the chain on this saw, Im thinking that its probably .325 pitch, but the gauge I would still imagine is .050.  The drive sprocket or rim can be changed out to run 3/8" pitch, and a new bar would be required too, but thats the only thing I can think of, as 3/8" is probably more common.  And like Al said, these things, along with parts in general, are not common to Stihl, or anyone else for that matter.  Is there anyway you would be able to fix some of the other things, like the chain brake, yourself, and maybe only have the shop do the more difficult stuff? 

[Al_Smith]

Repairs on saws are not that difficult . The biggest thing is if you want to learn how you have to have the desire to do so .Some do and some don't .

Those that have taken the time to learn are really surprised how easy it is once the get in the groove so to speak .

The same applies for so called genious tuners or enhancers of saw engines . Unknowledgable individuals will just act like teenage cheerleaders  for their favorite builder only to find out later there isn't that much to it . --you have to want to learn though .

[Damocles]

Is there anyway you would be able to fix some of the other things, like the chain brake, yourself, and maybe only have the shop do the more difficult stuff?  

Yes, definitely. In fact I asked one dealer if he could repair the vacuum leak and sell me the hand guard and bushings, filters, etc. He said no because he can't test it without everything being right... He may have a point. Frustrating though. Another guy said that was fine - but it wouldn't save much because he has to tear it down to scratch so doing the seals would be about $170. At that point, all the work I need to do should be done before it's put back together. So not a big savings in the end. Good thought though.

[JohnG28]

Well hopefully you can find some way to make this work out for you.  Worst case you buy a new saw, and I wouldnt really call that a worst case, always nice to get something new.  And if you decide not to keep the 280, someone will want it, everything has value to someone.  If you dont keep it, let me know, I might be willing to take it off your hands too.  Let us know what you decide, and if you have any problems deciding what to buy, theres plenty of people here that will steer you right.

[Al_Smith]

I looked up a 280 and evidently it is a clam shell engine like a 270 from what I see on the IPL . Never the less of how it's made I certainly see no reason to peel it down to bare bones to change a couple of seals .

Generally speaking just removing the clutch and flywheel gets you in so you can jerk out the seal and install a new one .Then again I've never worked on a Stihl clam shell so that's just speculation on my my part . That said though I've changed a lot seals on about every saw ever made it's not a 170 dollar job for sure . Unless of course their labor rates are 200 an hour but then again things might be a little higher in NY state  for all I know .

[Damocles]

Al, do you want to do it? I'll mail it to ya! 

Take your time - I have an ancient craftsman as a backup. It guzzles gas and weighs a ton - but it works.

[Al_Smith]

 Not really but if you search the forums I have several  threads on changing seals .

Nothing to it ,remove the clutch ,use a drywall screw to pull the seal and drive in a new one using a deep wall socket .Usually and especially on a 4 year old saw with no more hours than it would have ,if the seals would be bad more than likely it's the clutch side .

Now again if the anti vib mounts are bad it could likely have a torn intake  boot because the mounts being broken is usually what kills them .--never run a saw with a bad mount .

Thinking though ,4 years is about all you get from a carb innards with all the ethanol in the gas and that in itself might be the problem all along . A carb is easy to rebuild too in case you wondered .

[Damocles]

Drats! I am feeling another project coming on...

[ellmoe]

  Look at Bailey's for cheaper parts. I just saved over $100 on parts for my 460.

Mark

[bandmiller2]

Really life is too short to put up with homeowner type saws.Husky 365 is my go to saw it will do almost anything and its managable.Then as Al says, when you have a chance reseal your outher saw.With help from here its not too hard to do most saw repairs.Frank C.

[lumberjack48]

I can't understand having all these problems with a saw that's only cut 30 cords of wood up. I think the only air leak you have is the boot, I've had it come lose, if you have a bad mount you have pulled the boot lose. This a easy fix, loosen it up a little and slip it back on and tighten it back up, off and running. If it did tare replace it. As for as working on saws, just watch what your doing, learn as you go, take your time. There are a few good dealers but not many, they'll take advantage of people, if i seen once i seen it a 1000 times.
Like the guys say, if you want to pay to get fixed get your wallet out.
I ran saw 30 yrs, if i had to i would rebuild over night, back to logging in the morning
The trick is, if you can't fix it your self, buy a new one, run the hell out of it, just before warranty is up trade for a new one. about $100.00 to boot
 If this is all the wood you cut in a year, you can rent a saw for $50.00 a day, 7 cords one day , done deal no up keep.
Behappy

[Al_Smith]

Oh my 7 cords in one day with a 280 sized saw would be a long day indeed .Fact is 7 cords with an 084 might be a shorter day but you would be just as tuckered out .

[Damocles]

I couldn't cut it all in one day even if I wanted to. It's not just bucking, but felling, limbing, hauling, and I burn the little stuff too. Treetops heat my house in the spring and fall. My firewood is all scattered around the property and not easy to get at. I also scavenge any easy pickins I can find left by road crews or whatever... So I need to have the saw available at all times. Plus I'm lazy and I like to work on it a couple hours at a shot when the weather is nice and I have no paid work.

However, I am getting convinced by you guys that I should buy a better saw, and fix this one myself. I'm a small engine newbie so I'll need a manual, parts supplier, and time. So here's my next question; since I have no experience diagnosing any given problem, and no knowledgeable buddies I can bribe with a beer, how far can I push this board with stupid questions before y'all start getting annoyed?

[jteneyck]

Not to worry.  These guys tolerate me most of the time.  You'll get nothing but good help here. 

[Rocky_J]

I can't understand having all these problems with a saw that's only cut 30 cords of wood up.
...

The problem is that most saw owners run their saw exactly as it comes from the dealer. Most new saws today are set up to self destruct thanks to emissions limits. The only way to get decent performance AND LONG LIFE out of a new saw is to immediately retune it the day you buy it. Open the muffler, remove the carb limiter caps and richen it up to where it runs properly. Otherwise you end up like the original poster in this thread wondering why your new saw burned up after a couple years of light use. And the dealer gives you a ridiculous repair price and tries to sell you another saw, your warranty is worthless.

[Al_Smith]

 So here's my next question; since I have no experience diagnosing any given problem, and no knowledgeable buddies I can bribe with a beer, how far can I push this board with stupid questions before y'all start getting annoyed?

Oh trust me you haven't even come close to stupid questions yet .Nothing wrong with asking questions because you don't know the answers .

You want to see stupid questions just surf the internet a little more .

[stonebroke]

The only stupid question is the one you do not ask.

Stonebroke

[lumberjack48]

Rocky's statement is right on, a new saw is set to lean right out of the box. When you run a saw every day you get to know the does and don'ts.  
There's no such thing as a dump question, if i was close I''d be right there to help. But like i said take your time, i know you will be a happy camper learning on your own.
If the saw runs at all you can check for a air leak with a can of starting fluid, spray it around and when the saw rvs up there it is, pretty simple check.
When i got a new saw I'd set it a little rich for the first 8 tanks of gas or so, retighten all the screws i could get at, take the screen out of the muffler [a must].
You can't adjust most of the new saws, i wounder who's benefit that is.
I ran all my saws 32:1 mixture, i wouldn't run off brand oil, but to each there own.
Good job guy, getting wood up like that keeps you young, fresh air, and that smell of that two cycle oil how in the hell can it get any better
I can't see how the crank seals can be bad on that little use, see if the crack shaft has any movement, i mean up and down, on the clutch side.

[Rocky_J]

I'd be looking at the impulse line as well. Newer user means the saw was probably jerked and yanked on a few times getting it stuck. That pulls the mounts out of whack and then the impulse line pulls off the nipple. Or it tears the intake rubber.

But the seals won't be leaking unless the chain was way overtightened, pulling the crankshaft out of whack and/or forcing it through the cut with a dull chain.

I'm not accusing or trying to be critical, just listing off some common problems and their causes. Most quit happening with more experience. 

[timber tramp]

 >> since I have no experience diagnosing any given problem, and no knowledgeable buddies I can bribe with a beer, how far can I push this board with stupid questions before y'all start getting annoyed?

   Like others have said, just ask. However, I personally can be "bribed with beer" P.M. me if interested, I'll send you my addy.                    TT

[Al_Smith]

  Look at Bailey's for cheaper parts. I just saved over $100 on parts for my 460.

Mark

Yes you can save a few bucks on some items .However if they are Stihl parts you will find there isn't much difference in the price .Items such as seals, intake boots etc as a general rule are OEM ,meaning they must be purchased from a dealer .

Recently I ordered the wrong part and that being an air filter for an 034 Stihl .Actually the correct part from a dealer was priced within pennys of Baileys . Now keep in mind that dealer prices can vary also .---The secret is finding a good dealer because they vary too without elaborating at great length on that subject .

[bandmiller2]

Parts sales are not a big money maker for dealerships they charge alot for a simple part just to break even.If you pay a man fair wage and he takes 15 min to look up and find the bar adjust screw whats your profit??Frank C.

[Damocles]

I don't begrudge anyone getting a fair wage. Wouldn't mind it myself. The dealer I went to is a good guy and it's all very small town local. I was thinking I'd jut ask him to sell me the parts directly when I pick up the saw. If it's a couple bucks more, I'm sure I'll get some good advice on the way. Plus, I paid him $25 for the estimate already.

You guys are incredibly helpful, glad I found this board. When I mention "chainsaw" to my girl, her eyes just glaze over...

[JohnG28]

Now thats something I relate to. The word chainsaw usually sends her off to the next room, or she has a sudden urge to look at the ceiling.

[timber tramp]

   Mine just hides the checkbook.                   TT

[lumberjack48]

My wife drove skidder, she came from town one day, walked in and told me she bought a new toy, i said what the hell did you buy now, well she said I'll go get it, it was a new 026, then she said now i don't have to wait for you to top my drags any more.

[Al_Smith]

Any time you buy OEM parts from a dealer you are going to pay more .It doesn't make any difference if it's Stihl,John Deere ,Caterpillar,Harley Davidson or Ford .I might add Honda and Toyota too for those so inclined to own them of which I am not one  of .

Just the way it is, has been and will be forever .

Now some times like carb rebuild kits you can save money on by using generic but some parts you just have no choice unless you find them per chance on flea bay or something .

[Damocles]

Lumerjack, does she have any sisters?

At ant rate, I figure that he can put together a parts list for me and save me some hours figuring out what I need. At least that's the theory. Does anyone know a good source for a repair manual? Online even?

[JohnG28]

Glad that you decided to try to fix er up, will be a good feeling when you get it running at 100% again with your own hands.  As for manuals, member Boobap I believe had some Stihl IPBs and manuals I think, if you look back there is a thread about people in need of these, says Stihl IPBs in the topic.

[Damocles]

OK, got the saw back. The repair guy doesn't know where the leaky seal is so I couldn't buy any seals until I find the problem myself. Boobap was kind enough to send me IPB and manual so I should be ready to roll. I'll start to dig into it soon but I'm wondering if anyone has some specific advice about how to proceed. I would just start taking it apart and reading through the manual and hoping I see something obvious. Probably making lots of extra work for myself in the process.

[joe_indi]

The safety lock plastic guard thing is busted almost off, there is an air leak in the crank case (not 100% positive that's what he said - I was still reeling from the price), a couple bushings are missing (extra vibration may have contributed to the crank case problem), general tune up, and bang... $300.

The couple of bushings you've mentioned  might be the root cause of the problem.
I get to see this condition quite often here.
The saw must have been pushed too much into the wood with its dull chain.Typically on a Stihl when you do this it sets off a chain reaction.
The bushes bust or come off their slots..........
This causes the crankcase  to wobble too much on the tank housing...........
Which in turn causes extra load on the on the components that connect the crankcase to the tank housing.............In this case the manifold and the impulse hose................They might come off or tear............ Which causes air to move in, which strongly resemble a leaking crankcase.
So check the manifold and, definitely, the impulse hose.
By the safety lock thing you must mean the trigger interlock on the handle or the switch shaft (on/off switch).These a simple replacement items. Just check the 'Air Leak' first.

[Damocles]

Thanks, I think you're likely correct. Now that I look at the IPB, I see that what I've been calling bushings are annular buffers with bushings internal.

Last year while cutting I noticed that the annular buffers were fallen off. I have no idea how long I worked with them damaged, but I pushed them back in place with a screwdriver as best I could and kept on cutting all fall and the next spring. So wrong, I know.

"Safety lock thing" actually means chain brake... Easy to replace I think.

Going through the manual it seems there are some tools I'll need. I would like to avoid buying stuff until I actually need it. Do you guys think I have to get a vacuum pump to test at this point? Any must-have specialized tools I need to open my wallet for?

Also, there is something confusing me. Between the two annular buffers on the bottom there is a post protruding into an opening. It looks like spring or something is missing there, but I haven't found a reference to it in the manual or IPB. I couldn't figure out how to attach a JPG so I changed my profile pic to illustrate. How's that!?

[Damocles]

So the real question I have is; what do I do next? I got it mostly apart, ready to replace the chain brake and the annular buffers, but it seems like I should locat the air leak first. Left to my own devices, I would just keep taking it apart and look to see if I see anything obvious like a bad gasket or cracked hose. Something tells me there is a smarter way to proceed though.

Also, there is no mention of an "impulse line" in the manual. It must be called something different.

[JohnG28]

The impulse line should come out of the bottom of the crankcase, and it goes to the carb, I think on the bottom of it as well.  As for the air leak, Id start where joeindi said, possibly around the intake boot.  After that, Im not sure what to tell you though, sorry.

[joe_indi]

Also, there is no mention of an "impulse line" in the manual. It must be called something different.

That is true.There might be no mention of an impulse line. But it is there.
Maybe not in the manual that you have.But it is there in the parts list.And it is there on the saw.Otherwise it wouldn't run.
Since I have never seen a MS280 before, I am going by the drawings in the parts list.
In the case of the MS280, probably the hose connects to a small nipple on the cylinder, just below the manifold.
A tube goes from this nipple to another one on the tank housing, again, just below the manifold.
I think this must be it:


This seems to be a similar configuration to the 1123 series of saws (021/023/025/MS210/230/250).
And, here is the clincher, the 1123 series of saws are notorious for impulse lines coming off at the carburetor end, if you tend to put too much of push or pull pressure on the saw.
With those two busted buffers, I am sure that the impulse hose has come off it connector, that is, if it has not been damaged.
Look between the cylinder and the tank housing, just below the manifold.You should be able to see a bit of hose somewhere.
When you locate it.Use a nose pliers to check whether its fixed at both ends.
Joe

[Damocles]

Got it, thank you! Impulse hose appears to be good but I'm going to remove it and inspect for cracks. I'll take the boot off the crankcasee to and see if it's intact then look at the crank case seals.

[Damocles]

Ok, more questions... Thanks to help from previous posts I got the flywheel off easy and am looking at the oil seals. They look fine to me but I might be looking at a problem and not seeing it. So I figured I should remove them. The manual says I need to buy a special puller for that job. It also says to tap the seals with a punch to free them up. I don't see how tapping them will free them up without damaging them. I mean I could dig them out with a screwdriver - then I would KNOW they were bad! As for the puller, is there another way to get them out? I'll save a dollar wherever it makes sense. Besides, the illustration showing the puller in use has it pulling on the shaft - not the seals. Is it supposed to pull the shaft through and the seal comes with it, then do the same on the clutch side? Sorry, but I'm scratching my head here and figured I'd ask you guys before destroying something.

I will now go destroy something else and see if anyone made sense of my question. Thanks.

[Rocky_J]

You're far beyond my level of expertise. I've worked on saws for over 25 years and never yet had one with bad seals that was still in good enough shape to be worth fixing. About the only way the seals would go bad would be if the main bearings were so far worn that they allowed the crank to wobble. If it's got that much wear then you either split the case and rebuild it from the bottom up or else go buy a new saw. By the time a saw has that much wear on the motor, everything else is worn out as well and repair costs would exceed the cost of replacement.

I'll throw a new top end and carb on a good saw, but bottom end repairs are almost never financially worthwhile. And vacuum leaks are almost always from the carb or intake area.

[Damocles]

Trust me, I am not beyond your level of expertise - I've been working on saws for a couple days... Maybe I should just bet the new buffers, chain brake, make sure the hoses and manifold are tight and re-seated, put it back together, and see if it works!

[Damocles]

Hey guys, I just thought I would post to say thanks to ALL of the advice and input. Got it back together and the saw runs great! I did end up having someone else do the final carb adjustments because I wasn't getting it right. At the end of the day, and after about 6 hours estimated work, including running to the store for little parts, I probably saved about $60...

[JohnG28]

Good deal, got it running on your own and saved some money too.