Starting out (advice needed)

[flanajb]

Hi All,

I currently work in the dreaded finance sector and have been contemplating going back to my routes in the timber business.  Before going to work as a computer programmer I used to make handmade kitchens / joinery.

My hair brain scheme is to setup a business doing the following, but am unsure as to whether it is viable.  I have outlined my proposed business model below and would appreciate your thoughts and suggestions.

1.  Buy a portable sawmill for sourcing sawn timber of local UK origin.  Saw unit would also be contracted out when not in use.

2.  Air dry / kiln dry timber

3.  Purchase 4 sided planer moulder / spindle moulder / panel saw and specialist spindle tooling for manufacturing the following
     - Mouldings
     - Hardwood flooring
     - Interior / exterior doors
     - Storm proof windows / sash window

Now my Wife wants me to continue working in the souless finance industry I feel it is time to go back to my roots.  Obviously, the outlay costs here will run to about £50,000 or $75000 for equipment purchases and it is a significant investment and I need to be sure there is the market, but I am unsure how to proceed.

The reason I think there is potential is that most joinery firms purchase their timber already kiln dried and that adds a massive cost to the end product before you have even started.

Interested to hear your thoughts or advice.

J

[Magicman]

First, Welcome to The Forestry Forum.  I can't give advice, but I can ask questions.  If you wanted to buy the items that you propose to manufacture, where would you buy them (retail)?  Where does that seller buy them (wholesale)?  Now investigate those manufacturers and determine how financially sound they are.  Is there wiggle room for another manufacturer/supplier?  These are all home building items.  How financially sound is the home building industry?

Those are just issues that I could quickly think of.  Being able to manufacture products is not a question.  Without a market (sale) for your items, a whole warehouse full will not turn a profit.  In a perfect marketing situation, you would not need a warehouse.  Items would leave you and go straight to a distribution center.

[flanajb]

First, Welcome to The Forestry Forum.  I can't give advice, but I can ask questions.  If you wanted to buy the items that you propose to manufacture, where would you buy them (retail)?  Where does that seller buy them (wholesale)?  Now investigate those manufacturers and determine how financially sound they are.  Is there wiggle room for another manufacturer/supplier?  These are all home building items.  How financially sound is the home building industry?

Those are just issues that I could quickly think of.  Being able to manufacture products is not a question.  Without a market (sale) for your items, a whole warehouse full will not turn a profit.  In a perfect marketing situation, you would not need a warehouse.  Items would leave you and go straight to a distribution center.

Hi Magicman,  you have raised some valid points there and maybe my desire to go and do something else has detracted me from the real purpose of running your own business, which is to make a living.  The reason I want to cover the whole spectrum is that you are quite well diversified across many sectors and as a result you don't have all your eggs in one basket, but many.  I recently saw a very well and long standing joinery company go bust who specialised soley in shop refitting, but given the economic situation I can see how that happened.

We are also looking to hopefully move to a property with outbuildings so that I can run the business from home and as a result save on expensive business rental costs.

[Magicman]

Maybe you could slide into it and keep your day job.  Many successful businesses were built up and allowed to grow/expand without having to pay for itself as well as provide a living for the owner.  As soon as it was financially sound, then go for it.

I'm not trying to be negative, just asking questions that I would ask myself.

[flanajb]

Starting out with the sawmill would be the first option.  This way I could keep the day job whilst also stocking up some of my own timber which can then slowly air dry for a few months / year.  Then if things do take off I have some ready air dried lumber for getting started with.

One final question.  Used Woodmizers in the UK are very hard to find and do seem much more expensive than in the US.  Does anyone know whether I might be able to source on from the US and have it shipped it over to the UK ?

Thanks

[Smokey]

I'll just give you my two pents worth,

I'm new to this as well, but I have to ask you who is going to do all the work?
where are you going to get the logs?
are you cutting them down?
who's going to cut up all the logs and stack the lumber?
Who's going to do the kiln drying?
who's going to do the planning/molding?
who's going to do the sales/ marketing and book work?

If the answer is you...That's alot of work for one person! I'm not saying it can't be done but it will not start to pay off or even start to get cash flow of some sort for quite some time.

I agree that it's good to diversify you business but you also have to have a business to diversify.  I would consider putting all your eggs in one basket at first as a side job and start to make some contacts. whether it be the sawmill, or the logging, maybe just the kiln?... or you could start with the planning molding and sell the finished product. then work backwards as you have the demand for more material at a cheaper cost.

I'm getting in to this because I want to build a house and barn on woodland lot I purchased. So to me the sawmill comes first.  You wish to go back to your roots of carpentry/joinery, so maybe the plainer molder would work well for you? It would give you cheaper access to the material that you could build with, and still do it on the side. then as demand grows you could buy a mill and start producing lumber to kiln dry and then mold, cutting cost more.

The thing I read the most on here about sawmill businesses and especially from the manufactures is "Value Added" as in cutting your own wood doesn't make much money but the more you process it, the more you can multiply your profits, you'll probably make more building kitchens then you will cutting lumber?

So the questions you have to ask yourself is, What do I have the most experience with? What aspect will give a better profit margin? and Will I be happy doing that for the rest of my life?(you may end up to busy doing the first one you choose, and not have the time, energy or motivation to diversify)

Cheers!
Smokey

[Magicman]

  Does anyone know whether I might be able to source on from the US and have it shipped it over to the UK ?

This gives all of their contact information, including an outlet in Poland.  Click "Contact" on the top of the page.

http://www.woodmizer.com/corporate/corporate.aspx

[taschmidretired]

 The first thing you really need to establish, which will not cost you much more than your time, is if your product will be in demand. As it has been quoted more than once in the recent past, " If you build it they will come is a thing of the past".   You have to dig into the area you plan to enter and see if there is room for you.  Then you can see if you are realisically going to be able to compete and survive the start-up process. In a slow market you can be producing the very best product at the lowest price and still find yourself having to sell below that to move the product to pay the bills. Just look before you leap.  Stay Thirsty My Friend. T A

[Ianab]

Have you looked at Swingblade sawmills?

Initial outlay is going to be much less, something that many people could justify as a "hobby", but still gives you a mill that can produce at a commercial rate.

I'm not sure what you are planning to mill, but I'm guessing UK had a number of big old trees than come down occasionally, and the swingblades give you a means to process those big logs much easier than a portable bandmill, or even a commercial sawmill

http://www.petersonsawmills.com/index.php
http://www.lucasmill.com/

Both have agents in the UK, links from those pages.

That might give you a cheaper first step, something that you can just saw timber for yourself and do some custom sawing jobs on the weekends and "get your feet wet" while you research what the actual demand is.

You might find there is more demand for specialised pieces like Oak Beams for old building restoration, or large "slabs" of wood for solid table and bench tops. Stuff you cant just buy at any timber yard. With a clip on slabber you can cut a big log into 4x1s for t&g panneling, make a 4 x 16" beam and still get a couple of live edge bar tops.

Ian

[ForestMan]

I'm doing something very similar to what you are proposing.

I just bought a Woodmizer LT10 with the 10 HP engine.  It is still on the pallate, so I can't tell you how it operates yet.

I have access to, and also want to buy my own Woodmaster 718.  It will do everything you want to do.  It is a 4 in one solid device.  It planes, moulds, sands, and can gang rip boards.

It can plane 18 inch boards for use in solid hardwood cabinetry.  Even if you don't make cabinets, you can mill boards for other cabinet makers.

These two items will put you in business at under $6000 US.

http://www.woodmastertools.com/s/planers.cfm

I am planning on building my own kiln to dry wood as well.  You have the right idea, and I had it too, to cut and dry my own hardwoods.  Woodworker market is huge.  They pay for quality seasoned lumber.  And you will be able to create that yourself.

Once dry, the Woodmaster and a tablesaw can do the rest.  You can even make curved moulding with it, very high dollar.  Take a $5 board and sell for $75.  But then, if you are making the boards, even better profit margin.

There are a couple of series on the Woodmaster on YouTube.  You might look there.

These two products will be the core of my business, along with a truck and trailer to pick up logs.  One way to do that if find dozer guys, or people clearing land.  They have to push all the trees into a pile, wait a month or two while they dry, then burn them.  If you contact the right people, they may be happy to put the logs on your flatbed trailer. 

We found a group that was more than happy to give us their logs.  They cleaned off all the branches and loaded them on our trailer for us.  They were going to have to pay to take them to a landfill.  It worked out well for both of us.

Even in a bad housing market, don't forget about remodelers including individuals wanting to remodel and save money.  This will be where your customers will come from in a down housing market.

I think you have a good plan.  I think it can be done with a lot less expense than what you quoted though.  The woodmaster has an attachment, really two routers, that turns it into a three sided moulder for an extra $2000 or so.  Great for hardwood flooring.  Also, this machine has variable feed rate, a real plus for working all sorts of wood types.  Can slow it down, speed it up at will.  Very nice.

[flanajb]

Thanks for all of your replies.  I agree that what I am proposing is a lot to do for one Man and maybe I do need more of a walk before running approach.

One poster rightly stated and it certainly is the case here.  Many handmade kitchen / cabinet makers buy their kiln dried lumber from large outlets and I know that here in the UK a ft3 of kiln dried Oak will cost you in excess of £35.

I will keep you posted.  Once again, many thanks for your comments / suggestions all of which have been very useful

[backwoods sawyer]

Do not marrying to many wives when getting started.
The purchase price of the equipment is just the tip of the iceberg, so keeping the day job may well be your best option as you get started. What ever you decide to do just make sure your wife is on board with you.

[Brad_S.]

I got out of the sawmill business a couple of years ago. All I will offer is:
Be prepared for a HUGE lifesyle change.
If the wife isn't on board, you'll have problems with the above. (IMO)

Making equipment payments plus alimony payments will make your sawmill life more miserable than the finance industry ever did.

[Hilltop366]

Hi and welcome

Not saying it can't be done but I think Smokey hit the nail on the head. There really are only 24 hrs in a day.

Had a friend that started a custom kitchen business 6-7 years ago at the time I was telling him about another guy telling me about his same type of business years before and told the story of how he started out building everything and soon figured out that he could not make enough money unless he made more kitchens and there was not enough hours in the day to do that, so he started buying the doors and making the boxes and finshing and installing them, then went to buying the boxes too, and finshing and installing them, Then buying the kitchens complet and installing them. (made the most money this way). He now works at a local hardware store selling, designing and ordering kitchens and contracts out the install.

Then I watched my friend do just about the same thing with a few different curves like expanding his shop and getting a partner to argue with and add more stess, hire more employees and tryin to keep them working and not standing around (that sucks the $$ out of your week fast), Then get rid of employees,
down size shop, sell off some gear, realise that the best return was in selling and installing, setup a show room (argue with partner some more) get burned out and too much debt. Give it all up and go work away for the kitchen manafacture/supplier for a year and a half and give him some gear to pay off his debt there, return home and has a couple of part time jobs and enjoying a little bit of personal time. taking things a bit slower. They did make lots of mistakes along the way like going with passion instead of reason, taking on too much debt too soon, and not being organized enough and trying to do it all at once.

The business did have good potential with lots of demand but he could not get it all togeather and focus on one thing long enough to get things smoothed out.

It's getting kind of long, I must be getting better at my two finger typing

[ARKANSAWYER]

  Why not just ask WM in the UK and find someone already sawing lumber.  Buy green lumber from the mill and start drying it.  This will save you alot of headaches in your venture.  Once dried then you can make your products.  It will not take you any longer to get to where you are wanting to go just save you some coin.  I would not quite my day job till I had someplace to jump to. 

 http://www.woodmizer.co.uk/main/index.aspx?lc=UK

Yes you could save money by sawing your own lumber but you will increase you overhead and have less time to build the componets that will make you the most money.  If you buy a mill then you will have to have a place to saw lumber and deal with the waste and wood that will not fit into what you want to build.  Once you get to going good then buy the mill to produce the lumber you want.

[Ianab]

I think what the guys are getting at is that you should find your niche in the production chain.

Now as a hobby woodworker I can start with a tree, and end up with a piece of furniture. But I dont have the equipment to do it on a commercial basis. A 2nd hand manual sawmill, home workshop power tools and machinery. Not good enough to produce at a commercial level.

Now if I upgraded my machinery maybe I could, but then 3/4 of the gear will be sitting idle at any one time. If you are paying the finance company for your expensive sawmill you need to be using it, not leaving it parked up while you spend the day moving wood in and out of the kiln, then feeding it through the planer and moulder, then another day doing sales and delivery work. All that equipment used 1 day per week maybe?

Now one of my computer clients runs a timber business, they do the whole process. From picking up logs from the loggers landing, milling, drying, pressure treating, machining and even basic building work, fences, retaining walls, garden furniture etc and custom prefabricated house components. But it's a multimillion $$ operation, with maybe 30 staff. So the trucks are allways on the road, the mill is allways running, the computerised mitre saw in the roof truss dept is allways in use etc. But they still subcontract out work, and buy/sell material at different parts of the chain if they are not geared up to do the job.

So when you start out, pick your niche. Is that sawing, drying and processing, or building stuff with the end product. Someone has to do all of those tasks.

Ian

[flanajb]

Maybe I am taking the old saying "variety is the spice of life" a bit too far.  I can see that buying a sawmill unless it is sub contracted out will only get uses a handful of days a year.

[Brad_S.]

A sawmill is not a bullet proof machine like, say, a skid steer loader. It is actually a rather finicky, delicate machine that needs a skilled operator. I would never rent out (that is what you mean by sub-contract, isn't it?) my sawmil to anyone not already skilled in running one and even then I would have to reallllly think hard about it.