The Milling Season

[Kevin]

This past week has pretty much taken the wind out of my sails and I haven`t felt like posting anything but I was down at the camp this weekend and fired up the Alaskan for the first time since this past Spring.
I had a nice cedar log down that I had intended to mill into a 16' beam and everything was going good until I took the top off it, 1" of dry rot in the middle of the log about 6' in length.
I had to mill it into 1" boards that  I`ll use around the camp.
I`m not sure what causes that but maybe someone here could enlighten me.
There is some grey discoloring where some of the limbs exit the tree but this is brown dead flaky wood in the heart area.
I dropped another tree,  a  20"r  and got it up on the axle jacks ready to mill this weekend.
It`s much more difficult to stabilize a log on the jacks  this time of year on the soft ground and I`ll be looking forward to that white stuff.
I talked with a dealer at the trade show in Michigan and he said there was a demand for a log arch for use with a snowmobile and his company was trying to  construct an arch for that purpose.

[Don P]

Welcome back Kev.

I hate the term "dry rot " cause it's so misused in my industry. I tell people there is no such thing, only rot which has dried, it always takes moisture to support fungal growth. I know of only one water conducting fungi which will colonize the wood for food dry, and bring water to it. The extreme case I've heard of was this type in a floor system and its feet in the pool outside.

Heart rot is a mystery to me and I hope someone can enlighten. I've cut into our supposedly durable species, black locust, to find the durable heartwood rotted away and the nondurable sapwood just fine. :-/

We have a name for the time when that white stuff hits the ground...Snow Day!

[Kevin]

It`s interesting because the trunk is solid and the upper end is solid so it`s a bit of a mystery.
I thought at first it may have something to do with the moisture content in the ground but the location of the tree doesn`t seem to matter.

[swampwhiteoak]

If I understand what you're asking (and I probably don't ), you probably won't be able to get a good answer.  Something most likely damaged the tree early in its life.  The tree compartmentalized the wound which is why the rot isn't present at the base or at the top.

Trees can only actively protect sapwood (where there are live cells).  Heartwood can only be protected by the chemicals in the wood.  So when a tree is alive, the sapwood usually won't rot (exceptions of course), but when it is turned into lumber the heartwood is the most rot-resistant.

[Jeff]

Hey swamp, do you have anything more on the term "compartmentalize" .

I see this on occasion in Aspen. A perfect looking log, no sign of defect either on the ends, or the exterior only to open up to pure rot. Or I have sawn logs where it has a big ole hollow spot  2 or 3 feet long, and almost as broad as the tree, yet no discoloring or tell tail signs of defect.

[swampwhiteoak]

posted by Jeff

do you have anything more on the term "compartmentalize" .

It's a general term to describe how a tree deals with an injury.  Trees can't really "heal" or repair themselves.  They deal with injuries by sealing off an section around where they were injured.    

For example:  Some kid whacks on a 15 year old cedar with a hatchet into the sapwood.  The tree forms a barrier zone around the injury.  The barrier zone may be considerably larger than the injury.  The cells within the barrier zone are particularily open to fungal infection.  So as the tree grows around the wound the tissue within the barrier zone gets rot.  If say someone cuts that tree down 50 years later they'll open it up and find that area rotted out, but maybe not obvious at either end of the log or on the outside.

Geez, that was a long answer.

[Kevin]

These trees I`m milling are well back in the bush, there seems to be just too many with the same symptom to be caused by external damage at an early age, I wonder if flooding could have caused it ?
If the area happened to get flooded for a certain length of time then the trees may have started to die.
When the water receded the trees growth picked up again.

[Kevin]

UNLESS ![/size]

This area has a high deer population and the early damage could have been caused from rubs!

[swampwhiteoak]

Deer rub is probably a good guess.  Could have been an insect problem (rare in cedar but you never know) like an ovipositing spot for a wasp or something similar.  

[Ron Wenrich]

I've seen them every once in a while.  It can also come from a frost crack, or even enter through a broken limb.  Wind damage or ice damage.

The fungi needs water, food, temperature, and oxygen to grow.  If the crack or limb heals over, then the oxygen would be removed and the fungi dies.

[swampwhiteoak]

If the crack or limb heals over, then the oxygen would be removed and the fungi dies.

Good point Ron.  That explains why there is still tissue left, instead of it being completely rotted away.

[timberbeast]

In my experience with cedar (which is very substantial) it's one of two things.  Either a long-gone nest of carpenter ants,  or a very old tree,  which is dying.  Depending on where the tree is,  it may be 40" dbh before it is "old",  or it could only be 10".  Did you look at the growth rings?  Some small cedars are very old.  Also,  if the bark pattern twists around the tree,  you'll usually find rot inside.  Why,  I do not know,  but I cut down about 30-40 each week,  and I can usually recognize the ones that will have that condition.  I figure on taking off a good 6 feet from the butt when I cut one that looks suspicious,  and plan my cutting accordingly.  Usually,  the thicker the limbs,  the older the tree.  Also,  if you see any woodpecker holes,  plan on kindling,  not boards!  The best wood will come from cedars in the thick swamp,  with lower limbs you can knock off with a gloved hand and a heavy,  green crown with many small limbs.

[Kevin]

timberbeast,
I haven`t checked the growth rings but this area was milled several years ago so I believe most of the trees aren`t that old but I`ll check next time I`m in that area.
I cut a large cedar two weeks ago that had a twist near the top.
It fell in the wrong spot and I didn`t notice the twist until I started milling the tree which explains why it fell where it did.
The tree was solid from end to end and a good stick for my intended use.
The water seems to get in around the branches of these white cedar and it turns the wood in the tree gray where ever there`s a branch.

[L. Wakefield]

The best wood will come from cedars in the thick swamp,  with lower limbs you can knock off with a gloved hand and a heavy,  green crown with many small limbs.

  I have a question about this- 'my' forestor, when we were walking about and drawing up the plan for my place- said that one of the good things to do was to remove the lower (dead) limbs from standing/growing trees- that this would let them make whole wood (knot-free) in succeeding years prior to harvest. I see you describing doing this at harvest. For the trees you describe (and for that matter for trees in general) do you find that it matters when this is done? Naturally it's less work for me if I just let the snaggly things stick out and only remove the ones that bother me when walking by. He was describing using some type of limbing tool that would let me work up over my head..we were talking about white pine (as always..)             lw

[timberbeast]

L,  with white cedar,  I've noticed that when there are a lot of small dead limbs near the base of the tree,  they usually do not result in knots,  except occasional pin-knots.  These I prefer to cut,  because there seems to be a lot less warping during the drying process.  Cedar dries fast,  and warps seldom,  if it's stacked right.  White pine is a whole different animal,  in my opinion.  I usually only cut white pine when it is growing in heavy cover,  because it is usually branch-free sometimes up to about 40 ft.!!  I have 4 huge ones I'm saving,  hoping they don't get hit by lightning.  Your forester probably is right,  but I don't have that much experience with white pine,  except that it is HEAVY when live!!!  And it drives me crazy when it has that blue stain all through a 100" log that is sound and clear of knots!  I don't think I would cut off live limbs,  as I think that would provide an entrance to fungus and such.  I don't know if knocking off the dead limbs would help the wood in the future,  as the bark would just grow over them,  and from what I've seen,  they don't produce many knots anyway.  But then,  I'm no forester!!  Nor am I an expert.
Kevin,  I've never sawn a white cedar that had gray wood,  seriously.  I think the rot you were talking about is that brown,  dry crumbly stuff,  right?  I my opinion,  that's just a dying tree.  Dry that stick with the twist carefully,  it might turn into a dray runner where the twist wood and straight wood meet!!

[swampwhiteoak]

L,
The grade of log coming off a white pine can be greatly increased by pruning throughout the life of the tree.  It must be pruned correctly. Ideally you would want to prune as high as possible, never taking over 1/3 crown in any 10 year period.  If you keep an intensive thinning/pruning regime your stand value will go up immensly over time.  

I have no idea about white cedar.  Redcedar should not be pruned, but I'm sure if white-cedar is the same way.

[Kevin]

I milled a 3" joist out of that twisted log and it`s already bolted in place so I can`t see it going too far any time soon.

The rot I see is the dry brown crumbly stuff.
The gray stained sap wood seems ok other than the fact that it`s stained.
It`s easy to see why the branches break so easy on these cedars, they aren`t that tight to the tree.

[Don P]

The brown crumbly rot is brown cubic rot in my literature. The other major player in tree recycling is white soft rot.

My forestry text states the same schedule for pruning as Swamp's then continues that the first 16 feet is definitely worth pruning, the second is usually worth it and the third is rarely worth it. It also says that it needs 40 years of growth after the pruning for there to be enough clear wood depth to make it worthwhile. I'm up about 10 feet on mine so far.

We've seen the grey wood in white cedar. I'll have to look closer next time, just figured it was bluestain hitting cedar extractives.

[L. Wakefield]

(quoting the wily timberbeast)
>I have 4 huge ones I'm saving,  hoping they don't get hit by >lightning.

  Nother question on this, beast. We also have some HUGE trees lining the drive. My husband, who tends to see the bad in every situation, claims that these are TOO big, and we'd have to pay someone to take them down. I hear a different slant from your quote (and naturally I like that a lot better, since I tend to want to see value in what I have). How big is 'too big'? (Bearing in mind the immensity of a redwood.) Is it a local thing depending on the tools and/or the mills around? (I wouldn't think the mill would matter in this question- felling and sawing seem logically to be separate operations to me- or do you rig up those woodmizers so they climb right up the tree and fell it in slices?? ). It seems like a real cute notion, to persuade a landowner that the tree is 'too big' and the owner would have to pay to have it removed, if in fact it's valuable. I realize size is only a portion of the equation, but these trees have some thick, long straight trunks and they are TALL. If I should get the technology, I'll send pix.             LW

[timberbeast]

L,  the tees I am "saving" are all over 40" dbh,  and have clear,  straight wood up tp at least 40 ft.  Another I'm saving is only about 16" at this time,  but when my late father found it about 15 years ago,  he dhistened it "Tina's Pine",  after my only child at the time and made me promise that I would cut it down and make furniture for her from it when she got married.  One of my "huge" ones,  I see seldom,  since it is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the swamp,  and could only be brought out by helicopter.  The last time I saw it,  my uncle,  myself and a friend could not touch hands around it.  I don't think I'll ever get it out.  How big is too big?  It depends on your equipment and capabilites.  I know I can get the other 3 out myself,  but I'll cut the small stuff around them first,  as to not lose the smaller stuff,  or cause a bad fall with the big ones.  Driveway tees are different.  I would hesitate to cut a really big tree near a house,  as I don't have the liability insurance.  I paid to have a huge Chinese Elm taken down between my house and my neighbors',  because they are weak and I was worried about it coming down in a windstorm.  An oak,  I would have left.  There's a massive Tulip Polar I saw this year at Monticello,  an original tree,  right next to the house.  I would assume that the stability is checked some way by experts,  as this tree could wipe out Thomas Jefferson's home if it fell!!  It must be over 6 ft dbh!!!!!  All of the really large trees there have lighning rods on them!  I guess too big is something you can't handle safely by yourself,  or if you see obvious external signs of rot,  such as around the base,  bark falling off,  etc.  Or a dying top.  Like I said I'm not an expert,  many here know far more than I do!!  One thing I know,  though,  is that I can only guess at what is going on INSIDE of a tree,  until I have it on the ground!  

[Ron Wenrich]

It all depends on who you talk to, and where the tree is located.  I've seen lots of timber buyers say a 14" red oak is "too big" and wipe it out during the harvest.

In a woods situation, too big gets to be when the tree starts to decline.  Swollen knots are a sign that it's past too big.    

Trees will continue to put on value, and lots of it, as they grow larger.  But, economically, will slow down their rate of return after about 18".  That doesn't mean they are economically or physcially mature.  You will make more money on $100 @ 2% than you will $10 @ 10%.  

From an equipment standpoint, most large mills can handle up to 42".  I did see a carriage with an 8' opening.  The economy of milling a log usually has a maximum of about 28".  Above that, it takes too long to mill the log and production costs begin to go up.  A lot will depend on mill setups and cutting patterns.

In an urban or homesite, trees have to have sufficient room for root and crown expansion.  They may be too big if they would reach a building if it fell down.  Usually, it takes quite a bit of decline, or a massive wind to bring them down.  In your area, ice may also be a problem.  

[Tom]

   

The pictures are of the logowner and his son.

Lw,
Here is part of the trunk of a live oak blown down in a storm that we sawed into 4/4, 5/4 and 8/4 boards.  

The log owner didn't want to waste the wood and was willing to put the labor into preparing it for the mill.  It didn't cost me too much to saw it for him.

The project took a week and there was just over 1500 board feet of lumber produced.  If you can find a sawyer willing to help and saw on footage just to save the wood then you will have a pretty good deal.  If you do the preparation yourself then be prepared for a lot of hard work.

The number of hours weren't a week.  Actually it took about 28 hours of chainsaw, wedge and truck work to prepare and saw what he had.  I spent 6 days of 90 mi.round trips with the truck to help and make the mill available.

Some jobs you just have to chalk up to advertising and liking what you do.  

[Don P]

Click below for a website of a type of mill that doesn't care how big. Some right impressive pics.

www.petersonsawmills.com

http://www.lucasmill.com.au/

[L. Wakefield]

   Dot is one big bahstid, fur shur   lw