Patent question

[Ron Wenrich]

I know a few of you guys have done some inventing and even gone the patent route.  So, I have a hypothetical for you.

Lets suppose that someone comes up with a natural product that does something that no one else has discovered, yet.  For this example, lets say that someone has found that the needles of a certain species of pine tree has been found to make paint adhere better to wood, and will last a lot longer.   Can the pine needles new characteristic be patented?  Or do you have to go one step further and identify the chemical in the needles that cause the characteristic?

If it isn't patentable, should you just make the product and do the marketing and hope you're the first in the marketplace?  Or should you try to market the basic raw material?

[woodmills1]

I think a process or a device can be given a patent, I don't know if an idea can be.

[Jasperfield]

First off determine if the subject is an "invention, process, etc." rather than a discovery (which can't be patented). To obtain a patent from this natural material you'd need to "intervene" creatively somewhere between the tree and the till. You're going to have to "do" something proprietary to make this product/process unique.

Then, with a patent attorney, determine if you are surely the first in line with this idea.

Otherwise, determine where the money is.

You'll need a working sample of the product albeit not necessarily in it's final form. Then, depending on the potential of the product, you may eventually retain a firm like Scientific Atlanta to condense, streamline, strengthen, etc., the product. Such a firm can also help significantly to reduce processing/production costs. They are developers, not bottlers, packagers, and so forth.

Following your prototyping you'll probably have a pretty good idea whether to harvest, produce, package, market or do any or all of these operations.

And, you may decide to sell the idea. There are several firms that will find a buyer for you.

And, on a humorous note... I can't imagine that anything further could be developed from a Pine tree beyond what has already been. It's one of the most studied of plants.

[Ironwood]

I looked into a patent once. The upfront cost was significant, and w/ VERY subtle changes a patent can be worked around. The best bet is , if the idea IS novel and patentable, to then sell it to an entity that would find value in it, typically one w/ the "market". You can go a long way w/ a really great idea on your "own", but ultimately if you dont have an outlet(to get it to the customer) then your sunk. You could spend millions just trying to reach the public. That said certain products that may not hold true, if they are say industrial, or industry specific. If the end users can be found easily (what I call a "rifle" approach) in a bounded specialty then perhaps you hold the patent


         Just a few thoughts, Ironwood

[Sprucegum]

I had a patent lawyer tell me'
 "Go ahead with the development and marketing and keep a real good diary of everything you do along the way. Then when you are successful and others are trying to copy it you have the proof that you were first."

He also said " If its not a winner, you won't need me   "

[Jasperfield]

The purpose for the attorney early on is to search for previous applications of same or similar proposals.

[Brucer]

In Canada, you have to have your application filed by a patent agent or attorney. You can't do it yourself. That's to keep the patent office from being overwhelmed with incomplete, inaccurate, ineligible, or just plain dumb ideas.

You can do a lot of your own research -- both US and Canadian patents are available on-line. After that, the patent attorney will give you a much better idea of whether you have a chance of getting a patent.

Patents are expensive, and you have to pay a maintenance fee every 4 years to maintain the patent (maximum life is 15 years). The maintenance fees increase each time. The idea is discourage people from simply sitting on their patents.

I know a guy who was awarded in patent in 1994. He deliberately let it lapse in 1998 so the idea could be freely used by anyone who wanted to. The whole point was to prevent someone else from patenting the idea and making a profit from it.

The US patent office has issued patents on "discovered" genetic material. This is pretty questionable, and Canada refuses to accept patents of this type.

[Gary_C]

Many large companies that develop products like that do not apply for patents and keep the discovery as proprietary or a secret process. If you go the patent route, you have to make specific claims and disclose everything. To do that gives others a guide on what they need to do to get around your patent. And most any patent can be negated by some of these large companies with deeper pockets. There are some US Circuit Courts that almost never uphold a patent and some of these big players know exactly how to get your case in front of those unsympathetic courts.

Some things you should keep in mind. You will need a good bound composition notebook to keep all your notes. It needs to be the kind with numbered pages and you should date everything and have it notarized of verified by a third party. But you can never disclose your potential invention with anyone without a non disclosure agreement. If anyone can step forward and say they thought of that also and can prove it was at the same time or previous, the idea is lost, it's public domain.

But there is one way to hold your idea for a time. you can apply for the patent and till it is either approved or denied, nothing is disclosed. So that is one way for some to make some quick profit from their invention while it is in the application process. And some will prolong that time by repeatedly modifing an application. It's the old patent pending time where everyone waits to see your claims.

That whole patent process is a real crap shoot even for those with deep pockets.

[Ron Wenrich]

Thanks for the insight.  What we have is actually pretty easy to find, if you know where to look.  The application is different from what most people would think.  No, its not pine needles. 

From what I've read on patents, they only give you the right to go after someone who copies you.  There are no patent police, so its up to you to see if someone has copied you, then you have to prove it. 

[SwampDonkey]

Many large companies that develop products like that do not apply for patents and keep the discovery as proprietary or a secret process.

That's what I'd do. Heck, you can't even get McCain Foods to describe the workings of a pea combine. Making potato chips is another one. A local farmer started up a small potato chip plant and they had to learn on there own, there is no one to share the process.

[bandmiller2]

A patent is a tough row to hoe for the small guy,expensive and many times the big guys will change one little thing then flood the market.You take them to court and they drag it out and you don't have the rescorces to continue the battle.Many times first on the market and get a headstart,as stated keep good records and document everything.Frank C.

[woodmills1]

try this

write out your Idea and sign it with a witness

then seal it in an envelope and send it to yourself by registered mail

never open it

If you are challenged then let a judge open it

whadda ya thinks?

[pigman]

Hey Ron, if you give us all of the details of your idea or process we will be better able to help you.

[Brucer]

From what I've read on patents, they only give you the right to go after someone who copies you.  There are no patent police, so its up to you to see if someone has copied you, then you have to prove it. 

More than that, you have to defend it. In other words, if the kid down the street uses your idea to make his skateboard go faster, and you hear about it, you have to go after him ... threatening letters, lawyers, etc. Because if you don't, when a big corporation starts to use your idea they will argue that you haven't been defending your patent.

Same principle applies to Copyright and Trademark. That's why you'll see stories about big corporations like MicroSoft going after some guy running a local consulting business called Mike Rowe Soft (that's a real example, by the way).

A patent is a tough row to hoe for the small guy,expensive and many times the big guys will change one little thing then flood the market.

That's why you need a really good patent attorney. They try to think of every possible variation.

Even then, if someone else patents a modification to your idea, they still have to honour your patent if they use a portion of it.

write out your Idea and sign it with a witness

then seal it in an envelope and send it to yourself by registered mail

never open it

Patents are no longer awarded to the first person to think of the idea. They're awarded to the first person to apply.

If anyone can step forward and say they thought of that also and can prove it was at the same time or previous, the idea is lost, it's public domain.

The idea has to be made available to the public (e.g., published) prior to a patent application in order to prevent the patent from being granted.

Contrary to what most folks think, patents were not created to protect the inventor, they were created to encourage people to disclose their ideas. By giving you enough time to develop your idea and earn some money before anyone else uses it, they hope you'll disclose everything.

[Gary_C]

I've had some dealings with commercial patents and patent attorneys. As one old timer told me once, all patent attorneys should be one armed so they couldn't say "on the other hand." 

[TimRB]

The idea has to be made available to the public (e.g., published) prior to a patent application in order to prevent the patent from being granted.

In the high tech industries, often publishing is done in lieu of patenting.  Publishing puts an idea in the public domain, where it becomes part of the state of the art.  This denies protection to the inventor, but also means that no one else may patent the invention, either.  This is a good approach where an idea may show merit, but not *that* much merit.

Tim (another Tim)

[bandmiller2]

Ron,was thinking of you yesterday TV commercial I think it was called legal zoom ,do it yourself documents a provisional patent about $200 they claim to be legal and binding? Frank C.