Author Topic: Whole tree chipping (Read 2084 times)

Holmes · « **on:** January 15, 2010, 07:22:16 pm »

How is a tractor trailer load of chips sold. I am told it weighs 16.5 tons and that is wet wood. If a logger paid for 100 tons of stumpage and took out 10 loads of chips { 165 tons} is that ok? Is the wet wood tons converted to dry wood tons, so as not to pay for the water?

Ron Scott · « **Reply #1 on:** January 15, 2010, 08:32:08 pm »

We sell chips by the ton based on mill scale. Gross trailer weights may vary depending upon such variables as size of trailer, chip volume loaded, and chip moisture content.

Holmes · « **Reply #2 on:** January 15, 2010, 08:42:00 pm »

Thanks Ron What is mill scale? Can it be 50% less than say a 16.5 ton load?

WDH · « **Reply #3 on:** January 15, 2010, 09:12:03 pm »

Whole tree chips in the South are sold by the green ton. A chip van used down here holds a net weight of about 25 tons.

Samuel · « **Reply #4 on:** January 16, 2010, 01:28:17 am »

We pay for chips based on a "useable" bone dry tonne. Our super b's typically bring in 41-42 BDT of product depending on moisture content. The useable comes into play with respect to quality.

Every load is weighed at our 100 tonne certified scale, and each load a sample is taken which runs through our chip lab for quality and moisture content so that we have a transparent system for determining conversion rates from m3 to BDT to pay stumpage dues to the government.

Holmes · « **Reply #5 on:** January 16, 2010, 07:49:53 am »

I like the term useable bone try ton. Excluding useable, my question now is,a green ton, 2000lbs becomes ? lbs as a bone dry ton. In general how much water content is in a ton of chips, 50% 60% 70%?I do know it will vary with the type of wood. Holmes

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #6 on:** January 16, 2010, 08:24:39 am »

Sam's tonnes are metric, so they are 200 lbs heavier.

Sam are you testing for oven dried weight? or weight at 12%-16% moisture range? I know water isn't worth much, but was just curious.

Holmes, the "Wood Handbook" from USDA has a list by species of their green weights and 12 % moisture weights. Just Google it. They are averages. I think 16.5 green ton seems light, real light. But I don't know what trailer or volume is being used.

Samuel · « **Reply #7 on:** January 16, 2010, 11:03:56 am »

Aspen/Poplar ranges around 30-50% moisture content depending on the site and time of year. Its amazing the variation just in one cut block sometimes. For rough estimated calculation purposes we use the following calculations:

m3x0.65=tonnes
m3/2.751=BDT

Useable is after all the quality deductions like bark, pans, overs, etc.

Hope this helps.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #8 on:** January 16, 2010, 04:41:33 pm »

Site more than anything. According to the NB scaling manual there isn't a wide range in tonnage from season to season. They do recognize a bit higher moisture in the winter though. You can see not a great difference, but adds up with huge volumes. Significant difference between sites though as shown between min and max. Anyway, I was just wondering if you were oven drying (OD) samples or just drying to 12% - 16%. I assume OD to get just the wood volume with free and bound water removed. Any moister content at which shrinkage begins is the fibre saturation point (FSP), when bound water is lost from the cell walls. In green condition, no shrinkage. Important to know to figure your volume of actual wood fibre alone. Academically, they always use around 30 % as the FSP. Wood Handbook and Wood Tech Book both do.

Some figures from the NB scaler manual. These are bench mark figures I believe. I think things are done the same out there as here. Same science.

Ron Scott · « **Reply #9 on:** January 16, 2010, 11:53:56 pm »

Quote

Whole tree chips in the South are sold by the green ton. A chip van used down here holds a net weight of about 25 tons.

We do it the same here, sell by the green ton and chip vans average about 25 tons.The chip weight is determined at the mill upon delivery. The greener the better.

madhatte · « **Reply #10 on:** January 17, 2010, 03:22:05 am »

Quote from: Ron Scott on January 16, 2010, 11:53:56 pm

The greener the better. ;

Opposite here. Bone-dry chips sell for way more than green chips.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #11 on:** January 17, 2010, 05:54:59 am »

What's your definition of bone dry? It's not a free ride to dry them chips, it has cost. So, I can only assume they are planer chips or something, that have a moisture content anywhere from 16 - 19 % if the lumber is kilned. If not kilned then probably as high as 30 %. I'll assume a kiln operation, therefore moisture would be more uniform. Unless you have a lot of sawmills selling chips on a regular basis your likely getting a lot more volume of green chips. Makes good business sense to separate the planer shavings from the saw mill dust if they pay more for the dryer chips. Is there a net gain in the end versus green? I think the bean counters have it all figured with the same "net" result.

Rocky_Ranger · « **Reply #12 on:** January 17, 2010, 09:42:47 am »

I'm with you Swamp, planer shavings are at least twice and sometimes three times more in costs by weight (no surprise there).

Dave Shepard · « **Reply #13 on:** January 17, 2010, 10:00:40 am »

If I had dry shavings, I'd be looking for a horse farm somewhere.

Rocky_Ranger · « **Reply #14 on:** January 17, 2010, 10:34:13 am »

Bingo! That's the result of most of the planer shavings fate here now; time was, a farmer could afford them for chicken houses. Not anymore.........

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #15 on:** January 17, 2010, 10:36:15 am »

Shaving plants sell a lot to poultry farmers in this area. Horse farms are still using sawdust, which is cheaper. Same with dairy. Chips are sold by weight, but more chips seem to be going into mulch than in paper, in this area. Some of that mulch will be turned into livestock bedding or even playground material.

Do you need the bone dry for fuel or for OSB or some other product?

Samuel · « **Reply #16 on:** January 17, 2010, 12:10:41 pm »

BDT is just a term of measurement for chips. The drier the product, the less likely you will get your payload on (bulking out) and thus, the truck is not making as much money as it could. However with less moisture content, you are hauling more usable material, and as such, the conversion rate changes dramatically and you have on more BDT's.

We take some planer chips, although once the sawmill screens out the fines, there isn't much left over and it takes awhile to ascertain a load of quality material from shavings. The remainder of the fines and sawdust gets hauled to our mill and dumped on another pad which is in turn used as hog fuel.

Does this make sense?

Samuel · « **Reply #17 on:** January 17, 2010, 12:13:29 pm »

Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 17, 2010, 05:54:59 am

What's your definition of bone dry? It's not a free ride to dry them chips, it has cost.

Chips are not dried before they enter the pulping process. They are somewhat"seasoned" as they do not end up immediately in the process once delivered. It's much more important to receive a higher quality chip being the right size, thickness and bark free then worrying about moisture content because in the overall process, whether the chip is 35% or 50% moisture, it doesn't really matter.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #18 on:** January 17, 2010, 04:03:32 pm »

Somewhere along the line it matters, because water doesn't make pulp. You have to know what you can recover for fibre from those chips. I remember spending a few hours in class and labs doing the math to find out, given a problem or scenario to go by. I remember having the process explained to me a number of times on mill tours. But, since I don't work in that environment I couldn't explain it right now.

Samuel · « **Reply #19 on:** January 17, 2010, 04:06:20 pm »

The moisture gets removed from the process when the pulp is dries. The poor quality chips with bark, over sized, or pins and fines ends up slowing the process by utilizing more chemicals to break them down, or defoaming agents or things plugging up because of the large number of pins and fines.

madhatte · « **Reply #20 on:** January 17, 2010, 04:18:28 pm »

A lot has to do with season and time on the ground, too. A pile that goes into the tub grinder six weeks after harvest midwinter is going to produce way greener chips than a 2-year-old pile going into the grinder mid-August. However, that detail is left to the end buyer, as we sell biomass mostly just to get rid of accumulated fuels. Oh, and to keep piles out of sight. Lots of worry over keeping forestry operations invisible.

Samuel · « **Reply #21 on:** January 17, 2010, 04:20:35 pm »

I think we are talking about 2 different types of chip. The "chips" we use in our pulping process is a lot different and higher quality than chips produced from a tub grinder for biomass consumption in a pellet plant or such.

madhatte · « **Reply #22 on:** January 17, 2010, 05:14:48 pm »

Ah. I suppose they would be completely different markets, then, too? If so, then I am uninvolved with a log as soon as it's loaded on the truck, and know very little about the sorting and selling after it leaves the stump.

Jamie_C · « **Reply #23 on:** January 17, 2010, 07:00:28 pm »

Around here chips produced for the pulp mills are sold by the "Bone Dry Tonne/Ton", samples are taken to get chip quality and moisture content so the "green weight" can be converted to BDT weight.

Biomass on the other hand is usually sold by the green tonne/ton with no allowances made for moisture content.

Samuel · « **Reply #24 on:** January 17, 2010, 07:16:48 pm »

Same method here. I did not realize we were talking about two things when we started.

Jamie_C · « **Reply #25 on:** January 17, 2010, 07:37:53 pm »

Quote from: Holmes on January 15, 2010, 07:22:16 pm

How is a tractor trailer load of chips sold. I am told it weighs 16.5 tons and that is wet wood. If a logger paid for 100 tons of stumpage and took out 10 loads of chips { 165 tons} is that ok? Is the wet wood tons converted to dry wood tons, so as not to pay for the water?

The proper answer to that is to look at the contract or stumpage agreement and see just what the agreed upon products and weight/volume factors are. On it's face value i would say no it's not ok to pay for 100 tons of stumpage and take 165 tons but without seeing the contract it would be awfully hard to tell.

On another note how could somebody move all the equipment necessary for a chipping operation and only get a product yield of 165 tons, with our payloads here in Nova Scotia that would be about 5 chip van loads which wouldn't even cover the cost of moving in the chipper let alone all the support equipment.

Samuel · « **Reply #26 on:** January 17, 2010, 07:54:10 pm »

We typically do not move our chippers around unless there is at least a days work (24 hrs) or 2000 m3 per site. 160 BDT would be about 2-3 hours work.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #27 on:** January 17, 2010, 08:13:13 pm »

Thanks Jamie_C, bone dry tonne is oven dry tonnage then? Has to be. Less variance in the tonnage that way and your estimate of actual wood volume is more accurate. There is a reason, because there is a recipe to this pulping business.

Jamie_C · « **Reply #28 on:** January 17, 2010, 08:29:12 pm »

Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 17, 2010, 08:13:13 pm

Thanks Jamie_C, bone dry tonne is oven dry tonnage then? Has to be. Less variance in the tonnage that way and your estimate of actual wood volume is more accurate. There is a reason, because there is a recipe to this pulping business.

As far as i know they are the same thing SwampDonkey, back when i was more involved in fibre procurement / fibre trades etc, etc i believe that here in NS they used BDT and in NB it was ODT. I believe the old Repap Mill used Oven Dry Tonne and the old Scott Paper/Kimberly Clark Mill here in NS used BDT.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #29 on:** January 17, 2010, 10:24:31 pm »

I'm quite confident they are one in the same, thanks.

Holmes · « **Reply #30 on:** January 17, 2010, 11:29:56 pm »

Thanks Jaime-C For the site I was referring to the forester wrote 23.4 mbf. vol.cds.17 Vol.tons 78. They cut the site for 5 days with a feller buncher and
took more than 20 trailer loads of chips. The adjacent site is 10 times larger. Holmes

Jamie_C · « **Reply #31 on:** January 18, 2010, 04:12:16 am »

Around here the conversions used for mbf to tonnes is 4.76 so 23.4 x 4.76=111 tonnes, 17 cds is about 34 tonnes and 78 tons is about 71 tonnes so in total the harvest would be about 216 tonnes or about 237 tons. The 78 tons represents what type of product, if that is total amount of chips then you got totally taken, if not then where in the contract is the chip material or was it considered waste and taken for free.

I really hope that it didn't take them 5 days with a feller buncher to cut that amount of wood, around here that is the bare minimum a feller buncher would cut in a single shift in wood running about 18-20cd/acre.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #32 on:** January 18, 2010, 06:09:37 am »

Holmes, was this oak species? Because green oak (64 lb/ft³) is a lot heavier than green hard maple (56 lb/ft³) or green aspen (43 lb/ft³), green red pine is 49 lb/ft³. MC 30%

5.85 GMT per mbfm for 8' hardwood and 3.1 for ODMT (MT =metric tonne) hard maple, yellow birch, beech because those three hardwoods are about the same for weight and specific gravity.

Holmes · « **Reply #33 on:** January 18, 2010, 07:00:52 am »

Mostly hemlock,and some low grade hardwood

Samuel · « **Reply #34 on:** January 18, 2010, 10:13:45 am »

If you are interested in whole tree chipping, but have never had the opportunity to see it, or like watching it, I made a video for our Japanese stakeholders and our customers to figure out what it was that we were doing. When you click onto this link a window will open and the specific video I am referring to is the second one of three that are stored in this location. Feel free to review them all, but the second one is the chippers running. Let me know whet you think of it.

http://www.dmi.ca/about_dmi/dmi_in_alberta/prpd/co_overview_video/

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Author Topic: Whole tree chipping (Read 2084 times)