More on Ethanol

[jteneyck]

Lots of discussions here re ethanol blends.  Here are a couple of links you might like to read:

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/3378/alcohol_its_not_just_for_sippin_anymore.aspx

http://www.fuel-testers.com/remove_water_gas.html

[windthrown]

Some things in the first article are misleading and incorrect. For example, this statement:

So unlike gasoline, a byproduct of alcohol combustion is water.

The normal byproduct of buring gasoline is also water. I think he intended to say that unlike gasoline, there are non-burnable parts of alcohol in the source product that reduce the energy resulting from burning alcohol (in other words, you cannot burn water).

Also the statement:

Alcohol-fueled engines emit carbon dioxide (CO2)and water (H2O). Both of these byproducts are extremely environmentally friendly and non-poisonous.

The above can also be said for gasoline engines, and CO2 is no longer environmentally friendly (and certainly not in the extreme). CO2 is the major conributor to global warming.

There are several reasons for adding ethanol to gasoline. One is that it lowers our dependance on gasoline, and hence crude oil from places like the middle east. Second is that it is an oxygenate. Burning ethanol and ethnol blended hgasoline produces 'cleaner' exhaust gasses, and fewer smog  producing byproducts. Ethanol is a funny molecule, it is half like a hydrocarbon, and half like water. Hence it blends in both water and gasoline. The reason being is that water is a polarized molecule, and gasoline (and most hydrocarbons) are non-polarized. Ethanol is half polarized, and half unpolatized. The unpolarized portion wins out when presented with both water and gas to mix with, meaning that ethanol (and methanol) prefer to mix with water than gasoline, and this leads to phase separation. Also a note that mathanol has even less energy than ethanol, and it is far more toxic than ethanol. Drink methanol and you will go blind, or die.

[windthrown]

As for the second article, it is rather panic driven and falls way short on how to avoid the issue of allowing water to be absorbed by ethanol treated gas in the first place. E-10 can (and is) easilly made to be stored for a year to 2 years. The simplest way to avoid getting water in your E-10 gas is to make sure it is stored in a tightly sealed container. If no water can get into the gas can, the water cannot get into the gas. The other simple way to keep E-10 from phase separating is to add a gas stabilizer to it when it is fresh from the pump. I use StaBil, and that stuff will keep E-10 fresh for a year, and if you double the dose of stabilizer, it will last up to 2 years.

What they do not mention here is that gasoline is also highly unstable, and it will also go bad over time when stored in containers. While it will not absorb water like it will when blended with ethanol, it can and will lose its more highly aeromatic elements pretty fast. In other words, the lighter elements in gas will waft off and evaporate and the result will be lower octane gasoline. Over a longer period of time, gas will also solidify and the heavy elements will start to settle out. This is what leads to gas varnishing in places like carburetors. I use a gas stabilizer to avoid this problem as well, and yes, it is the same stuff; StaBil. I am not a StaBil salesman, its just taht the stuff is cheap, available at almost all hardware or auto parts stores, and it works. I can leave my chainsaws filled with gas over the winter months and it does not go bad.

My rule is to mix my chainsaw gas with premix oil and StaBil at the same time. StaBil will bot raise the octane of old gas, nor will it fix old gas that has been laying around in a can. You have to add it when the gas is fresh to keep it fresh. Some premix oils already have gas stabilizer in them, but I prefer to add my own so I know what is in the gas that I am using.

[Rocky_J]

Today I finally bought my first bottle of Sta-Bil (the green stuff for ethanol fuel) to use for my mix gas. I need to do something to counteract the crappy ethanol fuel. I hate having to solve problems that were never a problem until the government mandated 'improvements' started costing me so much money. 

For over 20 years I never had a problem with fuel separation or going stale. I never drained a saw or lawnmower and sometimes equipment would sit for 6 months between uses with no ill effects. I had a weedeater and blower for about 16-17 years and both would sit for 4-5 months every year without use, never had a problem with either until ethanol was put in the gas. The ethanol goes stale in weeks, not months, and is highly corrosive. It eats away the rubber parts of the carb, dissolving the primer bulbs, seals and fuel lines.

windthrown, you sound like a shill for the ethanol industry. We had a couple others like that in here a few months ago.

[SwampDonkey]

Irving doesn't put that in our gas up here, but I assume they do for the Boston area market in which they supply 60% of their fuels.

http://www.irvingoil.com/company/refinery.asp

[Magicman]

There are several reasons for adding ethanol to gasoline. One is that it lowers our dependance on gasoline, and hence crude oil from places like the middle east.

What about all of that diesel that goes in those green JDs that plant, till, and harvest the corn??  What about the diesel that goes in those Kenworths hauling that whiskey to be blended with the gasoline?? 

How does unnecessarily burning fuel "lower our dependance.......from places like the middle east"?

I was just wondering 

[Ironwood]

Windtrown,

 Yet another great response, thanks. I enjoy your insights and experience.

Magic,  I think he is refering to a macro economic sense. IMHO.

 Ironwood

 

[windthrown]

Today I finally bought my first bottle of Sta-Bil (the green stuff for ethanol fuel) to use for my mix gas. I need to do something to counteract the crappy ethanol fuel. I hate having to solve problems that were never a problem until the government mandated 'improvements' started costing me so much money. 

For over 20 years I never had a problem with fuel separation or going stale. I never drained a saw or lawnmower and sometimes equipment would sit for 6 months between uses with no ill effects. I had a weedeater and blower for about 16-17 years and both would sit for 4-5 months every year without use, never had a problem with either until ethanol was put in the gas. The ethanol goes stale in weeks, not months, and is highly corrosive. It eats away the rubber parts of the carb, dissolving the primer bulbs, seals and fuel lines.

windthrown, you sound like a shill for the ethanol industry. We had a couple others like that in here a few months ago.

A shill for the ethanol industry? A corn lover? Methinks not. I have been against ethanol in this state for use in marine and off-road use fuel from day one. I have a recond on that in the state capital here in Salem. Not that you seem to know, or give a rat's ass. If you bother to read my posts here and on other forums, which you obviously don't, you would know otherwise. Also you obviously do not know much about me or the real issues with ethanol either. But you want to take me on dude? Fine. Pack a lunch...

[timistall]

Rocky, we've got a station here in Saint Cloud with non-ethanol gas. Might be worth your time to pickup 5 or 10 gal. at a time to save on saw damage.

[windthrown]

There are several reasons for adding ethanol to gasoline. One is that it lowers our dependance on gasoline, and hence crude oil from places like the middle east.

What about all of that diesel that goes in those green JDs that plant, till, and harvest the corn??  What about the diesel that goes in those Kenworths hauling that whiskey to be blended with the gasoline?? 

How does unnecessarily burning fuel "lower our dependance.......from places like the middle east"?

I was just wondering 

Yah yah yah... there is a long argument about ethanol and the benefits vs burning plain gas. Yes there are fuel issues with burning diesel in the tractor and Peterbuilts, including my orange Kubota. However, diesels were designed originally to burn peanut oil. So you can get around that. Yes, peanut oil, or just about any veggie oil will burn in a diesel engine.

In any event, if we do not do something, anything, we will just continue supporting the Saudi family, and sending billions more of our dollars to places like Abu Dubai and go bust. We have long since peaked in oil production in the USA, and import a massive amout of oil from overseas.

[Rocky_J]

Tim- Long time, no see, stranger! You still have that Dolmar 5100 that Dave Neiger built for you? I think I'm going to try this Sta-Bil marine formula to deal with the ethanol for now and see how it goes. Thanks for the fuel tip though, I think I can find a marina or airport closer for non ethanol fuel if it comes to that.

Windthrown, do I know you from other forums? Your self-assuredness and quick temper reminds me of a friend known as 'Nice Guy Dave'. He lives up there in the PNWet as well. 

[timistall]

5100 still running strong, been running my EHP361. Left it running rich the last 3 yrs. Some day I'll bring you 5 gal. of the good stuff and you can tweak the 361 for me (you have a better ear for tuning)

[Rocky_J]

My hearing isn't what it used to be, but I have a tach for that stuff now. 

[Stutz]

I just tried this product
http://www.snowtechmagazine.com/2009/08/startron-enzyme-fuel-treatment/


So far my gas powered things have been running good.

[jteneyck]

Windthrown, your comments are quite insightful in many respects.  I, too, have seen regular gasoline go bad over time, even to the point of slightly gelling in a seemingly sealed plastic gas jug.  And that was before they started adding ethanol to gasoline.  Maybe being in NY state, where there are lots of freeze/thaw cycles in the winter has something to do with it, in contrast to Rocky's experience in FL having never had problems with straight gas.  I also agree that Stabil does a good job of preserving gas, even those containing alcohol. 

One of the reasons I posted the first article was because it, correctly, pointed out that burning ethanol lowers combustion temperature.  I have seen many postings here that claim alcohol containing fuel destroys pistons/cylinders because it runs hotter than gasoline.  I don't doubt your observations, or my own as you will read in a minute.  I worked for more than 25 years on the development of catalytic converters.  We had many field failures (the "brick" rattling loose) when we entered the Brazilian market where at times they run straight alcohol from sugar cane and even some failures when E15 was introduced in the US.  The root cause was always low temperature.  We ended up having to develop new products to cope with the cooler temperatures in order to resolve the failures. 

I have had a couple of pistons on my Husky 55 fry that looked like they saw high temp. - ring and lower portion of piston below the exhaust port all worn/scuffed - when running E15.  But knowing that alcohol runs cooler at equal stoichiometry (air/fuel ratio) than gasoline, then it must be something else.  Some more digging on the internet revealed what some of you probably already knew - alcohol burns at a lower air fuel ratio than gasoline, < 9:1 for straight ethanol vs. 14.7:1 for straight gasoline.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85_in_standard_engines 
So, when you put ethanol containing gas in your saw, and don't adjust the carb, you are indeed running lean and the result is the high temperature damage too many of us have experienced.  So now I know the reason behind the problem, and so do you if you didn't already.  The recommendations several of you have posted to overcome the problem when using ethanol are correct; you have to add more fuel to correct the air/fuel ratio back towards stoichometric.  Great advice, Windthrown, in your recent post on how to set up a new Stihl carb. 

What strikes me as strange is why none of the saw or carb. manufacturers has modified the carbs. to accommodate ethanol fuels w/o the owner or saw shop retuning them.  In fact, they make it difficult to do so unless you modify them, as per Windthrown's posting.  The Model T had a carburetor that could run anything from straight gas to straight alcohol, and the techonlogy at that time was pretty crude.  A similar approach should be possible with a 2-stroke carb. on a chainsaw, etc.  There have been plenty enough failures to have gotten the saw manufacturers attention by now.  Does anyone know if the new saws (Stihl 362 vs. 361, for example) will run on ethanol w/o the same retuning gymnastics? 

Oh yeah, plays nice everyone. 

[bandmiller2]

We prettymuch have to play the hand we're delt on fuel.Rocky I use the blue stable and a little sea foam additive.I think whats as important is mix small lots in metal cans and if  a saw won't be used for a wile drain the fuel,I've had few problems.My 60 year old deere tractors don't seem to give a rats pooper about a little alcohol,they thrive on old saw mix.Frank C.

[John Mc]

...I think whats as important is mix small lots in metal cans...

What advantage does a metal can have over a plastic one? (assuming you have a plastic one that the ethanol doesn't attack)

[bandmiller2]

John I can't prove it but fuel seems to keep better in tight metal cans.Plastic expands with heat and upon cooling has a tendency to pull in air/moisture.Frank C.

[John Mc]

Interesting. I would have guessed the opposite... plastic being more elastic could expand and contract to accommodate changes in volume of contents with changes in temperature, rather than forcing air in and out. Guess there must be something else at work here that I'm not thinking about.

John Mc

[bandmiller2]

John,I believe the solvent action of gasoline {not just the ethanol} in the summer heat will desolve some of the plastic,oil and plastic are next of kin.New tight plastic jugs will expand and contract but they seldome stay airtite long in practice.I may be all wrong, possibly the modern plastics are "new and improved."Frank C.