Author Topic: Biomass boilers (more coming) (Read 1937 times)

Ironwood · « **on:** December 11, 2009, 09:04:47 pm »

After reading several other threads, including "whole tree harvesting" I decided to start a thread about the iimpact of biomass boilers.

Locally, the tree services in the city (Pittsburgh) seem to really move alot of material to these operations. There is supposed to be another "going online" soon.

As a guy who wants and searches for Urban logs and sources of material, this seems to my biggest threat to my supply line. Most small tree ops cant justify the capital to make this work for their operations, but certainly the bigger ones can/ do. I need to research this a bit more, and go out and talk to the operations supplying the "tonnage" to the boilers. My "modus operandi" would be to train the owners, foreman to what I want and then get my wallet out to make it worth their while.

Anyone else seeing this? Just a thought, and I think worth discussing.

A link to a company w/ their ear to the ground

http://www.risiinfo.com/risi-store/do/product/detail/wood-biomass-projects-database.html?gclid=CO6Bi7Huz54CFVw55QodUi_Nrw

Ironwood

Gary_C · « **Reply #1 on:** December 12, 2009, 09:25:17 am »

You have just seen the tip of the iceberg so far. Just wait till the government gets done opening their (your) wallet on the biomass program. There are already some large loggers buying up potential biomass jobs to get paid twice for that biomass.

You are really going to have to open up your wallet to compete with your own tax dollars.

Biomass Crop Assistance Program for FSA

I doubt it will be on the same scale as the "black liquor" handout as they have a limited amount of money allocated, but it sure will distort the markets for a while.

Kansas · « **Reply #2 on:** December 12, 2009, 11:05:36 am »

I was in a meeting last week where we heard from a guy explaining their biomass operation in western kansas. Originally, they were going to use farm biomass to make pellets; that didn't work. Then they switched to pallet recycling waste. They don't have enough of that so they are importing blue stain pine from Colorado and Wyoming. The government matches dollar for dollar the cost of the material, so basically the government is paying for the trucking into their location. I know they are struggling to get this off the ground, but how in the world do you justify taxpayer dollars to truck material at least 300 miles. It does sound like that program might end before too long.

I don't mind some seed money from the government to help get these things started, but eventually they have to stand on their own. The one question I wonder, and have not been able to find out, is what is the economics of taking green logs, landfill trees, etc, and turning it into BTU's. That is, what can be realistically paid for green wood. It worries me that clear cutting could be a possibility, expecially if the government matches dollar for dollar the cost of the raw material.

Hilltop366 · « **Reply #3 on:** December 12, 2009, 11:22:05 am »

It does makes you wonder how many btu's and non renewable fuels are used up getting the biomass cut hauled processed compared to what you get out of the biomass?

Ironwood · « **Reply #4 on:** December 12, 2009, 01:35:25 pm »

Yup, that WILL distort the market for awhile. Thanks for the link.

Ironwood

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #5 on:** December 12, 2009, 04:52:45 pm »

Why does the hauling have to be 300 miles, 500 miles? Is it because the state supplying the wood has tighter regulations? Why bother setting up shop if you have to haul so far? Seems like a business plan is lacking. If there is a subsidy it should go into a plan to determine the feasibility, then equipment. If your in an area that harvesting is very limited it's time to move your operations to a more active market. Something like that should also be targeted in areas with a lot of low grade or under utilized species, but on above average growing sites. I see it using wood from well managed woods to improve quality. Chances are it will encourage clearcuts because that's where the quick dollars come from and far fewer entries. However, improvement cuts would reach far more forest stands and larger acreages if there are a lot of participants, instead of just mowing trees down on smaller acreages. Is it going to be competitive? So far it seems so up here. Boralex in Fort Fairfield had it's contract renewed by the State of Maine. Most chips to that plant are imported from NB. Boralex is a Quebec company.

red oaks lumber · « **Reply #6 on:** December 12, 2009, 05:02:09 pm »

the talk around here is clearcut the properties, chip it all for the mills.(electric,pellet,paper) the reasoning more dollars per acre. boy if this method takes ahold hell, i'll be able to "see russia from my house"

Ironwood · « **Reply #7 on:** December 12, 2009, 05:43:48 pm »

Boy howdy, that sure seems it would encourage clearcutting. Big capital, BIG cutting.

Ironwood

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #8 on:** December 12, 2009, 06:12:47 pm »

Clearcutting is nothing new. I can say that most of the Boralex biomass is from clearcuts. But, most areas there are size limits, adjacency to uncut stands, and "establishment to free growing" condition, followed up by spacing. Clearcutting and standing back and doing nothing decreases future stem size at the end of the rotation, grows weak stemmed trees, does not allow selection of more desired and better quality trees for future crop trees. If you don't reinvest in the forest after a clearcut than "law of diminishing returns". Sometimes a clearcut is the best alternative if you've got a lot of low grade wood.

WDH · « **Reply #9 on:** December 12, 2009, 06:33:30 pm »

The hope is that these consumers of biomass will create a market for the low grade and the cull left over from years of select cutting and poor forest management.

The price will be low, generally expected to be about the same price as pulpwood or less, so the focus on growing quality sawtimber will still be there.

Cedarman · « **Reply #10 on:** December 12, 2009, 07:57:01 pm »

Someone logged the tree in western Kansas a few years ago and now there are no more.

Ironwood · « **Reply #11 on:** December 12, 2009, 09:33:37 pm »

Yeah, there are a bunch in Eastern Kansas, I was stationed at Ft. Riley for a while.

Ironwood

Kansas · « **Reply #12 on:** December 12, 2009, 10:12:09 pm »

Cedarman, I did ask the guy why they weren't utilizing the eastern red cedar or the salt cedar out there. His reply was that in order to make pellets, everything has to be debarked. Something about ash content and getting it through the pelleter.
I don't imagine trying to debark a bunch of pasture cedar would pan out too well.

And we have some nice timber out in western Kansas. We hide them in the mountains out there.

Ironwood · « **Reply #13 on:** December 12, 2009, 10:18:58 pm »

Actually Eastern Kansas, the trees are hidden in the valleys out of the wind. And,..... a,.... are there mountains in western Kansas? I musta missed that part of the drive.

Ironwood

stonebroke · « **Reply #14 on:** December 13, 2009, 12:46:05 pm »

Quote from: Ironwood on December 12, 2009, 10:18:58 pm

Actually Eastern Kansas, the trees are hidden in the valleys out of the wind. And,..... a,.... are there mountains in western Kansas? I musta missed that part of the drive.

Ironwood

The mountains of western kansas must be all of what 20 or30 feet high. It all in your perspective when everything else is pooltable flat a little hill seems like a mountain.

Stonebroke

Ironwood · « **Reply #15 on:** December 13, 2009, 01:31:31 pm »

I was actually stationed at Ft. Riley for a spell. I had alot of time recreating in that area (and driving to Colorado to climb).

Ironwood

Kansas · « **Reply #16 on:** December 13, 2009, 01:57:09 pm »

We don't tell people about our mountains so we can keep them to ourselves, keep the tourists from showing up. And we sure do a good job of that. Trying to find a tourist in Kansas is like trying to find a sympathetic IRS agent.

Ironwood · « **Reply #17 on:** December 13, 2009, 02:08:18 pm »

I actually found the sweeping views and vastness of Kansas quite beautiful. I especially like the bluffs and pairie views off I-70. I duck and goose hunted ALOT on the Corps many damns/ resevoirs. Also, almost sunk a pontoon boat on on one of them

Dont ask, lets just say the wind BLOWS fast and 20 HP aint enough to outrun whitecaps

Ironwood

Cedarman · « **Reply #18 on:** December 13, 2009, 05:32:08 pm »

The chalk cliffs south of Oakley are really neat. The Fick museum with the sod house and other homesteader things is neat too.

Bliss tried ERC in his pellet machines and it worked fine except it burned too hot. They mixed it with oak and it worked perfect. Bark content of cedar is not that large. Trees that are dead 2 years usually lose a lot of bark in the mulching process. Also cedar trees that dry with their limbs on dry down to a low moisture content . You can haul more dry matter per truck load and drying costs are much reduced. I think it is only a matter of time before more ERC is used in pellet making.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #19 on:** December 13, 2009, 07:16:54 pm »

Yeah, ERC has a lot less moisture than other species when even green. The information on moisture content of different species just has to be taken advantage of. The average moister content green and @ 12 % has been published for years. Doug. Fir is another one, which is almost as dry as your gonna get right off the stump. Might loose a couple pounds per cubic foot, that's it.

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Author Topic: Biomass boilers (more coming) (Read 1937 times)