First job as consulting forester working with private landowner. What do I do?

[BrandonTN]

 

Ok, so I'm about to finish my undergraduate degree in forest resource management. I've taken forest measurements, silviculture and ecology courses, land measurement courses, and forest inventory courses. I have been exposed to taking various types of sampling and arriving at volume estimations with excel. I've taken the courses, check. But now that I am about to put these things into practical use with a landowner, I don't know how to bring it all together and to present it to them.  Unfortunately, my studying abroad in finland has made me miss out on my school's "capstone" course, where as our final project we work with a real landowner. So I'm missing out on the lesson on how to present the info professionally, and basically how to be professional.

The project concerned is 144 acres of forestland in east Tennessee. The family who is buying it wants to use it as a kind of sustainable living project....basically, a tree-hugger intiative.  Which sounds good to me. But I need some advice from you old-timer foresters on how I should present the info, and also a refresher on what kind of information you would gather in the first place...I'm rusty from my measurements course from last year, and my book is back in TN, but I'm thinking:
-soil types (from soil map)
-timber inventory (by doing a samples on a grid)
-species composition
-create a forest/stand map using a GPS...but i don't have one of those, so maybe just do compass and pacing.
-find out the user history/age of the forest to help explain the present state of succession it's in

Considering their motives for buying the land, I'm assuming they are not going to be using the forest primarily for timber. I'm assuming they probably have a negative view of timber harvesting/cutting trees. So I will need to first convince them cutting trees is not bad, and then figure out the amount and how often (in real #'s) the timber could be harvested that would keep the forest productive. At the same time, keeping elements of the old growth forest will be important...(but what are elements of the old growth forest in east TN??, and how would i replicate that via management??).

I'm thinking wildlife will be important, so maybe take note of the amount of oaks and snags on the stand.

So, foresters....how do you present your info to clients?? Powerpoint? How does the first meeting with the client go? What do you do the first time you visit the property...do you make a map first? What kind of sampling should I do? and with say 2 people, how long would it take us?

[Holmes]

Hi BrandonTN  As a land owner I will say the most important thing for you to do is listen to the owners and write down what they want. Use this for a guide line for the project. Do not assume anything. You will be working for them.Use their ideas with your education to make a plan for land management and get back to them quickly. Good luck. Holmes

[Texas Ranger]

Do not think of the following comments as a put down, or a negative approach to what you are doing.  It is my opinion.

A fresh degree does not a forester, consulting or otherwise, make.  There is a lot of getting to know the particular business world we work in before you can adequately represent your client.  You need to have your plans reviewed by a senior in the business, not just recommendations on how to do your presentation.  You need to know the logging and milling involved in harvest, the economics of forestry for the area where the land is being managed.  

There is so much "need to know" that is not given in college courses, and can only be acquired by being guided by and the observing of a working forester.

In other words, you would greatly benefit by spending some time as an apprentice in some organization.

None of this is unique to forestry, but to every profession.  I am currently dealing with architects in a building project for our church, they are young, talented architects, but have limited building experience.   They lack the experience of actually driving nails.  To get past this, they hire other professions, many in business for decades, to bolster their own experiences, and some day they will really be credits to their profession.  

But it takes time and guiding hands.

Learning to swim by being thrown in the water is one way, but one must be leery of sharks in the water.

[Ron Wenrich]

Gotta agree with TR.  I've seen some of the sales that have been prepared by novice foresters.  Their cruises are often unrealistic because they have never cut a tree to see how much damage or loss there is.  Or to see what types of damage is done to the residual stand.

Presentations are different for each client.  I don't know much about Powerpoint.  I've only written plans and hand them over so they have a hard copy.  Some clients are interested in the money and value thing, others aren't.

I've always found that a cruise will pull things together.  It tells me what's on the ground, and what I have to work with.  What a client wants in one area may not be feasible.  That's what you're there for.  And if they don't want trees cut, then you have to show them why its good for forest health to do some thinning, even if it means to cut and let lay.  But, you better know that going in.

Are you planning to do just consulting or are you only doing it part time? 

[SwampDonkey]

I would also advise against a lot of technical jargon and I know some has to be in there, so include a glossary of terms. I have heard a lot of feedback from landowners over the jargon used. Not my plans, but plans I used to over see and do checks on at the marketing board. Also, be careful of the quality you tally your measured trees under, make sure your heights are reasonable. Also, not all 20" maples are veneer or have XX volume, sometimes they are suppressed in height  and sometimes the heart is shot. So look for the signs, and look up. Also, make the owner aware that a cruise is an estimate no matter how good you are. When those trees are opened up or bored you can see a lot more. Also your well written outcomes are just predictions. Give more than one option and prediction. Write your plan in the past tense, as it only pertains to the time you were in their woods doing your surveys. Predictions are future tense. Make sure you present these predictions as plausible possibilities, not something written from a  textbook. A landowner can often see if the writing is a bunch of fleecy fluff or something that can actually happen and sensible.

[BrandonTN]

Texas Ranger & Ron: No, I am not intending on becoming a full-time consulting forester right out of the gate. These people are friends of friends. In fact, it may even be more informal than I originally thought. When it comes down to it, my recommendation to them is to use someone with experience.

I suppose ideally the best situation for me would be like TR said, working for an organization/firm that is doing this sort of thing.

And SwpDnky, thanks too for those bits of wisdom 

[Ron Wenrich]

Maybe you could tag along and use it as a learning experience.

[Ron Scott]

Take the Consulting Forestry Course offered by the Association of Consulting Foresters, Inc and become a member of the Association. You will become associated with experienced consultants who are willing to mentor you along. You may even be able to work for some and gain experience.

However, don't be afraid to start and put your skills, knowledge, and ability to work. Also becoming a member of the Sociaty of Aerican Foresters is very helpful.

[ibseeker]

Brandon,
 I've got 20 acres in your neighborhood that I need advice on so if you're looking for a place to practice and an ignorant landowner to educate, then I'm your guy! I'm a little confused (not a little!) because of conflicting info that I received from some foresters that worked with me. Both were short conversations and I wasn't prepared for them, meaning that my questions were not specific enough. I even fooled the Consulting Forester into thinking that I knew more than I did and that was a problem. That was a big mistake on my part.
 I've had two Foresters walk my 20 acres with me, the State Forester for the Maryville area and a Consulting Forester I hired. The TN State Forester talked with me prior to the loggers hitting the property. The State Forester told me that after the logging a pine forest will dominate a mixed culture site, the hardwoods would not do well in that area and there wasn't much I could do about it. The Consulting Forester walked it after the loggers were done and told me just the opposite. I liked his advice much better. He said to just let natural regeneration take over, pull the pine saplings and select for the trees that I want. That's what I've been doing, pulling pine saplings but now I'm working on selecting. I'm concerned that I'm wasting valuable time and hurting the forest more than helping.
Here's my take as an ignorant landowner:
I know very little about forestry terms so that blank look means something...I don't know what you mean, please explain! and then explain again in 10 minutes when I look kind of lost again.
I based my original plans on ignorance, now that I know a little bit my plans have changed. I expect this to continue so please read my mind and tell me what I need to know. (while unrealistic still likely to happen)
Damage? The loggers will damage my forest? Prepare them for the worst! Even though I was warned, I was disappointed by the loss of the dogwoods, redbug, cedars and sugar maples. Explain collateral damages, it hurts less when you're ready for all the destruction.
Six months ago I remembered some of our conversation but now.....?

I appreciated the work of both Foresters, free and paid...both did their best to help me. Now that I've learned a bit more I would like to walk (cruise?) my forest again with another Forester. My questions would be more specific.
However that is not an option with these two. The TN State Forester had her baby and she's staying home to raise her kids...good for her! The other fellow really didn't help me much but was a great guy, lot's of information and a very pleasant person to talk forestry with. So, maybe that's another option, remain available to follow-up.

Once again, it wasn't the Foresters who let me down it was my own ignorance and my changing plans that have led me to this land of confusion.

Thank god for this forum. I've learned more here than anywhere else and little by little I'm making progress.

[Ron Scott]

Be sure to know what your land management objectives are so that the forester can react accordingly.

[downeast]

Be sure to know what your land management objectives are so that the forester can react accordingly.

NICE ! Right on target Ron. 

[Phorester]

BRANDON, Ibseeker gave valuable insight from the point of the average forestland owner. TR, Swamp, Ron and Ron from the standpoint of a forester. 

In addition to what TR, the Ron's, and Swamp says, my 2 cents from my forester's viewpoint of having written hundreds of management plans and interacting with private forestland owners for 35 years;  A management plan consists of two main parts; the biology of the property, and landowner objectives. A third smaller part is the capability of following through with recommended management practices -local timber markets available for harvests or thinnings, contract crews to do precommercial thinnings, tree planting, herbicide applications, etc.  The capability of the landowners to do some of the intermediate cultural treatments like crop tree release, etc.

Biology consists of the following: Soil type in each area - very important- it is the driving force behind what kind of trees will grow in a particular area.  And trees species, ages, growth rates, insect and disease concerns, volumes, basal area, etc. 

Landowner objectives:  Why do they have you out there?  Do they need money and want to sell timber now, are they interested in wildlife, are they concerned about forest health, do they just want a written plan to qualify them for some type of land use tax or costshare program, etc. ? Have they been offered money by a timber buyer and want to know what their timber is worth, etc., etc.?  Some landowners will say, "I don't have any objectives"  But then they say they like to hunt, to fish, to take an occasional walk along the creek, to picnic in that spot on the hill overlooking the valley, to keep it as natural as possible, want to leave it for their kids in a healthy condition, etc.  Those are landowner objectives.  You as a forester don't even have to refer to them as such, but that is what you take into consideration when you formulate a plan of management for that property.

The biology tells you what is there and what the capabilities are, the landowner tells you what he/she wants his property to be like or to produce for him in X years, you as a forester write the plan to get them there from where their forest is now.

As far as interacting with the landowner, part of the approach is to think back on your experiences with salesmen.  How did that insurance salesman explain his product?  The car salesman?  The appliance salesman?  Use some of their techinques, because you as a forester are also a salesman for good forest management.  You will be trying to persuade a landowner into following your advice, just as those salesmen tried to persuade you into buying their product. You can show them a sample management plan, do a powerpoint at their kitchen table, whatever. That's not absolutely necessary, and personally I don't, just that some foresters do that.  Primarily though, they need to be with you when you do the in-the-woods exam so you can explain what you are seeing; why what they want to do will or will not work, point out problems that you see, answer their concerns right in their woods.

[Pullinchips]

havent been on here much in the last few years as i purchased a home and been renovating the whole thing.  Man time flies i remember when you just started school brandon and were getting advice on either courses or schools or something.  I was early in my career then and still am but enough about me.  I agree dont use lots of "forestry" terms, and those that you do go into an explination of them in the management plan.  Listen to their objectives and give your suggestions that would accomplish their goals.  And remember no management is a form of management, learned that in school and wont forget it and even though i dont write any at all ok one in my job i have areas on the base i manage that we do this very same thing to.

-Nate

[Ron Scott]

Yes, "doing nothing" is a management planning alternative if it is driven by your management objectives. Retain the existing condition.

[Pullinchips]

correct Ron , i should have said that if a person wants to keep what he has or allow natural succession to take place "do nothing" is option

[John Mc]

Keep in mind that many landowners are under the mistaken impression that "doing nothing" means that everything will stay as it is now (other than the trees perhaps getting a bit bigger). The idea of forest succession (and the fact that the wildlife species change along with this) is not something most are familiar with.

[Ron Scott]

Yes, forest management plans are usually made for 10 year management periods and then should be updated. The management direction could change due to conditions at the end of the 10 year management period.

[jrdwyer]

Brandon,

Good to hear that you're back in the States. I will make a few suggestions.

First, sizing up the landowners and what they want is very important. If they give no indications, then the forester can usually bring it out by walking and talking and providing some education when out in the woods. By the end of the woods walk, you usually know what they feel is important and what they value. Of course, asking the question outright is also necessary.

For someone thinking of buying forestland, the value of timber is very important, even is they don't plan on cutting. In most cases, buyers usually have to pay market price for both land and timber. The seller may have their own timber appraisal which the buyer may not be comfortable with, hence, the buyer hires a forester for their own timber appraisal. A 10% cruise is very common for timber appraisals, but it does vary with the quality of the timber. Also, some landowners may not be willing to pay the fee associated with a 10% cruise. This is fine, as long as they know that a lesser cruise will likely result in a wider confidence interval of volume and value estimates due to fewer plots being taken (especially with hardwoods stands having greater variation). You do have to be careful with timber appraisals and carefully document how you arrived at your volume numbers and values in case it ever has to be defended in court.

Over doing (being overly thorough) a plan or appraisal or any forestry work early on it is not necessarily a bad thing. It may take more time than necessary and make you less productive, but it prevents you from leaving out stuff and it also forces you to look at others (foresters) work for examples. Once you get more comfortable with consulting, then you can set your own path that works for both you and your clients. BTW, I worked in land surveying for a period and that is a profession that measures and checks and measures and checks many times before making a final decision. It's  a good thing though, because setting and defending property corners is a very important activity.

I would recommend getting some contract work with other consultants in the area marking or cruising timber to help you gain experience. From the selling timber end, stop by some mills early in the day or at closing time and introduce yourself. Even if mills just buy logs, many are very interested in talking to consulting foresters who can sell timber to their suppliers/loggers. Almost all sawmills try to avoid the inevitable day when the logs run out due to weather, etc. 

The internet is a great tool for learning about what's going on with timber sales, timber prices, hardwood sawmills, etc. I use Google news search on a regular basis. Feel free to look at how I advertise timber sales on my website (It's a work in progress) and check out the other public and private timber and forestry related websites.

Good Luck!

[BrandonTN]

Wow guys, thanks for all the practical info! Sorry I did a little disappearing act.
Been busy since I posted this thread....

The biology tells you what is there and what the capabilities are, the landowner tells you what he/she wants his property to be like or to produce for him in X years, you as a forester write the plan to get them there from where their forest is now.

-Phorester, that makes the forester's job sound clear. I like that.

ibseeker, it would be my pleasure and I'm sure would do me good to visit your property and have a look at it. I could tell you what I know about forestry terms...and at the least I could help translate some forestry terms to these experienced foresters on the board to get you some real solutions.  

Ron S., I'll keep that course in mind...I never knew it existed.

Over doing (being overly thorough) a plan or appraisal or any forestry work early on it is not necessarily a bad thing.

-jrdwyer, Yes, I'll be doing that...that's my method for something new: painfully slow and thorough at first.   But yeah, worrying about productivity early on is not as important as simply learning what's going on. Yes, again as Ron W mentioned...tagging along with some consulting forester's sounds like a great idea.

[ibseeker]

Brandon,
 After reading your post on the U of Hel, it seems like it might be a while before you get back to East TN.
I'll get back to you in the future and see if we can get together when I'm in Maryville.

In the meantime, take care out  in Colorado! Those forest fires are incredibly dangerous and the work can be brutal.

Good luck and drop a post here so that some of us sofa surfers can enjoy your adventure.

Take care.
Chuck