"new" back to basics attitudes?

[ljmathias]

Might be this topic isn't worth pursuing but then again it might be.  Was talking to a friend the other day and seems like more and more people are finally "coming to their senses" regarding credit card debt, savings and paying with cash.  I know my wife and I, and I think my two sons and two daughters as well, have all come around to the idea that you really can't spend money you don't have.  Tied in is the savings and planning part.  One of the threads here talked about "my winter project for 2011" and it's that kind of thinking that will eventually get us through these troubled times- planning years in advance and keeping to the plan.  Good things take time, and the "gooder" they are, the more time they take.

Sure, there are things I'd love to have right now- an industrial planar, a shaper/molder and a new car (mine now has over 250,000 on it- odometer gave up the ghost in disgust) but I've put them in the category of "save up the money for each first."  To that end, I'm fixing up stuff I've got laying around to get rid of- make a little cash to use  for projects and new equipment rather than using debt.  We're finally almost out of debt- got the house and land paid off and just have one loan we made our sons just before bad times hit- it'll take three more years to pay that off but then we'll be debt free completely. 

Good feeling to finally (after 43 years of marriage- Dec 29th anniversary) get our finances under control.  Best advice I can give you young people out there: take your time, do it right and don't go into debt.  I was going to add "if at all possible" but if you're like me, that makes for too big a loophole- you can always rationalize needing something right now or something that costs more then you can afford...   

Anyway, what's your sense of how the "economic downturn" is affecting your family and friends?  I don't mean all the trouble and travail that's happened- I think we all know about that.  I've seen evidence that we might be learning from our mistakes and not going back to the same old foolish ways that got us into this mess in the first place, like the investment bankers that we bailed out-- sure would like to have me a nice "bonus" with someone else's money (just kidding).   

Anyway: happy New Year and hope all the best for you all as Spring starts to raise it's glorious head!

Lj

[Cedarman]

This past year we had 3 people order wood and then just not show up.  Locals.  I didn't get a down payment because it was common sizes.  Moved all the material quickly after figuring they weren't coming.  I guess that is one sign of the times.  Makes me get more down payments now on locals.
Overall business has been good.
On borrowing, I have always look at borrowing for capital items that will make me money and items that we don't have to have.  If a planer will pay for itself plus labor to use it in a year then it is a good investment.  This means that planer is making money after labor the second year.  Would never borrow to go on vacation.  If I have the cash for that then ok. Our car has 800 miles to go to hit 300,000.  Every month is a car payment kept in my account.  Makes paying for the next car easier.

Have plans for redoing website and offering some different items too.  Most likely will raise prices as we have had no price resistance for our retail sales.

[timberfaller390]

My main living is shoeing horses. I have not lost any customers since the down turn but I have noticed alot of people paying with cash instead of checks. Alot of folks I know have started keeping enough cash on hand to pay thier local bills and a bank card to pay over the phone.

[zopi]

I would like to see more barter in the economy...I will certainly trade sawing service..or anything else I do for that matter for  goods or services...

[bandmiller2]

Lj,I wish the gov. would take your advice,you can't spend more than you make for long.The more you do for yourself the better,its not what you make its what you spend.Frank C.

[DanG]

Just plain ol' human nature seems to play a big role here.  When people get scared, for whatever reason, they tend to start thinking in a more pragmatic vein.  A recession is one thing that will do it, but wars and political uncertainty will too.  Y2K was a little oddball thing that caused uncertainty and scared a lot of folks into practicallity.  Every time, there are a few folks who discover that they like being more frugal, or enjoy a little dirt under their fingernails.  A much larger percentage will return to their old ways as soon as the scare is past, and convince themselves that the good times will roll forever.

I learned my lesson almost twenty years ago when I created my own private recession and had to fight my way out of it.  It sucked every drop of impractical blood out of me, and I never "recovered."

I have become a thinker, and I think I think right, while knowing I might be thinking wrong.  Oh well, life is a gamble anyway, so if I'm wrong at least I had years of practice at being poor.  The thinking I'm thinking right now is that we are entering a period of raging inflation, and here I am living on a fixed income!  I would be real scared right now if I hadn't put my "mad money" into work equipment.  There is a fair chance that I will enjoy a somewhat prosperous dotage, if Murphy doesn't sneak up on me, and I feel like I will at least be able to avoid sleeping on the sidewalk even if he does.

There is one more piece of equipment I need to make myself feel more secure, and that is a good rotor tiller to help me feed myself.  I was looking around on Craigslist trying to find one on the cheap...say, less than $200...and ended up shucking $8500 + transport on a backhoe.  Maybe I oughta just go down to the store and buy a brand new one, eh?

[ljmathias]

Not so, DanG: the one piece of equipment I use almost every single day on my farm is my tractor with FEL plus backhoe attachments.  It hauls firewood to the house for the fireplace insert, logs to the mill, lumber to the stacks for stickering, lumber from the stacks to put up or use some way, dirt spreading on the various drives and paths through and around the woods, and not the least important, it's 4WD and about the only thing that will unstuck my bush hogging tractor and my son when he decides the bottom land by the creek is drier than it looks... and that's just the start of the list.  Only piece of equipment here that I use more is my fork...   

Lj

[motohed]

Just plain ol' human nature seems to play a big role here.  When people get scared, for whatever reason, they tend to start thinking in a more pragmatic vein.  A recession is one thing that will do it, but wars and political uncertainty will too.  Y2K was a little oddball thing that caused uncertainty and scared a lot of folks into practicallity.  Every time, there are a few folks who discover that they like being more frugal, or enjoy a little dirt under their fingernails.  A much larger percentage will return to their old ways as soon as the scare is past, and convince themselves that the good times will roll forever.

I learned my lesson almost twenty years ago when I created my own private recession and had to fight my way out of it.  It sucked every drop of impractical blood out of me, and I never "recovered."

X2 DanG , I am in my own private recession right now also . I know I will recover at some point , I may end up losing the house , but I will have some equipment left to start again . It won't be the first time , but God willing it will be the last . I have my new found health , a wife and family that loves me , and some old , and very new friends thanks to the Forestry Forum .   So with God's help , I will persavier , we have been thinking about the midwest . I believe it will be Iowa ,  I hope there is a place with lots of tree's . I know thats asking for a lot in Iowa . We will look for a good sized farm , I plan to do some pheasant hunting , Well all hunting actually . I wish it was a rifle state , but I have lived in a shotgun state most of my life .  The cost of living seem to be quite a bit less , and the schools seem to be alot better , atleast according to the research I have done . So wish me luck .

[Tom]

Only piece of equipment here that I use more is my fork...   

That's what my wife says about me too, 'cept she often leaves out "more".  I figure a fella' gets more done with a spoon. 

[DouginUtah]

Would that be a wooden spoon? 

Tom, here is one for you Navy guys:

I got this in an email but found most of the pictures in this link.

http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92244

[Tom]

That's one slick little boat, eh? 

[ForestMan]

Ages past, there was a saying, "Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without."  For the past six years I have lived in a singlewide trailor on my land.  The trailer is paid for and all I have is a $350 land payment.  I love not having a house payment.  The house is not a "looker", but it is functional.  One reason I want to get a sawmill is to produce my own lumber.  With that, I should be able to build my own place, given time.

[ljmathias]

Good plan ForestMan (and the rhyme just came out that way...).  No debt means you control your finances not the banks and the credit card companies.  Was just reading their (evil, selfish, greedy) plans to circumvent the new rules that go into effect soon: basically, if you have a card, or even think about having one, you have to pay and pay and pay... after all, they've got to make up for all the lost revenue caused by their past behavior.  Oh, well, don't give them the satisfaction, is what I say: no cards, no credit, no worries.  As Dave Ramsey keeps saying: what do you need credit for if you always pay cash?

Lj

[Roxie]

I have noticed a lot more folks going back to basics in our area.  There are now clothes lines in developments of "starting at 350,000" homes.  Those folks are hitting the local farmer's markets and this past fall, I had a group of ladies ask me to teach them how to can applesauce.  For my efforts, I got 12 quarts of free applesauce.   

I find it very amusing that the lifestyle we've been living all along is suddenly popular.  I remember my Grandpa used to say that "wood heats twice" ... that's once when you cut it and again when you burn it. 

[red oaks lumber]

roxie,
 to them its a new revelation live with in our means, we were seen as the odd balls now we are cool. or the other buzz word "lean manufacturing" when things get tight we must look for ways to be efficent ok, i have been doing that from day one but, now its a new concept

[ForestMan]

Back when I was a Boy Scout, an older scout wanted to show me how a match burned twice.  He struck it, then blew it out, then proceeded to place the embers on my skin.  Scouts was so much fun...

[Ironwood]

Foxfire reprints here we come.

 Ironwood

[zopi]

That's one slick little boat, eh? 

It's a neat ship, but the Navy is going to have to make a huge paradigm shift in maintenance mentality if the program is to be successful...the idea is to use a very light crew, and to swap equipment modules to fit the anticipated mission...there are a whole lot of tasks on that little tub that they simply do not have the manpower to complete..the systems are pretty high speed though..I met the chief Firecontrolman on one of them...he says the technology is there, and pretty good, but that they work like trojans to keep up with their maintenance and all the admin crap that goes with it...I can relate, I fight the same battle every day..

Admiral Burke said, "This ship is built to fight, and you'd better know how." Unfortunately we wind up having to fight the waterfront for parts, maintenance time, money and support...too many friggin bureauRats in my Navy..

I think I'll retire and buy a sawmill...

Oh, Wait...

[zopi]

Foxfire reprints here we come.

 Ironwood

Got all nine..bought at an auction..for 30 bucks...got electronic copies of about six of them..some of my favorite books....along with Back to Basics...

Permaculture is something else to look at...battery agriculture cannot sustain us..

[Ironwood]

THAT is one COOL boat. WOW I would love to see the specs on that baby.

      Ironwood

[zopi]

ask and ye shall receive...

http://peoships.crane.navy.mil/lcs/

[backwoods sawyer]

Back to basics is my most used book. The kids helped me build them a bus stop and the comments at the store is it may be just a bit tooo rustic for this area. hmmmm

[bandmiller2]

Dan,what you need for a rototiller is an old Gravely walk behind tractor,they can be had reasonable now,the yuppies all want those spiffy ride ons.They will last as long as a granet curbstone.I use one that was built in 1947.Frank C.

[ljmathias]

Speaking of Scout memories and lessons- learned lots in the Scouts, most important lessons were "be prepared" and figure it out.  One memory that sticks in my mind, though, was a camping trip where we took along some of the new members to show them the ropes, so to speak.  One of the older guys, not a well-liked individual who "left" us shortly after this incident, convinced one of the "newbies" that you could see sparks and fireworks if you peed on an electric fence.  One of the new kids sure did- knocked him flat on his back (for some reason, I didn't take the bait so I can't say how bad it really hurt).

Back to topic: very interesting article in the online New York Times this morning on how many families are opting for family "experiences" rather than just buying stuff for their kids.  Experiences like going for walks, canoeing, having a fire-pit at night, just hanging out together.  Wow!  I love it and hope it really catches on- saves money and builds communication to keep the kids out of trouble, plus who knows? The kids might learn something by accident....   

Lj

[Ironwood]

On the New York Times, can you give a link? We've been up to this for years.


       Ironwood

[ljmathias]

Sure: "nytimes.com" gets you the whole thing but the specific link to that article is:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/03/business/economy/03experience.html?th&emc=th

Lj

[metalspinner]

many families are opting for family "experiences" rather than just buying stuff for their kids.

Speaking of family experiences...

A christmas present to the boys this year was that I helped them sort their pile of Legos.  This was no easy task as it took four full days.  Did I mention we have a lot of Legos?    It was like we bought out the Lego store when we were done.

[ErikC]

  That article was kind of interesting. Amazing that people act like this is a new concept though, isn't it? I venture to say most on this forum were raised that way even if they are a little different about it later in life. I also venture to say many on here are still that way now.

[schmism]

Dan,what you need for a rototiller is an old Gravely walk behind tractor,they can be had reasonable now,

no so true.   they were about a year, year-n-half ago.  prices sence then have doubled or trippled due to demand for walk behind tractors for med sized gardens.

The avg price i payed for mine  (i have 5 or 6 in various condition) was about $100.   now your lucky to find a running tractor with single impliment for less than $800  a non-running but complete ones now fetch 300+

we moved from the city out to our property a few years ago.  we put our house on the market right at the start of the houseing slide, but we had already bought our property.   we carried 2 morage payments for nearly 2 years.   at about a 6 months into it we relized we were going to have to make that work for longer than we intended.  we reshuffled priorites and over the next 6 months shifted to mostly cash household.  but it took us nearly 6 months and half our saveings to do it.   after that we could pay for both morgages indefently..... that was untill i was layed off.   we sold the house 4 months after that (FSBO), and haveing never borrowed against it had significant equity that we used to pay off a number of long term bills.   after things settled out, we are saving more every month now with one income than we were with 2.  mostly because of the cash life and living on the property.  (we grow a significant garden, etc)

but we are not untouched by the down turn.  my wife works for a small buisness and up untill recently was mostly unaffected.  but allis she was furlowed (set to return in feb)  back in nov.  IL unemployment pays enough that we are doing fine, but non-the-less our household HAS been affected.

[bandmiller2]

Wow,mayby I should load up some Gravelies and head west.Theirs no great demand here ,that I know of at least.I've got three running and a couple for parts.Years ago bought and sold alot of Gravelies and more important the implements,there all built to last.Frank C.

[Brucer]

All this new stuff is fascinating,isn't it.

There were no battery powered toys when I was a kid. The only powered toy my brother and I had was a train set that you plugged into the wall. We didn't even have a TV -- my dad thought it was a waster of time. We did a lot of reading.

There were plenty of battery powered toys when my daughter was growing up, but we never bought her any. Neither did any of the grandparents. She was perfectly happy with blocks, lego, toy cars, dolls, etc. She didn't get to watch much TV either -- Barb & I dumped the TV when we moved back to BC -- we realized it was a real time water. Other parents were concerned for us -- "How's she going to manage in grade 1 without sesame street?" Same way we did -- she did a lot of reading.

Now I've got a grandson and my son-in-law's cousins and sibling are sending all kinds of battery-powered baby toys. So there's a new rule in my daughter's household: the baby only gets one set of batteries. But I don't think they have to worry. He much prefers his stacking cups, or the xylophone we gave him for Christmas.

I get a chuckle out of the other new stuff, too, like ...

• My mom was thrilled when she got a front-loading washer to replace her ringer-washer. That was around 1955.
• When someone heard my sandwich was made from home-made bread, he asked what kind of a bread machine we had. "Her name's Barb," I replied, "but she doesn't like to be called a machine." 
• One of the guys I worked with had an illicit copy of Dungeons and Dragons running on the company's mainframe computer -- in 1975.

And so on.

[Cedarman]

I can remember playing ring toss as a kid with my brother.  We had a few rubber rings that came with the game. When we got into the rubber canning jar rings we knew we had hit the mother lode.  Game on.

[zopi]

You don't need no stinkin' rototiller..get a mule and a walking beam plow, and do it right...

Since it dried up a bit Sunday, I put the plow on the tractor and attempted to turn the upper garden...like turning concrete...

There was a movie on HMC the other night called "Foxfire,"  Jessica Tandy and John Denver...based on Aunt Arie in the first Foxfire book...Good flick..made me homesick..

[moonhill]

Go the "no till" method, mulch and plant. 

Cool boat.

Debt is a control method, it works.

Tim

[DanG]

I 'preciate all the mule and no-till suggestions, but I'm gonna continue to do it wrong and get a tiller.    I'm doing what I can to get completely out of the equine bidness, and no-till don't work too spiffy down here.  My garden would be a pine forest in a couple of years.  Those pine seeds just love a nice bed of straw to do their procreating on.

[submarinesailor]

I think I'll retire and buy a sawmill...

Been there, done that - - but still having to work for a little while longer.  Working to pay off the girls college loans.

Bruce

[pineywoods]

I 'preciate all the mule and no-till suggestions, but I'm gonna continue to do it wrong and get a tiller.

To quote my ole dad, the tiller don't eat when it's sittin in the barn, the mule expects to be fed every day, workin or not.

[Slingshot]

When I was a kid, about 10 years old, and living in the 'country' with no electricity, my Dad came home
one day with our first motorized appliance. It was a gasoline motor powered washing machine. I thought
that was one cool machine. Had a foot pedal to stomp down to start it (like the old motor scooters) and
the exhaust was a long flexable pipe with a little round muffler on the end that we hung out a window.
Little 1/4 HP engine but it got the job done. Later we moved to a house with electricity and Dad put an
electric motor on the machine and gave me the gasoline motor. I had a ball with it.

________________________________

Charles
            

[DanG]

Slingshot, I saw one of those little Maytag engines at a flea market a few years ago, but the guy wanted too much money for it.  It sure was a neat little rig though!

[Fla._Deadheader]

 WE had the "Original" Maytag Promotion Car. 
It was a sloped back or "Hatchback" design. It was , of course, all metal. Had rubber tires, that finally got too rotten to hold air. I learned how to drive on that thing, and I was about 6-7 years old

  I would back off the compression stroke (2 cycle), and climb up on the sloped back, where the lid raised up for access to the engine. I would "jump" of sorts, onto the pedal, and, hopefully, the engine would start. My Dad bolted a block to the foot feed, so I could give it WOT, and, it had a hand brake lever, on the outside of the cockpit.

  We had a small clearing behind the house, and my Dad used his Taxicab Tractor, to work up the ground into a track, somewhat. I about wore out the dirt with that thing. It had bad compression, and it got worse, and we found another engine, swapped some parts around, and got another year out of it.

  Dad sold it, and then, a few years later, wished he hadn't.  We looked all around the area where he thought the guy lived, but, never saw it again. 

[park ranger]

Dan , as far as tillers for the garden goes my wife has a big garden and we found the big gear drive tillers heavy and too slow even to get to the garden.  We have a 4hp and a 2 hp merry tiller and they till circles around the big gear drive. She runs down the rows with the 2hp to keep the weeds down and sells enough to pay the property taxes every year.

[campy]

Thanks for the wonderful posts. 

For me this is about freedom and slavery.

My aim is to do two things:
1) deleverage - get out of debt
2) demonitize - that means to minimize the use of money as a medium of exchange.  Wood or any commodity can serve as a medium of exchange.   This comes in two basic forms.  The first is to work less for money and earn less money.  The second is to spend less.    Sometimes I trade/barter but usually I am just generous with worthy people.  Another form of this is to simply use my own wood for building or firewood.

Let's all keep this land full of free and brave peole. 

[ForestMan]

Amen campy!  Well said.

[zopi]

da, it's all about the barter...took a young lady over to see a friend of mine about a retirement shadow box, and would up selling some of my big machinery to him, gonna give him a little pallet of red oak, and I'm getting the huge old eastern red cedar out of his front yard for him.

Not bad for one cup of coffee...

I LUUuuuuuuurrrves me some cedar.

[Oregon_Sawyer]

When we built our new house it ended up going over budget.  ALOT.  I just keep whittling the bills down and we are gaining on it.

I try to trade whenever I can.  Over Christmas my 4x4 overheated.  We determined that the radiator was plugged.  Was going to have it rodded and cleaned  out but first I priced a new one.  After I got the price I told him I was going to be reloading 41 magnum ammo soon. His eyes lit up and he went and got his empties and some bullets and powder.  Then he found some 9mm brass that needed to be reloaded.

So with my time (and expertise) and his components I will not have to pay a thing for the new radiator.

Always ask what someone is needing or looking for.

I have a lot of short cedar boards left over.  I am trading for deck furniture and he is going to cut up some logs for firewood for me.

Win win!!