E-Classic Sevice recommendation notice

[ecrane99]

Just wanted to let all eclassic owners know to keep an eye out for a package on their doorstep from CB.

It includes a bypass to unit designed to prevent water circ to the house when water falls below 150 degrees.
I think the The intent is to prevent condensation and corrosion by keeping the water at the furnace above 150 incase the furnace is struggling.

Also in the package is a recomendation to drill drain holes in the air delivery channels. This should allow the gooey creosote to drain and prevent the air channels from getting clogged.
The instructions are clear and show exactley where to drill.   There is a reminder not to drill to far or you will penetrate the water jacket.

I'm on the fence about installing the bypass as I watch my temps like a hawk (i have a remote sensor) and run out to my furnace if temp falls below 177.   My wife also watches when I'm at work.   

Drilling the holes seems like it will be beneficial especially for the 2 in the back that get plugged up for most eclassic owners.

Sorry for the small print. You can go to my photo site to see better:  email me for link   

[renegadecj]

That will be interesting.  I actually like the idea of a bypass, although what will happen if you are out of town for a week, and shut the system down?  Would you have a possibility of the water freezing in the line going from the e-classic to the house if the water isn't moving? 

[rondojod]

The unit is installed inside your house so the water would still be circulating. I for one will not install this unit until I am satisfied that it works and that it won't be off with false temperture readings. Now they want the minimum water temperture at 185. If your water temps are 170 or below it will not circulate through your furnace. I will not be their guinea pig on this deal. I fought all last year with my first boiler including drilling holes inside firebox which is no easy task. Now my second boiler is running fine and I will not do anything to it that is an experiment for Central Boiler! I also run three houses on it so where are my other two units? My stove runs perfect at 185 so why change this? You know when companies such as Toyota has problems they don't ask the customers to fix the problems, so why does Central Boiler?

[doctorb]

I must be daft.  I am currently away from home and let my boiler burn down yesterday. (Temp 157 when I left)  I wanted to be sure that the back-up oil kicked on before I departed  (wife would go nuts without heat....).   I shut off the fans to the E-2300, but left the circulator pumps on to prevent freezing in the lines.  I thought that, with a little bit of "reverse" heat exchange from my oil furnace (first oil I'ver used this winter) the pipes were protected.  I do question this method as it will certainly decrease the efficiency of my oil furnace, transfering some of the heat to the outdoor stove.  I thought that this was fairly full proof to prevent a freezing and pipe bursting problem.  How is the water to be prevented from freezing if the circulation pumps shut down when the water temps cool?

Rondojod, you seem to be saying something different than ecrane99 with regards to circulation and the service recs.  Both of you guys have been pretty much spot on in regards to the E-2300 on this thread.  Are we sure that we have all the info on this "upgrade"?

Confused, Doctorb

[rondojod]

Doctorb,

I received my valve a couple of weeks ago. What they want you to do is mount the valve just inside your house where the pex enters. If your water temp goes below 150 then the valve sends the water back to your outside boiler and not through your furnace. Valve will not completly open up again untill water temps are over 170. My circulator pumps are on the back of my e-classic so my water would still be circulating. The valve weighs around four pounds. In order to install this it needs to be mounted on a solid surface and you need to splice into the supply line as well as the return line. All they are supplying you with is the valve and no fittings to hook it up.

[ecrane99]

Doctorb,

I received my valve a couple of weeks ago. What they want you to do is mount the valve just inside your house where the pex enters. If your water temp goes below 150 then the valve sends the water back to your outside boiler and not through your furnace. Valve will not completly open up again untill water temps are over 170. My circulator pumps are on the back of my e-classic so my water would still be circulating. The valve weighs around four pounds. In order to install this it needs to be mounted on a solid surface and you need to splice into the supply line as well as the return line. All they are supplying you with is the valve and no fittings to hook it up.

Ronojod is correct.   The valve is intended for inside the house.  I was so excited about spreading the news that I didn't read the detail.

[doctorb]

Rondojod and ecrane99-

OK   I got it now.

It seems like they don't want to exchange a lot of cold water (temp) to the indoor furnace, hence the reroute of the line to avoid the heat exchanger.  Are they worried about "cold shocking" the indoor boiler?  I have a little different system because my E2300 is 300 feet away from the house.  I have a circulator pump at the back of the furnace, as per usual, but I also have an inline pump after the water comes into my basement to assist in cirulation to the heat exchanger and the water return to the outdoor furnace.  This was suggested by my plumber installer to take some of the high resisitance load off the single pump at the stove, since the run was pretty long.  I do have 1 1/4 ' pipe.

anyway, the fix that's been suggested removes the protective phenomenon of allowing your oil furnace from providing some heat to the outdoor furnace and the underground pipes, if the EClassic is shut down.  Are we sure that the standard single pump setup, given a 0 degree temp and no fire at all in the E2300, can keep it from freezing?  apparently the answer is yes. 

My dealer said that he had a "company fix" to do on my unit, and also mentioned the hole drilling.  I think that I'll be waiting until the end of this burning season to let the dust settle a bit before I start this "upgrade".  I think that it's apparent that, if you burn long enough, you're going to get creosote buildup in the air intakes.  This must be inside the wall of the firebox, so that, despite diligent scraping of the air holes, eventually a creosote block can form.  Hence, the suggestions by some to remove the upper solenoid and clean it out from the back.  This hole drilling suggestion sounds like it's a maneuver to avoid the need for cleanout through the solenoids by allowing the creosote to drain out of the air intake channels.  Where does it go when it drains out?  Doesn't this eventually need to be cleaned out too?  That's how it reads to me...Just a guess.  Thanks guys for your efforts.  Further thoughts?

Doctorb

[MudBud]

Doctor, I agree exactly on your first paragraph as I am set up that way which was recommended by my dealer even though he didn't install it.  I have my oil boiler kick in when the wood boiler drops below 140 and at least keeps the water circulating to prevent freeze up.  I doubt I will install the unit and at this time don't see the need to drill more holes.  I don't understand the cold shock as my oil boiler is always up to temp due to the fact the water from the wood boiler runs through it.  If I wasn't burning wood my furnace turns on and off between 150 on the low end and cuts off at 180 on the high end with a 20# pressure on the boiler.

The biggest area of creosote buildup is the back shelf area and yes its a gooey mess but hell it burns great when you pull it back towards the firebox. I have never seen creosote in the solenoid air tubes, just some dust and clean that out after the season.  I wonder if they want to drill more holes forward of the back ones as they might not be as effective especially near that back shelf area.

 

[doctorb]

Talked to my plumber / installer today and told him of my impressions of the suggested changes to the system.  Now that I am home from my brief trip, I checked the water temp and it was 149 degrees - that's with no fire in the firebox for over 36 hours.  That heat must have come from the heat exchanger in my basement....meaning....that a lot of my oil heat energy was going into retaining heat in the outdoor furnace.  That's not efficient.

So before, I was concerned over the pipes freezing.  Now, I am worried that my oil burner will be running all the time because of the heat drain back into the outdoor furnace loop.  Our current solution to the loss of heat by the oil furnace back into the wood furnace is to shut down the pump on the loop from the oil furnace to the heat exchanger.  (yes, I have a separate loop with a pump to force water through the heat exchanger from the oil furnace).That will mean that no heat from the oil furnace will reach the exchanger.  The plumber / installer is confident that the pump at the outdoor furnace will circulate enough water to prevent freezing, even if no heat is provided to the furnace loop. 

I am uncertain why this valve replacement suggested by CB has to be  temperature sensitive and not just amnually controlled.  If I am home, I am going to know the temps in the furnace.  If I am going away, I can manually shut valves to prevent the cold water from the unlit stove from reaching the heat exchanger.  What I need to add is a connecting loop from the inflow from the stove to the effluent water.  That will enable me to create  - manually - the return loop from the stove and bypass the heat exchanger all together.   Complicated, I know, but I don't need this to be anything but a manual system.  I KNOW when I am going to be away!

OK!  Am I nuts?  Thanks to ecrane99 for posting the memos from CB. 

By the way, I think that CB is aware of this forum from direct discussions I have had with them on the phone.  It would be real cool if they would take part and answer these individual system issues.  Too much to ask??  No offense intended to the FF, but CB should run their own forum when big changes like this are handed down!

Doctorb.

[MudBud]

Whats amazing is that they don't supply the basic parts, just the valve.  That means we now have to spend roughly $50-100 to plumb this in and if home owners need help they have to pay someone to do it.  That's not standing by your product.  It would be like Toyota saying here is your new gas pedal and you fix it yourself.  I understand this is what they think will help, but whats next?  Doctor is right, I think they are learning from us.

I would never expect to see them adding to this site or adding their own.  It could cost them dearly if the wrong information was posted by an employee....I have seen it happen with other companies in a manufacturing process.

I still can't figure out why the drilling of the holes where they show, maybe just a hard to read picture.  Where will the liquid creosote go?  Is it a diversion?

The 185 temp I can agree as I played with temps for the past year and found out that's where the unit likes to run efficiently. 

I guess more to come!

[doctorb]

Mudbud-

If you read the fine print posted from CB by ecrane99, those of us with 1 1/4" Pex pipe don't even get the valve for free.  For this different size valve, the memo reads "will have to purchase from you CB dealer..."

I think your Toyota analogy is perfect.  But do you take your Toyota in for the recall when it's been running perfectly???  Decisions.  Decisions.

My temps are set from 185 - 195 in the stove to try to keep the hot water baseboard at the 180 degree mark, which my plumber suggested as the target for this type of heat.  He likes to see a return temp to the stove of 180, and my unit holds that most of the time, unless multiple zones draw heat at once.  Really, as the heating season starts to wind down here in the Mid-Atlantic, I have been very impressed with the performance of this stove so far.  I hate to tinker with something that I fell like I have a pretty good understanding of and that has worked so well.

Doctorb

[renegadecj]

I am uncertain why this valve replacement suggested by CB has to be  temperature sensitive and not just amnually controlled.  If I am home, I am going to know the temps in the furnace.  If I am going away, I can manually shut valves to prevent the cold water from the unlit stove from reaching the heat exchanger.  What I need to add is a connecting loop from the inflow from the stove to the effluent water.  That will enable me to create  - manually - the return loop from the stove and bypass the heat exchanger all together.   Complicated, I know, but I don't need this to be anything but a manual system.  I KNOW when I am going to be away!


Doctorb.

I have exactly what you reference, a manual valve.  I would love a thermostatically controlled one, for this reason.  I leave a lot on weekends over the winter, and I basically have to flip my manual valve when I leave, so I don't have my house boiler heating the central boiler after the fire goes out.  If I had a thermostatically controlled valve, I could load the boiler full and leave, and it probably wouldn't drop below 150 for a day or 2. 

[doctorb]

renegadecj-

point well taken.  As I know nothing about how these valves work, I would hate for it to malfunction.  I'll have a long talk with my plumber.  The idea that it would take care of itself is attractive, given the scenario you painted.

Doctorb

[renegadecj]

I was thinking I would leave the manual valve in place, and add this one....I wonder if that would work?  I suppose it would.  Does anyone know what the cost of the 1-1/4" one costs from Central boiler?  Are there other options, since we have to buy them anyway?  Any credit for turning back in the 3/4" one?

[stumper]

My biggest concern is freeze up.  I do not vacation often but the last one I was gone 15 day with night time temps well below zero. 

I have not recieved my valve but it seems that they would have me load my boiler and leave.  With tmeps below zero I would expect to be out of wood in less then 24 hours.  Then I would have below zero degree air blowing through the boiler for 14 days with no heat coming from my oil boiler. 

I know that no engineer with CB is dumd enough to think that the boiler will not freeze just because the water is moving.  We have rivers freeze in maine all the time and many are flowing far more then the pump could keep my boiler water flowing.

[doctorb]

Stumper-

I don't think that they want you to load your stove and leave, because, as you say, the fans would be running constantly only further depressing the water temps.  Certainly leaving for only a day or two (see renegadecj below) would probably be OK.  A longer hiatus from burning the stove in very cold temps may require a different strategy.

I think that they believe that it's very hard to freeze 450 gallons of water above ground and that the circulation of water through the underground pipes will prevent freezing in them.  I think that they want you to shut down your stove on the firestar panel, which does not shut down the pumps, and continuously circulate water through the pipes.

In your specific case, with constant below zero temps, they might suggest NOT placing the recirculating valve, as circulating the stove water through your heat exchanger would raise the temp of the water returning to the stove and would probably prevent freezing in both the pipes and the furnace.  I think that the heat exchanger is a very efficient method of transferring energy, and your indoor boiler may be working overtime to stay up to temp with that constant 40 degree water flowing through the heat exchanger after the stove burns out.  The heat exchanger is not smart enough to know which way to transfer the heat.  They might even suggest some sort of electrical coil heat to increase the temps in the pipe water to protect the whole system.  who knows!

Doctorb

[stumper]

I have an older stove that does not have a firestar panel.  When wired as they prescribe if I shut the boiler off the pump is off as well.

Being and engineer I knew this was unaccepatable so I have done some different wiring so that I can leave the pump running but turn the boiler off.

They seem to be setting owners like me up to void the warranty.

This really smells.  As said before this seems to be similar to Toyota.  They only acknowledge an issue after many people have "crashed".  However, they are taking the approach of here is your shim fix your own accelerator.  Oh by the way we are only giving you some of the parts.  Hope you have the tools, sucker.

I realize that there are more Eclassic then the Heatmor gasification but I have yet to here of a problem with them.

Maybe I should have bought a Honda!

[superwd6]

I'm glad I never found this site till after my boiler was purchased. People read some of these threads thinking the worst which isn't always the case.The sky isn't falling, If CB sends me a valve I'll give it back, seems to me the ones with issues are the boilers heating at almost their max output . I'd like to see heat loss calculations done on some of these three building installs before condeming CB completely. Burning wood is far froma perfect sience and I know for a fact many "dealers" are NOT hvac contractors with any prior experience.This E-Classic is the least amount of work I'v ever done to heat completely with wood . Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see

[grousehunter]

I just joined this group after looking last evening for a blog that was discussing the e-Classic 2300. I purchased two units back in the fall of 2008 one wood only and the second dual fuel. The dual fuel worked great once I found the dealers had additional instructions not inculded in the manual to activate the pulse feature. Set that one so it comes on every 8 minutes for 60 seconds and it seems to work well other than the cresote build up in the unit.

The wood only I had a very poor year burning in 2008-2009 but after placing a clip on the primary air the 2009-2010 burning season has been fairly good. I did go around several times with CB about the performance of the unit and suggested they needed to provide a new control that allowed for the pulse feature. The last time I spoke with them I did not get the impression they were going to do anything to resole the issue.

When I installed the wood only I had my plumber install a heat exchanger and I think you call it an aquistat so when I traveled my gas furnace would heat the water in the unit when it dropped down to slightly above freezing so I wouldn't need to heat the tank to the 180 degrees.

I was interested to see someone mention there is a way to bypass the fans so they do not come on. How is that done?
I would like to leave the circulators on but shut the fans down in the situation.

I also received the box this past week while I was away and am not sure if the solution I already have is adequate or if I should have this installed as well. Any suggestions?

Overall I would say I have been disappointed with the qulaity of the unit and service in relation to the cost of these units. It seems that I'm constantly getting notices of things I need to do vs. notices of things they will come and do. I have had to take out the fire bricks on the sides on two units already, now I see I need to take out additional fire brick on the lower side.

This coupled with needing to drill additional air holes and potentially install a new valve makes me wonder what is next and how long this unit is going to work.

One of my greatest diapointments was how small the wood needed to be split for the furnace to work well, I have a Hearthstone stove that takes larger wood than this units recommended size.

I do not however miss the look on the gas guys face when he comes to fill my 500 gallon tank durring the winter months and it only takes 43 gallons.

[doctorb]

I spoke directly to CB today about the crack in my firebox, and also inquired about the hole drilling rec. and valve "fix" they have sent out to some.  I have not received mine yet, but my dealer has informed me of the "upgrade".  I am not trying to blow smoke at them (bad reference for a furnace company) , but I am pleased with the way they stayed on the phone and intelligently conversed with me about stove issues. 

I was told that the reason for the new valve to reroute the furnace water back when below 150 degrees was to help prevent condensation in the furnace.  The purpose of the valve, then, is not to protect my oil furnace in my basement, but to protect the E2300.  He stated that the condensation issues may have ben the cause of some of the cracks that have been reported and of which they are aware.  They are of the opinion that the pump at the furnace should run all the time, even in the summer when the unit is turned off, to continually mixing the water, preventing any sedimentation or sludging.  He advised against adding even further retardant to the furnace water unless you have had to add a significant volume of water to it.

He also asked me to carefully inspect the reaction chamber from above, through the moon shaped opening, looking for cracks.  I told him that I am not sticking my head in there until after the heating season.   He opined that a switchout to the newer reaction chamber was a good idea, cracked or not. (Part # 10702)

So the tweaking goes on.  He again reiterated that they monitor blogs like this and have learned quite a lot from the smart people who have shared their experiences, good and bad, with their product.  Thoughts?

doctorb

[ral]

I received my valve yesterday, I also thought it would help get the unit back to temp. faster if it was under to much stress. I read in the notes to keep the temp. at least 185-F. I run mine there but are they recommending a higher temp., does anyone here run there's higher? Not sure that I want to run the pump all the time in the summer either. But I suppose if the valve they sent works it should just circulate back to the unit. I don't want my air cond. coil in our forced air cooling the wood boiler water! Are those valves they sent that tight where some doesn't leak by, I have never used one before? I was aware they monitored these blogs from some of the questions I have received. There is a lot of good information here, what a better work force to hire then the people that use these units everyday. I still wish they would come out and at least drill the holes I need, I haven't asked yet. I have an older model which started out with all the fire bricks, up the walls and everything but I really haven't had the trouble like a lot of others have had. I did check out my air tubes in back and the one did have creosote build up in it. Are the drain holes they want drilled to help fix that problem or is that a whole other issue? One of the other things I had happen is the skin on the reaction chamber door is all warped, I think it is really to thin. I did notice on mine that no matter the temp. all the wood would be gone (tongue twister) so something must be leaking. My door seems to seal well and the gasket looks fine, the solinoids seem to close fine but there must be just enough air leaking. Any thoughts on this long winded rant would be appreciated.

[doctorb]

ral-

My E2300 is set between 185 - 195 becasue I have a 300 foot run to the house.  I lose about 5 degrees from the stove to my basement (1 1/4"). 

I would have your dealer look at your reaction chamber.  they have upgraded this portion of the unit and it is my understanding that this part is under warranty.  I have been told that the swap out of the old one for a new one is not a big deal, but who knows.

Does your unit smoke all the time?  If it does, then you may not be getting a good seal from the bypass door and your wood is overburning because the smoke is being forced down through the moon hole as well as up and out the chimney at the same time.  That's just one possible explanation for the overconsumption of wood you mentioned.

Doctorb

[ral]

Doctorb,

Mine rarely smokes at all, I was thinking that a slight leak around the door with some gasification happening at the same time would be enough to keep pulling air through, speculating because there is hardly any smoke. I do get some of course on start up and very occasionally. The slow leak might be one reason even when warm mine does not burn out, it did a couple times in Oct. when we had a few warm days. Might be easier to find if it was a bad leak. I do believe it is leaking somewhere, shut her down tonight so I can look better when she cools down.

Thanks, R

[Dean186]

I have our E-Classic 1400 temperature set at 180 degrees startup and 194 degrees shutdown.   If the stove is gasifying really well (i.e. reaction chamber temperature above 1,000 degrees) the water temperature will climb about 5 degrees above my 194 degree shutdown temperature, bringing the water temperature to 199 degrees.  This would be the water temperature as measured at the panel, which is higher than the water temperature exiting the stove. 
 
At a temperature of 200 degrees the high temperature error will display and sometimes water will spit a little from the top.  I found 194 degrees is as high as I can set shutdown temperature.   My control panel’s upper range setting is maxed out at 195 degrees.

[doctorb]

Dean186

I find it interesting that you get so much heat "momentum" that your water temp goes so far above (5 degres) the upper shut off temp of 194.  At that temp, you should get shut down of the fans and a cessation of heat production.  I would think that your temps in the firebox and the reaction chamber would drop pretty quickly after fan shutdown.  I have never seen this "over-run" of water temps with my E-2300.  If your getting "spitting" (i.e. boiling) from the top water access, I would decrease my max temp a bit to prevent a smalll but steady water loss over time.

I think that it is the controller temperature, regardless of the actual temp of the water leaving the stove, that controls the fan / solenoid sequence.  I wonder why your E-1400 does this.  Is it because the water jacket is significantly smaller and therefore the water temps rise much more quickly with your unit than mine?

Are you going to place the upgrade valve?  My plumber is coming over today and I am going to analyze it with him.

Doctorb.

[Dean186]

Doctorb,

The E-Classic 1400 programming is still a mystery to me, even though I have been trying to figure it out.  The when and the why it switches from high burn to low burn and back is the mysterious part.   It often makes sense, but other times it does not.   This would be a good posting for another thread.

Explanation:  If the furnace is in high burn mode when it reaches the shutdown temperature and the reaction chamber temperature is above 1,000 degrees, the stove goes into a “cool down” if you will, switching from high burn at the 194 degree temperature to low burn.  It will continue in low burn for a minute or two before a complete shutdown happens. (Note:  This stove will raise the temperature of the entire water jacket more than  1 degree per minute when in high burn mode and more like 15 degrees in 10 minutes if burning well).  The fact that it stays in low burn mode for a minute or two is how the temperature rises above the set point.  Also, 5 degrees is the max I have seen it go above the set point, more typically it is 2 to 3 degrees.  If it is in low burn mode when it reaches max temperature, then it just shuts down immediately and maybe a 1 degree rise will occur.

It only spits water out the top if I have the temperature above 194 degrees.  I have since set the max temperature to 193 and I never have any lose of water at that setting.  It only spit water out the top one time when I tried setting the temperature at 195 degrees. 

The valve is not sent to E-Classic 1400 owners.  I only posted here because of the question on temperature settings.   I will post more about my E-Classic 1400 installation in another post.

Dean

[doctorb]

dean186

My controller works slightly different, I think.  While it switches from high burn to low burn at the top end of the water temp cycle, it happens a degree or two prior to reaching 195, if my observations are correct.  So my E-2300 kind of "creeps up" on the T-Max of 195, and hasn't gone past it because it's already in low burn mode.  Sounds like the two units have programming differences.  It also sounds like your unit heats the water at a faster rate than mine.  With 450 gallons in the water jacket, it takes longer than 15 minutes to raise the temp back up to 195, and is obviously also dependent on the heat load removed from the water in my house

doctorb.