Standing cut trees

[jdtuttle]

I was hunting on State Land yesterday and saw something I never saw before & was hoping some of you knowledgeable foresters would have an answer. Bordering the state land is a woodlot I wandered on to. I noticed alot of standing dead pine. Closer inspection showed they had been cut with a chainsaw about 3' above the ground. There was only a couple inches left in tact. The trees were of poor quality. Is this a common woodlot management practice to remove inferior trees? Seems a little dangerous to me. We were having wind gusts of 40mph yesterday so I didn't stay there long
jim

[bill m]

Yes, it is what is called TSI  timber stand improvement. They do that to release the crown of trees they want to grow. They ring the trees instead of cutting them down for a number of reasons one being cost. I'm sure one of the foresters on here can give you a more detailed explanation.

[woodtroll]

It is called girdling. It is done to kill the tree with out cutting it down.
I am with you, it makes a dangerous stand on windy days.
The other problem with it is when the the girdle is not completed correctly, then the tree is stressed and develops rot at 3' up.

[timberjack240]

well there s a cpl ways to look at it.. the way i look at it is id like to play ring around w the idoit that marks hundreds of those on timber harvest sites. the guy sprayin the paint usually isnt the guy swingin a 30 lb saw w a 24 in bar around a 5 in hemlock tree that you have to cut 30 limbs off to get into.. now thats from  a cutter point of view that has a skidder poundin you all day. i dont agree with the 3' thing either .. cut it off at the ground where you supposed to if the tree hangs up run it down w the skidder. theres no high stup that way  . it takes longer ro cut rings around trees than it does to jsutt cut it off .. alwyas did for me any way.. not to mention if you cut it down its on the ground and its not gonna fall on you while your workin around it if you cut to deep. or anybody else for that matter... ive seen it done one time it was a better idea .. about a 24 in gum tree beside our bridge taht woulda been in the road .. cut a ring left it for the squirrles. it had to be done in a hemlock patch to . other than that we put em on the ground were they belong whether there run or cut down.. p.s. i dont mean to offend anybody this is just my opinion from a production logging point of view espcieally gettin paid peice rate cause ring trees dont pay anyhting

[rickywashere]

i have seen that practice lots of time and its more dangerous than any other way i can think of to rid yourself of unwanted trees  falling dead limbs or the whole tree for that matter /// after lots thinking on the subject only thing i can think of the reason for doing it ,is so there is no damage to the good standing time they want to leave.BUt i tell you this i would not go into a grove of timber and start cutting with all that mess just hanging there i would end up going through and cutting the dead half hanging crap before i cut the first tree

[maple flats]

I heartily agree and I will never girdle a tree. Cut it down even if it just lays there. A standing girdled tree is very dangerous after a little time has passed and I don't want to be the one to pass by when a girdled one decides to topple later on.

[PAFaller]

I am not going to argue with any of you because I feel the same way about girdled trees making for an unsafe woods. However, there are some folks who like to kill trees slowly, especially in nice hardwood stands. The train of thought is that if the girdled trees die off slowly, and the crowns of the remaining trees keep up with growing into the new space, you will again have filtered sunlight. This is what needs to happen for maintaining clean boles in higher valued trees. Cut too much around a nice 15 inch white oak and the quality actually degrades when it starts producing epicormic branches. Girdling is an attempt to do TSI and weed out the junk but not inadvertently lower the grade of the remaining timber. I have never been in too many woodlots where a lot of that has been done, but it seems to make sense on paper anyhow. Its also a good way to prep firewood. There was a farmer I knew who would do that to 10-15 trees a year growing around his fields. Two years later its standing dry stuff. He never seemed to have time to get it cut and drying ahead of time, so that made sense for him.

[jdtuttle]

Thanks for helpimg me understand what I was looking at. I beleive this type of management practice may be beneficial in some circumstances but certainly lacks in safety. I won't be looking for deer in this area again.

I am not going to argue with any of you because I feel the same way about girdled trees making for an unsafe woods.

Me too, PA faller!

the way i look at it is id like to play ring around w the idoit that marks hundreds of those on timber harvest sites. the guy sprayin the paint usually isnt the guy swingin a 30 lb saw w a 24 in bar around a 5 in hemlock tree that you have to cut 30 limbs off to get into

Timberjack, I like the way you express yourself
jim

[Rocky_Ranger]

When I first seen the title I thought it was about standing trees that had been cut - as in down.  Thoughts went to Christmas tree farming first, then I read the thing and it was centered on girdling. 

I don't know what has happened here but the amount of discussion on forestry and logging sure has picked up.  It's more than the general stuff thread - I like that, I make my living on forestry and logging so keeping up with the discussions certainly helps.  We been logging tornado salvage for a few months, proud it's over.  Never want to see any other storm like that, made lots of "coarse woody debris" for the soil nutrient recycling............(different topic, I reckon).   

[WDH]

That standing dead wood is good for all kinds of creatures and critters, just not humans  .

[ickirby]

The train of thought is that if the girdled trees die off slowly, and the crowns of the remaining trees keep up with growing into the new space, you will again have filtered sunlight. This is what needs to happen for maintaining clean boles in higher valued trees. Cut too much around a nice 15 inch white oak and the quality actually degrades when it starts producing epicormic branches.

I would agree that is a common thought with a lot of TSI work that I have seen as well.  Although I would recommend to limit that practice to taking out pole sized (4" dbh) and smaller.  The problem is that if you start to girdle trees any larger than that and allowing them to fall wherever the wind takes them in a couple years you will do more damage to the crowns of the remaining trees than the epicormic branching would have caused.  Directionally felling those trees to the ground and utilizing them would be far more desirable, if you ask me.

[ford62783]

ive also seen girdles in trees none of which that deep but i dnt agree with it unless it is in a dangerouse place for a skidder to get to but for the most part if u cut it and send it for pulp wood its not a total waste

[stonebroke]

would it not be better to girdle a large wolf tree and just let it come to the ground gradually over many years than to mash a whole lot of other trees?

Stonebroke

[chucker]

girdling, is done here mostly on paper birch... ppl taking the bark for crafts and such makeing it dangerious for anyone working in the woods!! i would not perform this act as it is destructive to many other living species. not much differant then spikeing a tree!!!!!!

[WDH]

Dead and down wood is very beneficial to wildlife.  A host of bugs and critters use the dead and down wood.  The insects and fungii create a food chain.  Woodpeckers abound. 

It is unsightly to humans, and can be dangerous if you are not aware of the danger of something falling on you, but dead standing trees are common in nature and have there place.  It is hard for me to see it as akin to spiking trees, but I respect your opinion.

[John Mc]

girdling, is done here mostly on paper birch... ppl taking the bark for crafts and such makeing it dangerious for anyone working in the woods!! i would not perform this act as it is destructive to many other living species. not much differant then spikeing a tree!!!!!!

Standing dead trees of good size are an important wildlife resource. If you are considering wildlife in your management plan, there are recommendations of so many snags per acre (can't remember the number offhand, but we're generally talking single digits, not dozens as some people seem to be encountering).

[chevytaHOE5674]

I generally try to leave 2-4 snags per acre greater than 10" at DBH. If they don't exist I have gone back and girdled them. A stand with no human intervention would have standing snags all the same, so its really no different.

Standing dead trees are good for many small mammal species, birds, and bugs etc.

[indiaxman1]

Had a forester recommend years ago to girdle/cut the pines and gums....let the oak and tulip thrive...I found nature took care of most small pines...blowdowns...I did girdle large water maple..three years ago..its still standing, and creeps me out when working in the area...on foot or in truck...its near log road....if you have ever been smacked by widow maker....small one knocked me down...so I keep eyeballs peeled, wear hardhat, and cut em down....

[maple flats]

I do have a few snags per acre. What I am saying I won't do is to girdle a stand so a large number of dead and compromised trees are in an area. I have at least 2 snags per acre but usually not more than 4. On my TSI I drop the under 4-5" ones and often let them lay, if over about 5" I cut and make firewood if it is worthy of firewood, some are not but most are. What scares me is to see a concentration of girdled trees where one can cause the domino effect and create a very dangerous picture.

[WDH]

Yes, one must be judicious with the girdle  .

[John Mc]

What scares me is to see a concentration of girdled trees where one can cause the domino effect and create a very dangerous picture.

I hear you on that one.  With the time it takes to girdle, you have to wonder why they didn't just lay them down in the first place. If it's really a concentration of girdled trees, you'd think they could drop them without damaging the "keepers".

[chevytaHOE5674]

With the time it takes to girdle, you have to wonder why they didn't just lay them down in the first place.

Many do it for wildlife purposes. Trees on the ground don't serve the same purpose.

[Mark K]

The mill I do contract work for has the woods marked before cutting starts trees are marked wit a -,X and a C. X trees are usaully dead,must be put to the ground and c trees are cull. They tell us to fall the tree's marked c if possible and leave them to rot unless you can make firewood. If there isn't a clear path to fall the tree we are told to girdle them so they die slow and do less damage.  

[timberjack240]

our cull trees are marked x as far as dead trees we can cut em as a danger factor .. if there ok inside we can take em in for logs  often times i knock em down so they dont sneak up on me later  anyhting i cut i make sure gets knocked down even if i gotta use the skidder. and if culls are bad there left lay like mark k said and the dead ones if we dont use for logs we take home for our own firewood  makes for prime burnin