Part Circle Mill Part Band Mill???

[ahiggins1]

Was talking to my dad last night about our old Belsaw mill that is still in a heap.  A hair brained idea came up.  We were wondering if anyone has set up a stationary vertical band mill and used their existing carriage and track from a circle mill to feed the log through?  I guess it would have to be a two man job to run it because the log would have to be set back before you could gig the carriage back.  Any thoughts on this?
Like I said, probably just another hair brained idea that won't work but may cause some discussion.
Thanks for any input.

[york]

nope,there is such a mill built in good old PA-just before you gig back the band head moves back,just enough to clear the log.....then returns to position for next line.....Bert

[jimparamedic]

american sawmill used to offer a band head to go on thier mills and many old time mills upgraded to band when it became profittable for increased production  so alittle tinkering and I think it could be done but the carrage feed would need slowed down and probly would use the widest blade I could

[James P.]

ahiggins, I thought exactly what York said. Have the saw rig move back on return of carriage. I wasn't thinking about the feed which would be considerably slower unless you had a large bandmill. then you get into blade maintenance. I was going to build one myself . I had a yates resaw with a 5 Inch band blade 22 1/2 feet long. It was the initial cost of blades 180 each ,blade maintenance and cost of shipping them to a shop that discouraged me. if a narrower blade will work and you slow down the carriage to a craw I think it would be doable. I personally like the Inserted teeth of a circular mill. Low investment on teeth and sharpening . Either a file or a jockey grinder ,swage ,shank wrench.

[Chico]

All bandmills don't use the recess feature if you use a wide enough band to have sliver teeth you don't need it

[Ron Wenrich]

We had a guy on the forum that put a band headrig coupled with a Frick carriage.  His user name is smwwoody.  Look up his profile, and you can get to all of his posts.  His earliest ones talked about the mill he was building.  He hasn't been on since October.

There was also a Woodland mill.  I believe that was their name.  They built sawmills that used a vertical band.  I liked the way they worked, since it used a lot of gravity to do the work. 

A recess feature wouldn't be that hard to design.  A hydraulic cylinder and the band head put on a pivot.  You don't need to move it much.

The biggest problem might be on feed rates.  Circle mills feed a whole lot faster than a small band.

[Chico]

true feed rates would the setback most mills recess less than an 1/8 I also like the woodland good looking rig

[Bibbyman]

 



The new AWMV (Wood-Mizer Industrial) mill model 4250 kind of falls into carriage and headrig design.  In this case, the carriage only clamps, turns and advances the log and the sawhead moves the length of the log.  The sawhead is nearly vertical at 17 degrees.

http://www.awmv.com/awmv/Products/Saw_and_Carriage_System/4250_version1_overview.aspx

[Fla._Deadheader]

  All the stationary mills down here, use a carriage that moves. Some, the carriage rider sits down to work.



 

[James P.]

Bibbyman, just curious but any idea what a unit like that cost. complete package ready to run. those video are pretty good. Even with dial up they load rather quickly.

[Brian_Rhoad]

I just got the info from AWMV and the 4250 starts at $239,000.

[James P.]

Brian, thanks. I looked at the specs and that is one impressive setup.

[backwoods sawyer]

Depending on the saw that you are running, a foot per sec in a 30” depth of cut can be obtained so you may have to speed up the carriage rather then slow it down. I sawed for an old beam mill that used this style of set up. It had been built back in the early 50’s and 125,000 per shift was the norm. The big thing is you need to plan for a “rip-out” so that the cant does not slide down into the saw and hit the guide.

[Ron Wenrich]

Did you run those feed rates with a narrow band saw?  I was under the impression that is what the original poster was talking about.

As for the Woodmizer, sure looks a lot like the old Sanborn mills.  But, I think that is still a stationary carriage.  Is it designed as a primary mill or a resaw?

[bandmiller2]

Hig 1,sure it would work but with no real advantage over the Belsaw circle setup.The usual advantage of a thin kerf band mill is you don't have to have the heavy foundation and carriage to move heavy logs,you just move a light duty bandhead over the stationary log.With the band you can cut with a fraction of the HP of a circular.Alot of us are wondering you own a Belsaw why not set it up the way nature intended?? Frank C.

[ahiggins1]

We are planning on setting the Belsaw mill up the way it was supposed to be.  We are just still looking for a blade for it right now.  The vertical band head was just an idea that sounded kind of neat.  We like to build things and it sounded like a good challenge.  I know I have said before that dad is 81 years old, but he still likes messing with this kind of stuff.  He still butchers his own hogs, calves and deer and has a bandsaw to cut it up with that he built from scratch.  So, building a vertical band head for a mill wouldn't be out of the relm of possibilities.  I have been wanting to set up a mill again for a while, but also it has been good for the old man to have something to do in the shop this winter.  The carriage needed some attention, so he has been getting that back together and all limbered up.  This old mill has been outside in a pile for quite a few years.
Thanks for all the replies,
Andy

[Bibbyman]

Did you run those feed rates with a narrow band saw?  I was under the impression that is what the original poster was talking about.

As for the Woodmizer, sure looks a lot like the old Sanborn mills.  But, I think that is still a stationary carriage.  Is it designed as a primary mill or a resaw?

The AWMV 4250 has a Cleereman carrage and it is stationary - with the head moving.  I'm sure it's intended to be the primary breakdown headrig.  It runs a 2" wide blade from my memory.

[Chico]

That'll hurt the feed rate some It doesn't take as big a rig as some think to really cut some good lumber I've sawn on 48s and 54s and sawed in excess of 100000 a shift with the right secondary equip you get a saw about 4 or 4 .5 " on a good mill and the rt ga you can feed the dog out of it That mill looks a lot like a Sanborn. Cleereman makes good stuff I used one of their carriages for about 10 myrs and loved it simple and proficient

[Bibbyman]

That'll hurt the feed rate some It doesn't take as big a rig as some think to really cut some good lumber I've sawn on 48s and 54s and sawed in excess of 100000 a shift with the right secondary equip

Chico,  Some translation please. 

When you say “48s and 54s” you’re talking about circle mill with 48” or 54” blade?

Do you mean 100,000 bf/8 hr shift?

What size logs were you sawing?

Where you just knocking four faces and sending them on to secondary? Or were you sawing out some dimension cant?

How many people in the operation to make final product to ship?

I’m a little rusty with my math but if the logs were BIG would they average 250 bf Doyle?  That would take 400 logs/shift at 50 logs/hr or 72 seconds to break each log down average.

Our oak logs probably average more like 50 bf Doyle.  To do 100,000 bf/shift would take 2000 logs or 250/hr or a bit over 14 seconds per log. 

[Ron Wenrich]

We have a local mill that claims 1,000,000 bf per week.  But, that's running 3 shifts, and its a circle mill with 2 resaws.  Resaws act very similar to a headrig.  It takes time away from the primary headrig and allows the circle mill to break down logs.  I look at this as a mill with 3 headrigs.

If you do the math, that comes out to an average of a little over 22 Mbf/saw/8 hr shift.  Throw that on an hourly basis and you have a little under 2800 bf/hr. 

This particular mill doesn't cut small logs.  They are interested mainly in large logs with good lengths.  If you use your 250 bf/log, then you're down to 12 logs/hr or 5 min/log.  That math works.

At 50 bf/log, you're still at 1 min/log.  That's possible but hard to maintain as an average, especially in oak or hickory.  My average in logs like this are 3 min/log in oak, and about 2½ min/log in tulip poplar, using a single headrig.

[bandmiller2]

Andy,no reason you and dad shouldn't try it,you can always use the Belsaw with a headsaw when you find one.Theirs alot on the forum on building bandsaws you just have to tip it verticle.Would be alot easier to power a stationary head.If I ever build anouther bandmill I'll use those donut spare tires that come with the newer cars,big "V" pulleys are expensive.I'am glad your dad is so active seems if you keep moving nothing will catch up to you.Frank C.

[sdunston]

Before I got my lt28 I used to get all my lumber from an amish guy that had a band mill with 40' feet of carage that travled. The head(band) was mounted horz and it also had a debarker, hyd head movement and a hyd motor that pulled the cable to move the carage. It was very productive in the fact that after each cut the cant was moved bach for off loading. He had a stand for the fitches and rollers for the lumber and the slabs were tossed out the window. I wish I could get some pictures but the amish think camera's are taboo
Sam

[Bibbyman]

I wish I could get some pictures but the amish think camera's are taboo
Sam

They'd probably let you take pictures if you ask and make sure you don't get them or especialy their faces in the picture.

[backwoods sawyer]

5.8 blocks a min, with a 12.5” average in a 10 hr shift will give you 3,500 blocks, blocks are ran in 8’,  9’ and 10’ lengths and the owner wants to double production and maintain quality, can it be done? Sure can, if you have the millions to put into equipment, and the operators that can keep up with the pace. Now run that mill 14 shifts a week and you will have to upgrade the kilns and planner to keep up with the production increases as well. Can band mills handle faster feed speeds? You bet they can if you put the right saw on them. Now compare the amount of sawdust in the conveyor to a round saw. Why sell chips when you can sell lumber?

[ahiggins1]

Frank C,
We really enjoy seeing what we can build.  We are not as creative as some folks.  We don't have fancy tools, but it is neat to see what you can do with scrap iron, torch and welder.  We are going to go ahead and set the Belsaw up as it was meant to be.  The circle mill is what dad is used to and understands.  It will be neat to see him sawing again after all these years.
However, I may see about building a band mill in the future -- just because....
Andy

[Chico]

I'm talking about a 48" bandmill and a 54' band mill and yes that's an 8 hr run I could single line 3000 min on a 54 with a single 4x6 out of the heart it takes a good rig but I've only been sawing 40 yrs you don't have to study the face of a log log just decide and cut it I'm sure as long as you've been at it you do it by instinct  last mill I sawed for prod was a million ft a week 52 weeks a yr with a 7' hr a 7' linebar and a gang used for lowgrade both shifts ran 40 hr weeks all were either hi strain or dead strain mills yes they were good logs all the small logs went to a seperate mill with a scragg the last pine mill I was in cut between 1/2 and 3/4 mil ft a 10 hr shift and were shooting for a mill a shift that's not uncommon for a lot of southern pine mills

[old joe]

You guys are in a whole oyher world.  I'm happy to get through a day with a stack of lumber and no breakdowns.

Joe