Geothermal now in operation(update)

[scsmith42]

Where is the 30% rebate coming from?  I think it is passing the buck once more, if you are going to use this system pull it out of your own pocket.

Tim 

I do not find it to be a case of passing the buck.

Keep in mind that the tax code is one of the primary ways that the Feds manage the economy.   A few years ago accelerated depreciation was offered for folks buying trucks and SUV's for business use.  The larger the vehicle, the more folks are employeed across the entire manufacturing chain.  It worked, too, until the spike in fuel prices caused a massive shift in buying habits.

Massive reductions in energy consumption will reduce the costs associated with infrastructure upgrades, at a time when federal clean air rules are already driving a lot of utility expenses.  By incenting people to invest in energy saving technology, not only are the Feds influencing near term investments in what is largely a US manufactured product, they are also encouraging longer term energy savings, which in turn will result in more discretionary spending as energy prices rise - ie less future economic impact.

And it works too.  I know quite a few people who have invested in improving their home's energy efficiency during the last year's recession, solely because of the significant tax incentive.  This has helped to keep local people busy selling and servicing, and a lot of US firms busy manufacturing.

[moonhill]

I understand the practical side of the incentive/rebate.  It is more of a wishful thinking on my side, wishing we didn't need financial attachments to make the right decision.  There is something wrong with a society when it's needs are motivated by cash on the end of a stick. 

Why can't we bite the bullet and make the right decision, the ones for the long term, with out the Feds getting involved?   

Point in case, Scott.  The Fed promoted the purchase of trucks and SUV's, were they thinking of the future when fuel prices would go up?  No, they just went on and incentivised a plan to have the workers purchase an item to solve a present problem, they needed to sell some trucks, someone did benefit.  Who was it?.   So the business person was left holding the bag and paying the bill, the fuel price.  Pass the buck.   

Tim

[scsmith42]

I understand the practical side of the incentive/rebate.  It is more of a wishful thinking on my side, wishing we didn't need financial attachments to make the right decision.  There is something wrong with a society when it's needs are motivated by cash on the end of a stick. 

Why can't we bite the bullet and make the right decision, the ones for the long term, with out the Feds getting involved?   

Point in case, Scott.  The Fed promoted the purchase of trucks and SUV's, were they thinking of the future when fuel prices would go up?  No, they just went on and incentivised a plan to have the workers purchase an item to solve a present problem, they needed to sell some trucks, someone did benefit.  Who was it?.   So the business person was left holding the bag and paying the bill, the fuel price.  Pass the buck.   

Tim

Tim - good points all.  Seems that for ever action there is some type of reaction...

[Traditional Toolworks]

I understand the practical side of the incentive/rebate.  It is more of a wishful thinking on my side, wishing we didn't need financial attachments to make the right decision.  There is something wrong with a society when it's needs are motivated by cash on the end of a stick. 

Why can't we bite the bullet and make the right decision, the ones for the long term, with out the Feds getting involved?

Can't the same be said for the rebates you got on solar? Why is that different?

[moonhill]

It is not different, you have caught me with my tongue in the vice.   But I have done a good job up till now.  This was the third up grade to my system, as the need/wants of the family grow so does the demand.  We even had an professional work on the system, he tidied it up nice and neat.  He was the influential factor in the matter.  I am not much different than most folks when and incentive is dangled in front of them.  A difference could be in the way a decision is made, are you choosing to go with an alternative because of the incentive?  Probably not.  I was not, I was making the addition no matter what. 

I think it is a form of marketing, these rebates.  Marketing is a tricky business.  Trying to push something on someone they may not really need.  If these systems were all they are cracked up to be would they need to be incentivsed?  I can speak from personal experience on the solar and wind industry.  It is big money for a system of any substantial size, and it still needs to be kept up.  It is not free energy, by any means.  And I don't think Geothermal is all it is cracked up to be either, try running it off a solar system, without the grid you are stuck.  I am two miles form the grid and I am still hooked to it via a propane truck.  To be clear when I say grid I mean the energy system, primarily fossil fuel.  I believe we are running on a false system and within a few years or less it will become more apparent as energy rises.

Where did the idea of a rebate come from, I bet some psychologist made it up or at least one was consulted. 

How about these outdoor wood boilers, do they use electricity and how much?  It is hard to beat a nice wood stove in the house.  Now I am going to rag on the owb's, I have come close to getting one but haven't made the leap, I am under the impression it will require more electricity via circulator pumps, smaller in comparison to the geo pump requirements though?

Tim   

[scsmith42]

It is not different, you have caught me with my tongue in the vice.     

    

[Traditional Toolworks]

It is not different, you have caught me with my tongue in the vice.

At least 'ya got enough testosterone to admit it, and nothing wrong with getting one either, I think me, you, and most others are looking for better ways to provide not just heat, but electrical, and other utilities as well.

I think it is a form of marketing, these rebates.

I always get the impression that the marketing is for done by the folks who have the most to gain, and fossil fuels are what the bulk of America are dependent on. I would like to ease that burden, but don't want to just jump off the grid right now. In fact, I don't plan to do anything yet about where I live in the city, all of my water, gas, and electricity are purchased from the grid.

For me it is that I am trying to devise what I think is the best system possible. Although I don't think there is any perfect system, geothermal looks really good to me, and I have read really good success from people with closed loop systems where their utilities are down to under $100/mo. by using geothermal. I was a victim of Enron, maybe that makes me want to get away from being dependent. I have been planning to use it, and knowing I would spend more, in hopes that it would ease my burden. It is my next house that I will most likely retire to, but that isn't cast in stone yet.

If these systems were all they are cracked up to be would they need to be incentivsed?

Not sure that is true, just that some of these technologies are new, and geothermal is one. Even given total cost, and I know it cost more...but it saves more also.

Where did the idea of a rebate come from, I bet some psychologist made it up or at least one was consulted.

I think both solar and geothermal are good. Just that the gains for the outlay don't seem as good with Solar. I might be wrong, but geothermal seems to have better returns than solar. 

How about these outdoor wood boilers, do they use electricity and how much? 

Not as far as I know. They do heat water also...but it still requires a lot of wood to keep them going...or pellets...wood is pretty messy also, and some folks don't care for it because of that. I am not using it now, but have used it in the past and it is not without fault. I do want it for a 2nd resource, as it can be renewed easily by cutting firewood.:-)

I am under the impression it will require more electricity via circulator pumps, smaller in comparison to the geo pump requirements though?

That is only for water, AFAIK, but that does require additional. Geothermal requires it also, somewhere to keep the loop going. In my case I want to pump it from the lake up to the house. I think an open loop into the lake would be ideal. The lake is pretty large, so the temp of the water shouldn't vary much at all. It will be cooler always in the summer, and hotter in the winter, because of that.

I have heard the batteries are expensive to replace with solar, and that they need replacement. In theory, geo doesn't require that maintenance...maybe Quinton can comment on that?

[Qweaver]

Our reasons for selecting geothermal were not mainly the rebate but instead our age.  We had a wood stove for a while and really liked that type of heat but it really becomes a hassle and would have become worse as we got older.  So we went to a pellet stove.  Usually just one bag a day and a quick cleanup every 3 or 4 days and we still have the ambience of a wood fire.  But another factor is that we want to be able to leave the house for extended periods during the winter and needed a system that we could rely on to keep the house above freezing. 
This broken hip has shown the benefit that the geo gives me.  I am burning the pellet stove just because I want to and have 3 tons of pellets setting in the shed and I have cousins that come in each day to load pellets for me.  But for several days I just let the geo do the heating and it was flawless.  As we get older the convenience will be a bigger factor.
Did the rebate help me decide? Sure.  It also helped me decide to buy a newer more efficient pellet stove.  I think the rebate program is a good idea.  If  we can lower energy use because of the rebate program...it makes sense to me.

Quinton

[Qweaver]

We have found the Geo to do everything that we expected.  There was one early glitch that was purely the fault of the HVAC installers not understanding how the system should work.  They installed a Honeywell thermostat that was bringing on the electric heat when the system went into the morning heating setting or any time the temp was increased over 2 degrees.  It took several arguments with the dealer and finally a call to the manufacturer to convince them that they(the installer) should have used the thermostat that the manufacturer designed to be used for this unit.  The Tech at Climate Master said that this was a common problem and had no idea why the installers would not order the correct thermostat when they ordered the unit.  They ordered and installed the new thermostat and the problem was solved.
Sad thing is that the average user would not have known that the system was not working at any where near top efficiency.  And the installer proved his lack of knowledge by insisting that the system was working correctly when a talk with the factory proved it was not.  I talked to several different dealers before choosing this one and he did do a good job on the install but he should know more about the operation of the system.
But we are really happy with it now.
Quinton

[doctorb]

Quinton-

I use an outdoor boiler for heat, and AC units for AC in the summer.  I just digested this geothermal thread and found it interesting.

Prior to purchasing my wood boiler, I investigated Geo.  Even got 2 estimates.

My house is heated with hot water baseboard.  Can't use geo for that.  I would have to use the existing AC ducts for forced hot air heat.  The warm air would be delivered at ceiling level in my upstairs because the AC was retrofit through the attic.  Because of the strange setup of my house, I would need three, yes three, units for geo: one in each of my 2 basements and one in the attic.  I would need two different well systems to supply these units.  The cost was astronomical.  Both estimates between 55 - 60K!

I can buy a lot of wood for 60K.  While my electric bill is up in the summer, I am hoping to add some solar cells to mitigate that cost.  I really like hot water baseboard / radiator heat over FHA.  All things considered, I tried to go geothermal, but couldn't due to the price.  I think geo may be great for new construction, but dependent upon the existing house, it may be less attractive for homes built with radiant or hot water baseboard heat.

Doctorb

[Kansas]

I put in a geothermal system in the new house when it was built last summer. I used the pond I put out front of the house and put the coils in there, covered in gravel so they couldn't get snagged by someone fishing. It took awhile to get the bugs worked out. Because the pond had just filled with very cold water, they thought that was the problem. Finally getting someone else in fixed it in 10 minutes. Its a 4 ton unit. The air conditioning is wonderful. The heating is fine, until you get about a 50 degree differential between the outside air and the thermostat. Then the electric kicks on. I love this log home, but I don't think the R value is enough for a 4 ton unit. I plan on using the fireplace more this next winter.

[Randy88]

Not to offer any criticism but when I checked into it I got a lot of different answers and not many were good, the people I know who had geo complained about the electric bills and a friend of mine is an electrician and he told me not to do it period, he went on to explain the higher pressure systems were a repairmans dream come true, he's made a good living going around and repairing them once they are off warrenty.   His explaination was as follows and I was wondering if anyone else had simular problems.   He told me for cooling they are great and efficient, but the heating is a different story, the switching from heating to cooling in a short period of time takes its toll on the switches and pumps to go from heating to cooling in say a day, in the night it heats and works one way and during the day the outside air warms up to the point its too hot inside and then switches to cooling and back again in the evening again to heating.   He told me the cost to keep all the switches going was high priced and always a constant deal, and the cost for electricity for some of the houses we looked at that had them were off the chart as well, I asked him and his explanation was the cost to heat up the water above 50 degrees and what the heat is captured off the compressors isn't enough to get the water up to and maintain say 72 degrees and when it switches back to cooling, the water has to be cooled again to 50 degrees as it is coming out of the ground and its not efficient enough system and consumes a lot of electricity to achieve this.   He claimed in other areas where you didn't have the temp swings in the spring and fall the systems would work better.   

Now several of my relatives have geo in their homes and I've gotten out of them what their electric bill is and I almost fell over, one is at even pay of 350 per month and the other is 270 even pay.   I know of a house thats over 500 even pay but its also a monster of a new home but still, isn't that a bit high.   The guys I've talked to did figure in the repairs and maintance and one told me he wishes he'd never seen the geo at all due to the upkeep and maintance thing.   Now I'm not condembing the systems but has anyone else had problems or know of someone who did or have a high electirc bill, way more than they were told they should expect to have?    I looked into it myself but after talking to enough that have the systems I backed off and said I'd just wait and see first.   

Now I thought maybe someone was installing them wrong or something like that but I found out there was three differnet companies units and three different installers that I talked to the home owners of.   I've talked to over two dozen owners who were not happy and was wondering if its a phase as far as geo or is it here to stay.   My friend the electrician told me to do the cooling only version and forget the heat and cool version but he's the only one to give that recommendation at all.   I think we also have a higher rate per kilowatt cost as well if thats all your electric bill is for the kilowatts used but maybe I'm wrong.   I don't want to get into an arguement here I'm not for or against anything but I'm looking for information on these systems and others experiences both good and bad. 

[doctorb]

Randy-
I too am interested in the real experience with geothermal.  You are correct, the AC / cooling is more efficient than heating.  There is no question that the initial outlay of $ is large.  If the real electric costs are anything like what you've reported, then this is a scam in the making.  I know others who have geo, and either they aren't telling if their electric bills are huge, or I never asked.  I do not think that it's as bad as you've been told.

Like many things, I think that all geo units are not alike, and th efficiency, while advertised as very high, is variable.  Hope you get some responses to your querie.

doctorb

[Randy88]

My friend the electrician told me that there are two basic types, high pressure and low pressure the low pressure is only cooling and the high pressure is both, I like simpicity and thats as basic as I got for an explanation, the high pressure systems basically reverse directions for heating and cooling, they run one way to capture the heat off the compressor and use it in the house and reverse directions to put the excess heat into the ground off the compressor for cooling.    Now if this isn't right I'd like someone to explain it differently in simple english and correct me as to what I've been told.   My friend expained the compressors were not built heavy enough to take the long term use and the efficiency isn't there to heat the water the rest of the way up to say 72 degrees by using electricity, I"ve not seen or talked to anyone who uses gas to heat the water the rest of the way up and if there is some company doing it I haven't seen them either.   His basic complaint was the switching and controls to do the switching, because they are a more patented or supply controlled, I'm searching for a simple word to describe this, anyhow they are high priced and short lived deal, he's got a lot of houses where he's put in several of the switches and pumps and his thought was once they get about so old they never seem to work right.    He has figured out there were a lot of systems put in wrong as far as the electrical end was concerned and talked to the company reps and got them straightened out but as he put it its not a simple system in the least and to trouble shoot them is a nightmare with their control panels and switches.   

He also went on to tell about the first ones out on the market that were basically experimental units, he gave me several names of people who have just abandoned them and put in regular furnaces again due to the upkeep costs and high electric bills.   We discussed brands and installers and who to try and who to avoid as far as the amount of units they have installed and of those how many has he had to go in and make work due to poor installation and I eliminated one brand and installer right off the get go, I think it was the installer more than the unit from what I gathered.    He also went onto explain a lot of the electrical usage came from the higher pressure pumps that are used to generate the heat, he claimed they were not built heavy enough to take long term use and abuse of constant switching directions, and the size needed to make the systems work were larger electrical hogs coupled with the electricity used to heat the water up to 70 some degrees wasn't efficient enough system, thats also what the people I talked to complained about the most, was the efficiency wasn't there.   

Now a lot of these systems went into existing homes and when you stood back and looked I'm thinking maybe they weren't insulated enough and the windows were too old and in need of repalcement but theres a church in town that has went with geo and its also the church my electrician friend goes to and he told me its not advertised but the electrical bill is on even pay and its over a grand a month and the church council is very upset for what they spent and what they were told to expect for an electrical bill and he's gone into try and troubleshoot it and he claims its installed and hooked up correctly but the size and capacity it is for the building, its just not feasable to have done and will never be efficient.   

We have talked the difference in cost of operting and upkeeping a regular funace and the geo ones and it basically came down to, do you want to buy gas or electricity but it was a toss up, not a major money saver when all the costs were factored in.    Almost all the ones I've talked to complained about the electrical bill and its not what they were told to expect at all, its way higher, I tried to compare between new house construction, old house construction, new installation at the time of construction, installation after a few years, by brands, by installer, by electrical company, by area say in a city or a rural setting and it just got so confusing I basically gave up and went with an out door wood boiler and cut and split firewood and said we'll wait for new updated models and see then.    I'm a big believer in research and the new technology and efficiency and saving money but also simplicity, now is this just in my area or is this different areas as well so maybe thats why I'm posting these questions, maybe its just my area and thats not the best place for geo, so as they say my research continues. 

[Qweaver]

Well Randy, everyone that I talked to before I decided on geo told the exact opposite.  We have only had this unit for last winter and this summer and it has exceeded my expectations on both performance and power use.  My system is made by Climate Master and is one of the highest ranked.    It's true that the cooling side supplies more BTUs than the heating but it is a fairly small difference and I sized my system to meet the heating demands.   
My system installed, including the cost of drilling the wells, was $17,000.  With the 30% government rebate,  it cost $11,900.  There was a lot of ductwork cost in this price and I doubt that I could have got a regular all electric heating and cooling system put in for much less.  I don't have easy access to gas and using electric strips for heat is costly. Seemed like the smart move to me.   

If I have a lot of problems with the systems maybe I'll change my mind...but again, other Climate Master owners that I talked to said it had not been a problem.   Also, all of the houses around me are on free or reduced cost gas and they were often out of gas last winter and my system never shut down.  I also have an 11,000 w generator that will keep my pellet stove and HVAC unit running even if I lose electric.

[scsmith42]

Quinton, how much has your electric bill been running?

[Qweaver]

Hey Scott,
Our average monthly electric bill is $100 or less.  It was only $50 a couple of months during the winter.
It's hard to put a number on what it is costing to run the Geo system because of all the other things that we are running.  The house is all electric and our main workshed with welders and large air compressor is on the same meter.  Plus my cousin has 2 large commercial coolers and a freezer in our workshed which use a lot of power.  Sarah runs the water heater completely empty when she uses the Jacuzzi tub and that's a couple times a week.  I know that everone thinks that gas is cheaper but I know people that have $200 to $300 gas bills during the winter in 1500 to 2000 SgFt homes. 

[Randy88]

Any idea of the kilowatts your using a month, I've never had that low of bill ever in my life and thats before we had central air and even if nobodys home, your cost per kilowatt has to be a lot cheaper than I have, or is that what you figured for the cost of the heating and cooling only?

[Qweaver]

Randy,  we have an 1100 SqFt house in Texas that has $200 to $300 monthly electric bill in the summer and around $150 in the winter.  That's for a total electric house.  That's with a two year old 17 seer AC unit.  Here in WV the cabin is less than 1000 SqFt and very well insulated.  We do use good energy management practices.  Many people don't and their utility bills will show that.  We just got rid of the coolers and freezer, so our next months bill should give us a really good idea.  The highest electric bill that we have ever had in the cabin was $120 and we were running the planner, spindle molder and other large machines almost every day during that month.  You almost sound like you don't believe what I am saying!  Again I say that I talked to several Geo owners before I decided to install mine and everyone of them were happy with their system.  I think that the early systems had some issues that have now been solved.  I'll dig out our past bills today just to compare.

OK!  Well I just checked last winters and this summers bills and I'm wrong.  The highest bill was actually $166.31.  BUT the previous months bill was an estimate of $44.29 and the large bill just made up the difference.   And the month that I was running all of the machinery was actually $159.52.  All of the other months were slightly above or below $100.

My KWH charge is $.083 to $.09  

[WH_Conley]

I have some neighbors that have geo, their electric bill is always lower than mine, bigger houses. Newer and better insulated I am sure.