Longleaf Pine

[Magicman]

In March '09 I planted about 75 Longleaf pine plugs.  Now that the grass is dead, I can see that I got a good survival rate.  They are still in the "grass stage", except for one little tree that I found trying to sprout.  It looked like a deer or something had chomped on it's needles.

I know that they have to "set roots" the first year.  Reckon they will send up a shoot this year?
I can see them, now that the grass is dead

 


Here's one sending up a bud.  Taken January 6, 2010.

[Tom]

They can sit in that stage for 3-5 years.   I get Long Leaf volunteering on the sides of my driveway and some will be a couple of years before they "Rocket" and some will be a longer.  That white candle/growth bud is the most typical thing of Long Leaf.  You can spot a Long Leaf by that from great distances.

There is a bud disease that kills most all of mine within 10 years.   It might be brown Spot but I'm  not sure.  I read of a candle blight one time and can't find it.  I hope you don't realize this.  It's disheartening, after so many years, to find that the candle, and then the needles die, leaving you with a long, slim stick of wood with, sometimes, a tuft at the top.

Long Leaf needs fire. That would solve some of our illness problems.  Unfortunately the society is against burning, so pests and diseases alike ravage the trees.  Slash gets out of the ground faster and can survive these early illnesses, but long leaf stays next to the ground for too long.  Study fire when your long leaf gets up some. It sterilizes the field of many of the micro-organizms/disease and kills ticks and chiggers tool

be sure to take plenty of pictures of your trees.  There aren't many people growing Long Leaf and a history of your stand will be important to many in the future.

[ellmoe]

  A quick fire is also supposed to help "release" the longleaf seedling from the grass stage.

Mark

[WDH]

Exactly.  Longleaf adapted to and even requires fire to thrive.

[fishpharmer]

Nice pictures MM.  I recall hearing somewhere, that longleaf withstood the hurricane force winds of Katrina much better than any other species of SYP.   Maybe that's why I read it was used for wooden ship's masts back in the early days.  Sure makes nice lumber

How many years until sawlog harvest for Longleaf?

[VT_Forestry]

Here in VA, the DOF has been doing research for years in an attempt to keep the native Virginia longleaf pine.  The majority that is around is from NC or some other seed source.  I went and looked at a few of the plantations that they had, and they were pretty impressive.  The longleaf was significantly outgrowing loblolly on certain sites, mainly ones that were considered "poor" quality in regards to loblolly.  Longleaf needs a nice deep sandy soil, which from my understanding usually results in poor nutrient retention.  The 10-year old loblolly planted on these sites looked like scrub brush when compared to the same age longleaf planted a compartment over.  At 10-years old the longleaf looked very close to a commercial thinning size.   

[Magicman]

  A quick fire is also supposed to help "release" the longleaf seedling from the grass stage.   Mark 

Exactly.  Longleaf adapted to and even requires fire to thrive. 

Are you saying that I need to burn this grass?

[WDH]

Yes.  However, I am no resource on burning young longleaf pine.  Your state department of Forestry should be able to give you the proper timing and guidelines for a successful burn.  It may be too early to burn the grass this winter, but maybe not, so getting the advice from the state foresters should clear that up. 

Whatever you determine, lets us know, and we will all learn a little in this process!

[Texas Ranger]

Like Danny said, talk to your local agency, or a consultant that knows a little about longleaf, control burns can be dicey, leave it to the pros.

[DanG]

Just going by my own observations over the last few years, I think site conditions have a lot to do with it.  Hardly anyone is planting any pine other than longleaf in this neck of the woods, so I've had a chance to see a bunch of them.  I've not seen anyone burning them intentionally at that young age, and most of them seem to be doing quite well.  My next door neighbor has a nice 40 acre stand that is several years old now, and he hasn't burned them yet.  They look to be 20-25 feet tall now.  I'll check with him about the exact age, and get a few pics.  Anyway, his is an excellent site, IMHO, smack in the middle of prime longleaf country.  The site is an old row-crop field and has no hardwood stands nearby, so weeds and grasses are the only competition the pines have.

Now this is just pure speculation from my basically ignorant perspective, but do y'all think maybe fire is more valuable to longleaf in the lower, wetter sites?  The upland trees around here seem to be thriving whether they get burned or not.

I'm wondering if the problems with Tom's little voluteers might be related to the wet conditions there.  He does live in a swamp, after all.  He was smart to plant loblollies in his plantation, as they seem to sprout with flippers on their roots.

[WDH]

Now this is just pure speculation from my basically ignorant perspective, but do y'all think maybe fire is more valuable to longleaf in the lower, wetter sites? 

In the wet savanna sites, fire is the most critical element.  I have a project to restore a site in St. Tammany parish, LA to the original longleaf wet pine savanna, and fire is the main management weapon.  However, since I am inexperienced with longleaf, I am not sure the timing on the first burn.  It will be much earlier than you might think though, especially when compared to loblolly and slash.

[Magicman]

Wet will not come into play in my situation.  My granddad loved Longleaf pines, so I set these out on his home's house site.  Sorta like a memorial to him.  It's 295' elevation, and the second highest point on the place.  My cabin is at 300'.

In this instance, I could take a lawnmower and remove the bulk of the grass, only leaving a tuff around each set.  It's planted on 10X12 spacing.

The one thing that I did not do was subsoil.  I'll move some pictures and show the site.

[DanG]

Magic, that sounds remarkably similar to my neighbor's site...just about the same elevation.  I'm not sure of your latitude, though.

[Tom]

300 FT. !?!?!?!
I didn't know you lived in the mountains.  

Nature has a way of making up for our insecurities.  Fire is for getting rid of disease as well as trimming back nutrient robbing grass and shrubs.  But when you get miles away from a site of trees, the best you can do is offer a suggestion or opinion.  That is why you need the advise of an on-site forester who is familiar with the program in your area.  

If the seedlings were naturally seeded and seed was no object, you could "play" around some.  But if you dug each hole and plopped a nursery plant in it, that's a lot of work and expence and you need to make sure that what you do doesn't unravel the thread. 

[RynSmith]

I didn't look around their site too much, but you might find some good information at talltimbers.org. 

[Magicman]

I found some pictures.  The first is my Grandparents' home that had been vacant since 1959.  I got tired of paying taxes on it, plus it was ugly.  I had already stripped the usable lumber from it.
 


My entrance with the old house still standing.....
 


Gone
 


My Son on the toy filling up the old cistern
 


As my entrance looks today.  The Longleafs are planted where the house was.....

[Texas Ranger]

Shoot, I kinda like those old houses.  But, longleaf in the grass stage has (around here) a leaf "blight" for lack of a better word, and the fire trims off the damaged needles, and apparently shocks it out of the grass stage.  I believe you need to pretty much not burn real hot, slow cool fire through it to trim the grass and the fungus infected needles.

I used to manage a few long leaf stands, times changed, and now I only look at one sonderagger stand.  Spelling bad on that, but, it is a lob/longleaf natural cross.

[woodtroll]

I don't know much about longleaf but the grass fuel component looks short, easy to burn put a line around it with your son's toy. Should not be to bad. (my 4 yearold son said to add the dancing guy.)

[ellmoe]

Are you saying that I need to burn this grass?

   I don't believe you "need" to burn for the LL to release, but it supposed to stimulate the seedlings. Early in my career I was on a 41,000 acre tract with almost all longleaf and fire was purposely kept out. The LL grew fine, but the chiggers were awful! For some reason the resident forester thought he should protect the seedlings from fire after an outstanding seed crop. So, no burning. Personally, I think he grew up in a slash pine plantation.

Mark

[Ron Scott]

Controlled Burns to Improve Wildlife Habitat, Reduce Wildfire

The Florida Times-Union reported that natural resources officials plan to begin a series of controlled burns intended to improve wildlife habitat and reduce wildfire fuel on state lands in Southeast Georgia. The aim of the burns, they say, is to establish Longleaf pine and wiregrass and to remove dead fuel.

For more information, visit the Florida Times-Union website.

The E-Forester

[DanG]

Interesting, interesting!!  I find it ironic that Ron found this gem of wisdom in the Times-Union, which is the major newspaper in Jacksonville, where Tom lives.  Now, Tom says, and I've seen it myself, J'ville/Duval County is doing everything it can to stifle Forestry in favor of development.  In stark contrast, RynSmith introduced the name, "TallTimbers" into this conversation, which is a truly honest and forthright private organization in my neighborhood.  TT not only conducts studies and educational programs on their own site, they are intensly involved in public education.  During the burn season, there are TV and radio ads all over our area, sponsored by TT, educating the public on the benefits of fire to the forest.  It has had an amazingly positive effect on public attitude, and we do not hear a lot of complaining about the smoke, or the imagined destruction of trees.  The average man on the street around here is aware of the beneficial relationship between wiregrass and the longleaf pine tree, chiefly because of the efforts of this fine PRIVATE organization.

As many of you know, Tom and I are very close friends, and we spend hours every week talking on the phone, when we cannot get face to face.  A lot of what we talk about is the difference between his area of Florida and mine.  It is like being in two separate countries!  In his little corner of the World, forestry is all but dead, and in mine, it is flourishing like nowhere I know of, at least in these depressed times.  It seems that every other truck you meet on the local roads is a log truck!  The Tree Farmer program seems to be going great guns here too, if the appearance of new signs is any indication.  I credit public education, and the regional political climate with this stark difference, and Tall Timbers with walking point on this stewardship patrol.

As WDH has pointed out before, I'm smack-dab in the middle of Longleaf country, and I'm happy to report that the effort to restore Longleaf as the king of the pine world appears to be going very well.

[Tom]

After much searching, I found the article that Ron listed.  It came from a note, written on the 8th (yesterday) and was referring to a burning program in S.E. Georgia, around Brunswick.  It's a long way from Jacksonville, but the egotistical local news media considers it part of jacksonville's metro news area.  What the heck!  Seventy-five miles to the north is local news? 

We can find out that Po Dunk California is having a rain storm and we aren't told that there was a breakout from the County Prison Yesterday?  I'm sorry, my curmudgeoness is showing again. 

Thanks Ron. It really is good news. I wish we had some positive burning press in Jacksonville.

[SwampDonkey]

Light her up Tom. We'll get all kinds of press then. Something about a fire and also a little something about prison. Okay, maybe it ain't so funny but you left the barn door wide open.

[Don K]

We planted 15 acres of long leaf in 2000. the soil conditions were such that they didn't stay in the grass stage long. What did happen though is part of it was overgrown by briars and undesirable hardwoods and really slowed those down. In the winter of 2001my dad and I attacked these few acres in the bottom with brush saws and they really took off. That next winter we burned the whole 15 acres and have burned once since. We missed a burn 2 yrs ago and know it looks rough. A lot of other pines have sprouted on the back side and have killed back the long leaf. They do not thrive with a lot of competition when young. Grass will choke them back if allowed to take over. Most of Daddy's LL are now 15 - 20 ft tall. I will get some pics later.

Don

[Magicman]

I talked with my Forester and also a Plumb Creek guy yesterday at the Forestry Ass'n Director's meeting.  They told me to "light them up".  The first good "burn day"  I'll have some smoke going.  I'll take some pictures, because I want to document every activity with these Long Leaf pines on my tree farm.

[WDH]

I look forward to see your control burn.  I need to burn some too this season.  Loblolly however, not longleaf, and they are 24 years old.  Amazing to think that I planted them 24 years ago  . 

Whats time to a tree???

[Magicman]

Today was the day......to burn....
 


The burn begins
 


Finishing up with my Son and Grandson
 


A scorched little Longleaf Pine seedling

[Clark]

Great pictures Magicman!  I've always found the early development of LL to be very interesting.  You are going to get pictures of them when they take off in the next year or two, right?

Clark

[WDH]

Not many good days to burn this year.  It is good that you could get it done.

[SwampDonkey]

Yesterday folks were burning grass up this way to, but not to release trees. It's the spring fever. The potato fields near here are like dry powder on top, no frost. Still snow around, but going fast.

[fishpharmer]

MM, getting the family together for something as simple as a controlled burn makes for a pleasant day.  Glad it went well.  It should be a nice green by April 3

[SwampDonkey]

Fishfarmer, your up early on a  Sunday.  Gotta feed them fish I suppose.  

[fishpharmer]

FF is the next best thing to sleep.     Rain and maybe thunder woke me. Fish eat better in the afternoon and evening.   MM's, thread on burning made me think of some burning I need to do as well.

[Magicman]

On March 20, we burned my little Long Leaf plantation to release my seedlings from the "grass stage".  Well, they all didn't release, but some of them did.  It was a bit late and some areas had started to green up and didn't burn very well.  I'll get them earlier next year.
 


June 30. 2010.  Some of them are really taking off.

[WDH]

I was asking the Director of the Longleaf Alliance about how soon you could burn planted longleaf, and she said, "There is nothing bad about fire to a longleaf pine."

[Magicman]

This is the same tree that is shown in Reply #33.  This tree has grown a foot in two months.


August 28, 2010.

[Buck]

wish all mine was longleaf

[Magicman]

I only have 60-75 Longleaf Pines.  I planted them on my Grandparent's old housesite as a memorial to them.  My main pine plantations are Loblolly.
 


Smoothing up the housesite and getting ready to plant Longleaf Pines.

[WDH]

That is a great pic of the longleaf seedling going phototrophic!

[Magicman]

The picture in the first post on this thread is of the same tree.


Taken January 6, 2010.

[chain]

It is so dry here,  I believe a fire could start on the river side of the levee and burn all the way to Memphis. I witnessed a fire as such several years ago. I went over to the levee about dusk, the fire was coming through the cottonwoods and willows and nearly every tree had possum vines, as the fire came through it would burn and climb upwards on the vine near the crown before falling back causing sparks and new fires. Also, a full moon came up and the glow and smoke from the fire gave an erie appearance to the red-yellow moon.

[caveman]

It is good to know folks are planting longleaf pines.  I am popping in on this topic way late.  In Florida, the Division of Forestry reccomends prescribed fire for longleaf in the grass stage.  If you are interested in killing off competing hardwoods, best results are to be had by doing a summer burn. 

The longleaf in the grass stage pictured at the beginning of this thread appeared to have brown spot needle blight (it looks a lot like needle cast of pines that loblolly and slash get), which is a fungus that is known as the most serious disease of longleaf in the grass stage.

The DOF usually reccomends burning longleaf every 3-5 years except when they are most vunerable to fire which is when they emerge from the grass stage until they reach a height of 10 feet to their lowest green branch.

Caveman
 

[Magicman]

The little tree featured in the original post, reply #33, & reply #35 are of the same tree.

[Magicman]

I checked my Longleaf Pines yesterday and I see growth in most of the seedlings.


Some look like this.
 


And some are really showing out.

[SwampDonkey]

They are springing into action. 

[semologger]

nice. i wanted to post so i can keep up with how things progress

[WDH]

Candling and busting out of the grass stage!

[Magicman]

This is today's picture of the Longleaf Pine tree shown in replies 33 & 35.  It is now waist high.
 


It decided to grow.

[WDH]

It is growing on a dead fish  .

[Banjo picker]

Nice to see the different stages of growth...Thanks for taking the time to record it for us all....Tim

[SwampDonkey]

It certainly is doing well for a small tree.  Must be something in that sand.

[Magicman]

I had better remember to put some posts, etc. around it to keep a deer from killing it.   

It looks sandy but this is my Grandparent's housesite.  The dirt is so hard in places that grass won't even grow.  Must be something underneath though.

[Ron Scott]

Looking good!

[wmrussel]

Just found this thread.  I've had a couple of failed LL plantings and enjoy following your success.

[Magicman]

It's about time for me to take another picture of that one tree and see how much it has grown.

[WDH]

wmrussel,

The Longleaf Alliance puts on a very good longleaf restoration and management workshop that is well worth the time and expense. 

[wmrussel]

WDH,

Thanks for that info.  I've checked out the LLA webpage and plan on following up.

[Magicman]

A buck found one of my Longleaf Pines.   
 

 

[Banjo picker]

Is the tree toast or will it overcome it?  You need one of my boys to come over and take care of that vandalizer...   Just kidding they can't keep up around here... Banjo

[Magicman]

Is the tree toast or will it overcome it?

I'll watch it and see what happens.  It was just a matter of when...not if.   

[WDH]

I think that it will recover given the resilience of youth.

[customsawyer]

Just found this post and it is looking good.