NY timber prices and logging contract questions

[JUDGE1162]

My neighbor is having his land logged, the logger stopped by to talk to me about possible logging my land, I have a forester check my land about 5 years ago and he said that he would recommend a selective cut in about 10 years to make room for some growing room in my timber stand, I told the logger this and he said that he saw a lot of nice sellable timber and that timber prices are up on hardwood and now is a good time to sell.  Little more background mostly hard maple (80%) with some cherry (5%) rest is ash and birch a few pines/spruces and I have 40 acres in upstate NY.

My questions are these

I have mostly hard maples, is the logger right is the price of maple up or above average now?  Is the market going up or down on maple or hardwood in general?

How is a standard or average timber contract structured?  Is it a percent breakdown at the mill or do you have the loggers/mills give a set price for standing timber.  While we have no spoken about terms I want to be prepared and know what to expect.

Thanks

Judge

[Tom]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, Judge1162
There'll be a Forester along shortly, I figure.
I'll be willing to bet that the advice will lean toward "get a forester". 

You really do need someone who has your interest at heart.  Most loggers are looking at what they can get off of the property.  That's their job.
Foresters are more interested in what gets left. 

[Raider Bill]

I don't know the answer but am curious where in Upstate NY?

[ford62783]

welcome judge
first off hard maple is up birch isnt to bad oak is so so but cherry is up has to be about 18 inches and up for real good prices where r u in upstate ny im near warrensburg i could look at it and give u an idea if it would be worth it.
as for the contract normally on hard wood its 60 (logger) 40 (yours) on logs we usually figure out the exact price per cord on pulp and right it on the contract so when u get the slips its easy to figure out if ur interested in me looking at it and giveing u an idea of what u have that can be cut and make a profit on leave me a post or pm me good luck

[Ron Wenrich]

Yes, some hardwood prices are up from their dismal lows of last year.  But, they aren't where they were before the housing bubble burst.  White oak is doing better, but some of the hardwoods like hickory and ash are hard sells.  We don't get to do too much hard maple, so I can't help you out there.

The typical spiel of any salesman is that you should take advantage of their deal because its the best that its been.  But, I think there is a lot of room for the hardwood markets to go in the future.  A weaker dollar would make for better export markets and higher prices.  Maple seems to be the darling of the wood world for the near future, along with cherry.  Those open grained woods have been used for a long time, so the consumer may be bored with them.  It seems to fit the cyclical pattern for the hardwoods.  

As for dealing with a logger.  I don't have problems with dealing with loggers if you use a contract, get several loggers to look at the same trees, and designate which trees are going to be harvested.  The last part is pretty important.  You want someone who doesn't have any dog in this hunt to mark your timber.  A forester would be the best source.  If he's marking by the thousand, then he might mark different than if he's marking by commission. 

Loggers choice, though selective, isn't necessarily the trees that should be harvested and the ones left might not be the ones you want to leave.  If you're looking at a thinning, you should be thinking of crop trees.  They're the ones you're leaving for growth and as a seed source.  Don't kill your milkers.

After several loggers have looked at it, then you'll want bids.  Sometimes the highest bid isn't the best bid.  Check out their reputations.  The logger pays for the timber before he puts a saw to the trees.  If you're depending on him taking the logs to the mill, then you get a cut, then you are also depending on him to get the best dollar for the logs.  That means you must really like his ability to market logs and his ability to buck trees into the highest value logs.  You're also banking on his ability to pay you when he gets paid, and that he'll be treating you honestly for every load that goes out.  That's why they pay up front.  If the timber comes down bad, that's not your problem.

You want some sort of deposit to protect yourself from damages.  You know the ones they say they'll fix when the jobs done and then you never see them again.  If you're handling the sale yourself, then get a forester to look the job over before you refund the deposit.  Pay him for his time.

And above all other things:  HAVE A CONTRACT.

[ford62783]

ron i understand what u r saying as a land owner but in general around here not many people have a forester come in personally i think its a waste of money on the other hand it is easier for the logger but if the logger is worth a lik he shuld know understand and do as the land owner asks or not take the job as for the deposit many loggers around here dnt put deposits down unless its a really high grossing job the best way and how i d it is when i truck the wood in i make copies of every slip i get i put them in order by date and when i get done on friday i go and sit down with the land owner and explain everything that happened that week and hand them a calculator and have them figure the amount of money that was stated in the contract and compare it to the amount i figured 99.9999999 percent of the time its always the same if not its usually in their favor by a few cents cause i rounded up not all loggers are crooks but sum are but i agree def get more than one offer

[bill m]

Hire a Forester!!!! Most logger do not the schooling in silviculture. A forester will do what is best for you and your woods. As for the markets they are getting better than a year ago but still not great.

[Ron Wenrich]

First off, let's just say I'm not a landowner.  I'm a degreed forester with experience in mills, logging, consulting and procurement.  I have over 35 years experience in the wood business.  That doesn't make me better or worse than a logger, landowner or any other person.  It just gives me a different perspective.

Since you're a logger, do you buy bid timber?  Do bid sales work on a pay-as-you-go basis?  Are there no foresters that are working in your area?

Its OK for you to think that foresters are a waste of money.  But, I've seen too many times where loggers have butchered stands and thought they were doing top notch forestry work.  I've also heard the tales of woe right here on this board about loggers who didn't pay for all the logs that were taken out.  Who's doing the counting?  I've had loggers ask me why I marked trees that have either low or no value.  (Because they are taking up valuable growing space, water and nutrients needed for crop trees.)

In this case, the landowner has come to the board and asked for some perspective on selling timber in today's market.   I've given him my recommendations based upon what I think a prudent landowner should do.  It might not be the way that some folks do business, but I think its a way that the landowner and the logger gets protected.  If the logger is interested in the wood, then he has to play ball the way the seller wants to play.  Too often its the other way around.

[stonebroke]

Generally in upstate if a logger says you have sellable timber that means he wants to cut everything that is sixteen inches and up. The really bad ones go down to twelve. As has been said on this forum, Diameter limit cutting is silvacultural suicide. Just my two cents.

Stonebroke

[IMOWOOD]

Where are ya located in NY. . . .

[Mark K]

Most loggers up here do percentage cuts. I'm cutting a mixture of hard and soft maple, yellow birch, ash and cherry. Maple prices are up from this time last year but about 3/4 what it was a year ago. Cherry prices are ok but alot lower then 2 years ago and didn't recover as fast as maple. Most loggers will do a percentage cut ussaully 50/50 or 60/40 in favor of the land owner. Pulp is bought by the cord. I would listen to your forester if he tells you to wait I would. I definitly would have a contract. Put everything in writing so there is no problems. I am pretty loyal to one mill because they give me work when I'm slow. I take my log buyer with me when we look at a woodlot, he is a trained forester. He can give the landowner any info that he/she needs. My logs are picked up on the landing with a check wrote to me and a check to the landowner for every load. You will get a slip with the breakdown of what the logs paid by species and grade.

[Black_Bear]

Hard maple prices are up...relative to last years prices, which were the lowest many of us had ever seen; some old timers claimed it was the worst market in 35 years. If you don't need the money I'd suggest that you hold onto the wood. But, that's my opinion and my general feeling during these market conditions. Most investors don't sell after a slight rise up from the bottom of the curve. They would wait until the curve once again reaches the peak.    

Are you in a position to consult with the forester about the loggers proposal?









 

[Maine372]

i think i would call that forester back. 5 years isnt going to make a whole lot of difference in the 150 year life span of a sugar maple. he should be able to adjust the plan to work for your stand now.

some good points have been raised but i will raise another. the logger used the term "saleable timber". i can sell old christmas trees for hog fuel once i chip them up. ive 5 year old blow down white pine for hog fuel. almost anything in the woods is "saleable". what needs to be considered is if the timber is mature. either financially or biologically.  if said logger sees a flawless 12inch sugar maple bole he is going to see a high value sawlog or small veneer log. looking at the same tree, the forester is going to see an 18 or 20 inch sugar maple veneer log thats just not ready yet. whats worth more to you?

the forester will be able to familiarize you with timber harvest contracts and rules and regs that will affect your harvest.

it sounds like you have a valuable stand of timber that can easily be enhanced in value, or just as easily ruined. you wouldnt represent yourself in court? and you wouldnt trust a lamborghini to 'joe shmoes car fixin'? how much risk do you want to take?

i grew up logging and now have a forestry degree. so i see both sides of the coin. i say hire the forester.

[Ron Scott]

Yes, definitely seek out the services of a certified professional forester.

FORESTER OR LOGGER?

It is important to distinguish between the Forester and the Logger. The Forester is responsible for designing the forest plan, selecting the silvicultural system, planning for regeneration, determining the need for intermediate treatments, and arranging for the harvest. Silviculture is the art and science of tending and regenerating forest vegetation. The proper choice of silvicultural treatments depends on the interaction of timber types, soil and forest conditions, forest wildlife, and the landowner's objectives. Sustaining the forest ecosystem through integrated resource management should be included in the choice of treatments and the manner in which they are carried out.

A professional Forester can decide which silvicultural system and Best Management Practices for water quality protection are best suited for a forest stand. The Logger is the person who does the timber harvesting (logging) of the timber stand in accord with the management prescription developed by the Forester. The Logger produces the commercial forest products from the timber stand. Such products may include veneer logs, sawlogs, pulpwood, poles, posts, fuelwood, wood chips, or specialty products. The work activities of logging usually include felling, bucking, skidding, decking, and hauling. The three major types of harvesting methods used are shortwood, tree length, and whole tree methods. Foresters and Loggers working closely together can provide prudent and environmentally sound forest management for the landowner
.

[bitternut]

So you had a forester give you advise 5 years ago and you believed him then why don't you believe him now? Most likely the trees the forester had in mind to leave growing room for are  crop trees that would  be gone when the logger got done cutting. In other words the logger would most likely high grade your woods and leave you the runts.

I get offers quite often from loggers that want to harvest my mature trees and manage my woods. Since I have already done a management plan with a licensed  forester I just file the offers. Its your woods so the choice is yours but trees take a long time to grow and if you get snookered you will have to live with the results for a long long time. I would give the forester a call and get his opinion to see if things have changed. I would never ever sell any wood without putting it out to bid. But since its your wood we are talking about the choice is yours. 

[timberjack240]

from the cuttters piont of view i liek to cut all the big ones  but ive been invovled w some harvests that it was up to me to cut what i thought needed to be cut and some times those big ones are hard to walk away from but you have to do it where i did it there were say groups of  4 or 5 pick a cpl and let a a few .. make it look nice
but my advice is get a few more opinions from foresters and loggers ...  ive met some loggers that wouldnt cut you short at all and ive met some that would cut your clothes post s off and send em for pulp if you didnt watch em close enough.. and the same goes w foresters as well. pretty much anybody ive ever met inthis busness was strate but there as a couple crooked ones to jsut get a few opinions before makin a desicions on who cuts what sometimes that gets you a better price to 

[jdtuttle]

Judge1162, Welcome to the forum
I live in upstate NY near Ithaca. If your close to this area I can recommend a couple foresters for you. My neighbor is a forester for cotton hanlon & he highly recommends these guys. A good friend is having some logs harvested for pulp wood now & it's mostly for stand improvement. PM me if you want more information.
jim

[thecfarm]

judge1162,welcome to the forum.One thing that kinda raises a red flag to me,sounds like this guy is all set to move his equipment on to your side and start cutting.Maybe I'm seeing it wrong,but I had a guy cut my land and I had to wait for a year for him to get to me,than he had to come back the following year to cut more.A good logger is busy,in my eyes.I would get references and see where he cut.Hard to do this when there is snow on the ground.I would wait until summer to check the other jobs,than have him cut next winter,if at all.I watched the guy that cut my lot for 20 years.He does nice,pretty work.Don't rush into this.You have to look at it for the rest of your life.One thing,if you do wait,you will be able to see the job he did next door and how well the neighbor feels he treated him with the money part.But check other jobs too.It takes me years to make a decision like this.I'm one to look and look and think and think.I would listen to the forester.Give him a call and see what he thinks.Just like paying for a lawyer.You would listen to a lawyer,so listen to your forester.
Sounds like you don't live on the land?Some loggers cannot be trusted when the land owner is not there.That's where the forester comes in.A percentage,60/40 or better for you 50/50 is common in NE.
Make sure the logger knows where the line is between your land and the neighbor.I would always go see the loggers when the land next to mine was cut.Orange flagging keeps everyone happy.

[JUDGE1162]

I am in the catskills, deleware county

I am guessing baseed on the replys it would make sense to call in a forester before anything get cut.  Thanks for all the replys this forum is great and very informitive.

Thanks again for all the great info and opinions,  please keep them coming

Judge

[IMOWOOD]

If your in the catskills i would give Mike Greason or Douglas Ramey a call.

[stonebroke]

I am in the catskills, deleware county

Judge

So you are in the hills? They grow some nice timber there. I am in Schoharie County

Stonebroke

[stonebroke]

So you are in the hills? They grow some nice timber there. I am in Schoharie county.

Stonebroke

[Magicman]

Welcome to The Forestry Forum.  As you have already found out, there are plenty of answers here......

[captain_crunch]

The way I would like to see it done if I were logging it would be to have you and forester go thru and mark with paint what you want LEFT(makes figureing skid trails and where to fall timber easier) this way at least for me. Then get your bids this way everything is out in the open. Loggers honesty generaly is not a problem around here but their methods of logging make the difference. I would go and look at one of their prior jobs and look at damage to remaining timber and clean up. Clean up is the hard part beings the money has already left so not makeing any money till logging again
Brian