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Author Topic: red pine stumpage value in WI  (Read 7680 times)

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Offline rcanderson1968

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red pine stumpage value in WI
« on: March 05, 2010, 06:51:34 pm »
Hello,

I am a forester in OR, but I have relatives in WI who have about 50 acres of red pine plantation that is due for a first thinning.  I only saw a small portion of the stand during a recent visit, but would estimate the trees average about 7 to 8" at DBH and are about 20 to 25 feet to a 5 inch top.  I understand there is a sawmill nearby that will take tree length logs so long as they are at least 17' long to a 5 inch top.  Does anyone know what current stumpage values might be for this kind of timber?

Also, is it reasonable to assume that if every other row was harvested, a stand like this would yield 20 cords per acre?  The spacing seems to be about 6 feet between trees and 9-10 feet between rows.

Thanks.
"...It's a good rifle - and killed the bear that killed me.  Anyway I'm Dead.  Yours Truly, Hatchet Jack"

Offline Ron Scott

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Re: red pine stumpage value in WI
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2010, 07:29:20 pm »
Depending upon the basal area, every other row might be a bit heavy for the first thinning. You don't want to expose the stand to wind throw and snow damage. You also want to grow poles for the second thinning and increased product value. We usually take the stand down to 90-120 sq. ft. BA or about every third row. This should harvest 10-15 cords/acre.
~Ron

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: red pine stumpage value in WI
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2010, 07:38:01 pm »
Just going by NB sites here, sounds like a site class 2 @ 40 feet.

Density based on 10 x 6 foot spacing is 1667 trees/ha (675 trees/acre)

Volume per 7" tree 0.125 m3 (0.059 cords) = 37 cord/acre

Probably pretty handy , 18-20 cords. But, this assumes good quality stems, sometimes you get a lot of double stems and crooks from environmental damage. Realistically, probably around 16 cords/acre of quality stems at your harvest pattern.

Just my two cents. ;)

First thinnings in red pine here only take out every 3rd row and thin some runts out of the leave rows with target BA like Ron says.

Pre-commercial thinning pays off. :)

'If she wants to play lumberjack, she's going to have to learn to handle her end of the log.'
Dirty Harry

Offline Clark

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Re: red pine stumpage value in WI
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2010, 09:32:59 pm »
I'd agree with volume estimates but it is a first thinning so squirrelly things can happen.  Since it has been mentioned, I feel compelled to comment on the thinning method.

While row thinning is necessary to gain access to planted red pine I would strongly recommend against relying on it to gain your target BA.  Traditionally in red pine they have taken every third row on the first thinning and walked away.  The problem with this method is that you take 1/3 of the good, the average and the ugly trees. 

In recent years I have seen industry going to taking every 5th row and then thinning the junk from between them to reach the target BA.  With modern processors and forwarders this is not an operational problem.  Access is still gained for future harvests and hopefully the percent of ugly trees taken can be much higher and the high quality trees lower.

Clark

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: red pine stumpage value in WI
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2010, 06:30:37 am »
Nothing wrong with harvesting a few good ones. Why should you always be cutting junk? ;)

Pre-commercial thinning pays off. :)

'If she wants to play lumberjack, she's going to have to learn to handle her end of the log.'
Dirty Harry

Offline rcanderson1968

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Re: red pine stumpage value in WI
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2010, 09:44:59 am »
Hey Guys,  Thanks for the info. it's really good advice about the how hard to thin and what it might yield. 

I also had someone send me a message saying that pulpwood is going for about $33-$34 per ton ($75-$80 per cord) delivered to the mill, but mills are not taking too many deliveries at the moment.  I would guesstimate that after taking out logging and hauling costs/profit, the stumpage value might be somewhere around $20 per cord  Sound about right?
"...It's a good rifle - and killed the bear that killed me.  Anyway I'm Dead.  Yours Truly, Hatchet Jack"

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: red pine stumpage value in WI
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2010, 09:46:58 am »
Sounds like in the ball park, but don't be surprised if offered $12-15/cord.

Pre-commercial thinning pays off. :)

'If she wants to play lumberjack, she's going to have to learn to handle her end of the log.'
Dirty Harry

Offline Clark

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Re: red pine stumpage value in WI
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2010, 08:23:26 pm »
Nothing wrong with harvesting a few good ones. Why should you always be cutting junk? ;)

I guess there is nothing wrong in taking some "good" ones.  The obvious problem in taking high quality stems in the first thinning is that there is no premium for them or at least, very unlikely will you receive any premium for them.  Trying to increase the odds that you will have higher quality and larger stems to harvest later is always a good practice, especially if it comes at the price of cutting low quality stems.

Clark

Offline rcanderson1968

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Re: red pine stumpage value in WI
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2010, 08:37:38 pm »
Clark,

I noticed that you are from Vancouver, WA.  Is the harvesting every 5th row practice something you observed in the Lake States?

Roy
"...It's a good rifle - and killed the bear that killed me.  Anyway I'm Dead.  Yours Truly, Hatchet Jack"

Offline rocksnstumps

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Re: red pine stumpage value in WI
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2010, 12:14:06 am »
Had a small amount of pine thinned along with low value hardwood about a year ago and got $15/cord for the pine. This is in NE Wisconsin and prices are usually a little lower than central or north central for pine pulp so you might do a little better if there. 4 years ago a family member got $41 cord in an area with a lot of plantation pine and close to a mill but not anymore. If you want to see relative prices for different areas you can get a feel for that by the tax amounts on Managed Forest Lands for cord products
http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/forestry/ftax/yieldrates.htm

Offline Clark

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Re: red pine stumpage value in WI
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2010, 12:27:26 am »
Clark,

I noticed that you are from Vancouver, WA.  Is the harvesting every 5th row practice something you observed in the Lake States?

Roy

Yes, this was on Plum Creek land in north-central Wisconsin.  In a past job I worked there and did quite a bit of marking for them.  Now I'm out here and wish I could find a job like that again!

Clark

Offline rcanderson1968

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Re: red pine stumpage value in WI
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2010, 12:33:33 am »
rocksnstumps,

Thanks for posting the link.  I checked it out and the plantation is in the Eau Claire zone and its enrolled in the Forest Crop Law program, so the tax rate is $3.00 per cord, or 15% if they get $20 per cord.  Even higher as a percent if they get less than $20 per cord.  Seems like a lot, but I guess its worth it in property tax savings.... 
"...It's a good rifle - and killed the bear that killed me.  Anyway I'm Dead.  Yours Truly, Hatchet Jack"

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: red pine stumpage value in WI
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2010, 04:48:12 am »
I guess there is nothing wrong in taking some "good" ones.  The obvious problem in taking high quality stems in the first thinning is that there is no premium for them or at least, very unlikely will you receive any premium for them.  Trying to increase the odds that you will have higher quality and larger stems to harvest later is always a good practice, especially if it comes at the price of cutting low quality stems.

Clark

True enough about the odds, but there will always be lots of low grade to try and market. But at least taking out that row whether its every 3rd or 5th, it's indiscriminate and you work toward your target basal area without high grading. In my mind and probably others have thought of this, every 5 row is just going to cause a lot of extra damage to the closest row to the machine trail. All that extra reaching and maneuvering. Having the harvesting of trees close to the machine gives you more control. Green red pine is heavy, we're talking 40 foot trees.

Pre-commercial thinning pays off. :)

'If she wants to play lumberjack, she's going to have to learn to handle her end of the log.'
Dirty Harry

Offline Clark

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Re: red pine stumpage value in WI
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2010, 11:05:27 pm »
With 9-10' between rows the machines will have 18-20' of room to maneuver when they take a row.  With today's modern cut-to-length machines that are designed to work in smaller timber damage is not anymore an issue than it ever was.  Sure the operator has to be competent and you can't expect miracles in the really thick stuff but that is no change from the old school days of taking every 3rd row. 

You may doubt me and that's fine.  I'm just some dude who has internet access that can sound somewhat knowledgeable about trees.  If you want coordinates of or directions to stands that have been thinned as I stated before (take every 5th row, removing small, undesirable trees from between the rows to reach target BA) then simply ask, I'd be happy to oblige.

Clark

Offline rocksnstumps

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Re: red pine stumpage value in WI
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2010, 12:09:54 am »
RC1968,
FCL tax rates are around 10% if I remember right so hopefully the $3.00/cord reflects a higher average stumpage price for that area and not pushing up into the 15% but like you say, a break from taxes is good. Being in FCL is about as low as it gets with something like $24 per 40 acres for taxes (but open to public use)

Offline rocksnstumps

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Re: red pine stumpage value in WI
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2010, 12:23:28 am »
Clark,
With a company harvestor on company land I'm sure they watch what they're doing and every 5th row can be done well or else they tell you to find a new job. My family's experience with independent loggers on private land with small jobs is not up to that level however. Even in timber on it's third cycle of thinning there's been a fair amount of residual damage. We didn't hire that logger, the paper company who won the contract bid it out so not always in the landowners control. I will say that the two times we were on site the first time the fella was doing a good job. Later it was a younger guy in another stand and I'm guessing he was getting some "on the job" training.

Offline Clark

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Re: red pine stumpage value in WI
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2010, 11:33:56 am »
And maybe that brings us full circle to something this forum has always advocated: hire a consulting forester before cutting.  A consulting forester with a good reputation should have loggers available to him that are competent and that he knows will do a good job.  You're 100% correct though, trying to find a logger that will do a good job can be a gamble and sometimes you end up losing pretty bad.

Clark

Offline Ron Scott

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Re: red pine stumpage value in WI
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2010, 07:54:58 pm »
Yes, use a professional forester to determine the proper thinning prescription and what method of row thinning would be appropriate for the particular stand. Thinning every 3rd or 5th row is not always the correct prescription to meet the management objectives.

We always selectively harvest between the rows so it isn't just a row thinning only. Early prescriptions before mechanized logging removed every 11th row or 66 feet (1 chain) for skidding and selectively harvesting between the rows. The cut wood was moved 33 feet each way to the cleared skid trails. Early plantations were usually planted on a 6x6 spacing, now many are planted on a 6x9 spacing, etc. to allow for access of larger equipment and more mechanization.

We also may stagger the row thinnings to remove the straight lines of the plantation rows to mimick a more natural stand. We may also use a "herring bone" pattern from every 11 row or so. Wildlife seem to like this pattern with more edge.
~Ron

Offline rocksnstumps

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Re: red pine stumpage value in WI
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2010, 10:54:17 pm »
Hiring a consulting forester is always a good idea. Mine sent out 31 letters doing his job looking for a logger. Got two bids back. Some jobs are just low value or small acres so not a lot of interest. Gotta remember there's a difference in things on a commercial scale and what a small landowner offers. Last three cuts have all been arranged by consulting foresters, worth paying for the expertise but there can be a difference for the little guy since not much of a business relationship when you get to work with a logger about once every 10 years.....

Offline DirtForester

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Re: red pine stumpage value in WI
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2010, 11:13:59 am »
Nothing wrong with harvesting a few good ones. Why should you always be cutting junk? ;)
Some good ones will come from the rows being removed.  On the leave rows, I would be designating future crop trees and only cutting suppressed stems this go round.
If it's a good tree, grow it!
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