whole tree harvesting

[SwampDonkey]

If it's a clear cut, I like trails stuck to, so regen isn't destroyed. Nothing burns me more to see a fully stocked understory destroyed by machinery going every which way imaginable.  I've seen spruce take a hold in (regenerate) those old skidder trails better than when trees are forwarded. All I seen all summer was either bare forwarding trails that had to be planted, or forwarding trails with nothing but pin cherry and raspberry bushes. Slash is never much trouble here, it's all gone in 10 years. Even from brush saw work, 10 years and clean as the floor. The best maple and yellow birch regeneration I've seen around here on hardwood clearcuts was after the wood was twitched by skidders. And extremely thick, often times two layers of regen.  The advanced ones already there, and from the newest seed that fell. One guy tried to convince me his processor would protect the regen. When he was done fishing around to find the buts of every tree with that felling head he had 80 % of the softwood regen chewed up. It wasn't little 1 foot regen, it was advanced.

[Rocky_Ranger]

Due to our reliance on mechanized logging here we almost always have "pull through" delimbers on the landings; I only know of one saw crew still left in the woods.  Either Belsaw or Hydro Axe harvesters, the biggest skidders you can get through the woods, pull through delimbers and four bunk trucks.  Production has to be high to make any $, lots of steel on the ground and diesel guzzling utensils working.  Back in Colorado we had a side that used a "danglehead" delimber and one using a "stroke".  Seen more "strokes" in Oregon.  I haven't really seen any more damage from whole tree than CTL's.  We can argue over skidder passes on the ground (compaction) vs damage to residual trees, but using "bumper trees" along the skid trail and then cutting them last seems to work well.

Swamp, our clearcuts don't got no regeneration, wait a couple years and we do.  Very little clearcutting, mainly seed trees and either first or mature thinnings.  Limits on regen area sizes prompts more attention to thinning the stands.  We log hardwoods here too, only district on this Forest to do so.  It's either mark and sell it or herbicide it and let it die and fall......  Makes sense to me to sell it.  I had some "push back" right after I got here due to a reluctance to sell the hardwood - some didn't think there was a market for it.  I always eat lunch out back on the picnic table during the summer and I kept seeing all these "brush piles" going down the road/highway.  Somebody thought hardwood made a good chip - now, so do we........  Just different merchantability specs for the hardwoods - as one would expect.

[240b]

It sounds like many foresters here are having a hard time getting high quailty work done in the woods. It is pretty standard to haul slash off the landing and not drive thur the regen here. (vt) Most of the bad apples have left the woods here in vt.  Also, I've seen pretty crude work accomplished with horses, farm tractors, dozers, forwarders,skidders (big and small). IT boils down the operater in the end.  The damage you cause is your legacy. I work with in 10 miles of my home ( average 3 miles ) so people know what I do. I don't understand people willing to trash their land for a few extra $.  Takes all kinds I guess.

[timberjack240]

im not big on te idea of ctl loggin w a cable skidder . w a fowarder or prehauler maybe but def not w a skidder

[ncsuclell]

Timberjack,
When you say CTL are you talking about CTL in the woods or on the deck?  TL or CTL: doesn't matter if you are skidding the whole tree to the deck anyways.  If you mean CTL in the woods the best way, in my opinion is with a forwarder.  But of course, I'm young and have only seen one operation using a forwarder.

Most loggers around here (FL) will merchandise for both.  When I cruise I look for what would give me the best profit based on the prices I get at the mill.  Thats the way it was when I was in NC as well.

[SwampDonkey]

Most woodlot logging here is by cable skidder and mostly clear cuts or usually what's left should be cut to. A handful of processors, but usually grapple skidder with them. Tree length usually. Some CTL, but very small volumes here and there. The wood isn't worth enough with high stumpage being paid.

[Ron Scott]

My jobs are 99% cut to length at the stump. Forwarders remove the cut products.

[SwampDonkey]

Just driving by a couple logging operations here today and they were all skidder. Mostly aspen and fir being harvested. The markets are tree length for pulpwood. I saw 3 other skidders sitting in yards, one guy has 2 John Deeres. One operation up the road is using a farm tractor, skidding tree length into the field, but very slow going and small volumes. Loads are send out by straight truck, maybe once every week or two, owner of the farm is cutting it. He owns a lot of land and doesn't even make a dent in the amount of wood he cuts.

[Samuel]

It comes down to the company operations and the on the ground work.  We whole tree chip in the bush and haul the hog fuel to town for the power boiler if it is within the sweet spot (75 km haul distance).  We also have a down woody debris requirement under provincial legislation as well leave 15 % retention left standing across the landscape on average.  On top of this, there is understory protection measures put in place for young spruce in our mixed aspen/spruce stands, as well, if there is a lot of spruce in a block, and our retention left resembles what was previously there, them spruce will be left standing and a few extra aspen/poplar trees to help keep them windfirm.

Check these pictures out and see what you think of our operations as it relates to soil quality.

http://www.dmi.ca/about_dmi/dmi_in_alberta/prpd/media_gallery/criterion_1/

[madhatte]

My opinion:  lop/scatter tops to retain fixed soil nutrients.  Burn to control fuels.  Underplant to encourage uneven-aged/sized stand structure.  Thin with an eye to both frequency and patchiness.  Avoid clearcuts at all costs.  Avoid scarification as site prep at all costs.  Take the long view of land management rather than worrying about stockholders.  Listen to the permie weirdos when they make sense. 

[SwampDonkey]

We don't have trouble with regen, so under planting isn't an option. Mostly, the understory is fully stocked with shade tolerant species. Fir, cedar, maple, beech, red spruce. Certainly can't plant pine or oak in under, won't live, and will be browsed to death by hare. Even spruce regen get hit hard. They will find and nip about any spruce unless a thicket of fir is growing up around it or the spruce is thick like dog hair itself. If thick, a few browsed ones don't matter.

[BrandonTN]

http://www.treesearch.fs.fed.us/pubs/4259

Dr. Tat Smith...he's at the University of Toronto. He specializes in studying the effects of timber harvesting on forest soils, and asking "what is sustainable forestry?"

[Rocky_Ranger]

One of our biggest successes here is clearcutting that was done 15 - 20 years ago, planted to improved loblolly (shortleaf sites) and we are now thinning and getting 8 - 10 Ccf/acre removed and still leaving 60 - 70 sq ft.  Our Forest Plan has since changed so we can only plant shortleaf back in regen sites (mainly seed trees, 5 - 10 sq/acre leave).  Still very effective in pine & pine/hardwood lands.  Only clearcutting we can do is in plantations of at least 35 years old and loblolly pine.  Nasty lob, only thing it's good for is growing timber - fast!

[Samuel]

Just so I am clear, what are you calling a plantation, a cut block that was planted or a filed converted to trees?  Sometimes this gets Grey, especially when you start talking FSC and certification.

[Rocky_Ranger]

Our plantations are regenerated clearcuts (as in previously timbered).  Plantation = trees in a row, all of the same age class.   Can also happen in seed trees but not as spatially attractive (to me, anyway).

[timberjack240]

ncsuclell
i dont know what you mean by takin them to the deck. we cut the tree down top it out lop the tops drag 3-5 at a time to either the pile or a slasher . theyre sawed apart and contract haulers keep them hauled to the mill that were contracted to. we dont cut them int eh woods unless we cant get em out or there to big to pull. that was i was saying tho ctl in the woods should only be done with a fowarder not a skidder like some ppl try to do.
if you figure on cuttin 15 triaxle load a week around here and you have to saw em apart inteh woods and skid em w a skidder you kiddin yourself.
all the loggers around here pull the whole tree only way you can make any money around here. the guy i used to work for wnated me to  measue out y tree and cut the crotch out of em in the woods makin 3 peices instead of 1 which ties up more chains so you get less done all to leave a 3 ft block of wood in the woods. that didnt fly w me