Geothermal now in operation(update)

[Qweaver]

I'm starting this thread just to give some info about how well (or badly) our new Geothermal heat pump is working.   It's a two ton system using two 180' wells.  The total installed cost was $17,000 which included the wells.  We will get a 30% tax rebate which brings the price to $11,900.  A regular Heat pump system would have cost nearly $9000 and with the HVAC costs that I'm hearing other Geo owners say they get, the payback could be just 2 to 3 years.
So far the system has worked perfectly.  We are using a programmable thermostat that allows you to just forget about heating and cooling.  We do like lighting the pellet stove during the day for no other reason than...we just like the ambiance.  I swear it's a more comfortable feeling heat.  Have you ever tried backing your butt up to a heating duct outlet? It just ain't the same as backing up to a stove.  It looks like the pellet stove will actually be quite a bit more expensive to run than the geo...but I already have the pellets and WE LIKE IT.  This may make the actual geo costs hard to accurately determine.
I did not have the water heater loop plumbed in because I am going to add another tank to the system to make it work the best.  I should get nearly "free" hot water if I do it right.  Regular electric water heating is a big part of the electric bill.
I'd like to hear other opinions and especially from current geo owners.
Quinton

[iffy]

You are on the right track going with the second tank for preheat. The super deheater on our furnace will put out a max of 120 deg water. If you run it thru one tank only, and if the element in the tank is set to 120 or warmer, you will never extract any heat from the furnace. It has a temperature sensor that doesn't circulate any water thru the super deheat circuit if it is already 120 or higher. By using a separate tank, the only heat in the tank comes from the furnace. During periods when the hvac is running frequently, the preheat tank pretty much stays at maximum heat. So, if your water heater is set to 130 for instance, you are only raising the temperature of the incoming water by 10 degrees. Of course during the weeks or months you are not heating or cooling, you get no preheat either. So far ours is working great.

[flapjack23]

A little info to qualify these comments. Built a new house and moved in in 10-07. Used 2X6 walls and wet cellulose for R-25? walls and R-60+ attic. 2600 sq.ft. 2 story house. I put in a Econar Geo. with in-ground loop of app. 6000 ft. of pipe. Installed 2-50 gallon Marathon water heaters, plumbed in series. 1st has Geo desuperheater, furnace and 2 WH hooked to same elec. panel with cheaper rate than regular residential elec. We keep the house at 68 in the winter 24-7, summer 72 during day and 70 at night. Moderate temps we open the windows and turn the Geo. off. In middle of snowshow season we usually get 2 weeks at -15 or so, but more moderate usually. Highs in summer usually a couple weeks in the 90's few days 100+. I've decided to collect data on a spreadsheet to ensure my H&C and hot H2O costs are reasonable. I have the 1st water heater off at breaker, its just pre-heating the water when the Geo. is on. 3 girls and the wife, I might need to turn it on when they get a little older.


My average monthly for heat/air and hot water is $78.78. Highest heat bill was middle of snowshow season 09-$161.57. I'm comfortable and my annual cost is $984.76. I figure cost of heat is about $487.57/year (08-09 numbers). The only issue I have is instead of being a slave to the propane or fuel oil man, I'm a slave to the elec. company. I would whole heartily recommend Geo. to anyone.

My future plans include an OWB to heat my future barn and garage (I have a propane heater in the garage now). I'd plumb the OWB to heat the garage (useing the garage thermostat) and split the feed to apply heat to the house (with no control, just passive with fan always on).

The cost of the Geo. added about $8,000+/- to the cost over a propane system, I think my payback will only be 2-3 years. Some of that comes with super insulating the house though (+$3500?).

Andy

[Traditional Toolworks]

We will get a 30% tax rebate which brings the price to $11,900. 

Quinton,

I just replied in the other thread like a dolt, but have a couple Qs. Is that 30% from Fed or State?

We used to have a couple geothermal tax rebates in Cali, but for some reason they don't seem to have any. I have heard there are some Fed rebates that could still apply. So, curious where the rebate is coming from.

I have used this site to get some rebate info.

http://www.dsireusa.org/

A regular Heat pump system would have cost nearly $9000 and with the HVAC costs that I'm hearing other Geo owners say they get, the payback could be just 2 to 3 years.

That is impressive if so...

Which brand pump did you end up with?

I think it makes sense to have a 2nd source of heat, and your pellet stove sounds like a good match. I'm thinking of using a wood stove only because I don't have a pellet stove and I can cut fuel! :-)

[Traditional Toolworks]

My average monthly for heat/air and hot water is $78.78. Highest heat bill was middle of snowshow season 09-$161.57. I'm comfortable and my annual cost is $984.76. I figure cost of heat is about $487.57/year (08-09 numbers). The only issue I have is instead of being a slave to the propane or fuel oil man, I'm a slave to the elec. company. I would whole heartily recommend Geo. to anyone.

Andy,

Yes, these numbers are more of what I have heard from folks. In Quinton's other geo thread, I replied to Norm who said his was more along the line of $2400/year...I think I pay that for electrical now.

Your number is more of what I have heard. My home will only be about 2000 sq.ft.

[moonhill]

The numbers for the electricity used to make geothermal work have me wondering if its justified?  What will happen with the electric bill when the price of electricity goes up?  Well that is a silly question.  Where is the electricity coming from to power these units?  Coal, hydro?  If it cost just as much to run the geo unit, isn't it just passing the buck somewhere else with a far more expensive unit?

Why stop at a R-25 wall?  Bump it up to R-60 and R-100 ceiling, then apply one of these units.   

Here is an example of a heat pump that doesn't come with the hassel of thousands of feet of pipe in the ground.  It still uses electricity, though.  How do the two systems compare?

http://www.gotohallowell.com/acadia.aspx

Tim

[Qweaver]

Hi TT,
the rebate is on federal taxes.  I have not checked with the state or electric company...but I will.

Tim, I checked on the Acadia and it sounded good but no one could explain to me how the system managed to make heat with a heat pump at low outside air temps.  They said it was equal to a geo system but could not tell me why or how.  It was not Energy star rated and did not qualify for the 30% tax rebate and that gave me pause.  So I decided to go with the geo.

My system is the Climate Master Tranquility and seems to be working great so far.  When I get back on my feet I will check out the install better.
Quinton

[Traditional Toolworks]

Why stop at a R-25 wall?  Bump it up to R-60 and R-100 ceiling, then apply one of these units.   

Because it doesn't matter??? There is more loss at the windows and doors, and other seams that you reach a point that there is no gain, and it's way before you get to R-60.

Quinton,

That is good to hear that the 30% is coming from the Feds, I will look into that. Do you have any links where info might exist for the feds? I'll check the DSIRE site I linked to above, but it is mostly State, I *think*.

I'm going to get my logs, they just arrived into Cali from Jane Lew today...(they just snuck out before the snow storm last thurs.:-)

[ronwood]

My question is how many of the companies selling geothermal and high efficiency OWB are raising their prices due to the tax rebates. My guess the one that benefits the least is the end consumer. I  priced the Eclassic before the rebates were started and now and the price differential of the Eclassic verses standard OWB of CB had widen considerably. Maybe it was just the distributor that I was talking to.

[moonhill]

I am sure it is possible to build a tight house where higher R-values will be beneficial.  Limit the windows or design for the appropriate climate using the proper window or even a secondary sunny room on the outer walls as a buffer.  Our houses are not built properly for heating or cooling.  We run around thinking of a nifty heating system and apply it to an out of date designed system.  I see plenty of room for improvement. 

Maybe we all should live in wall tents.

Tim

[Traditional Toolworks]

The numbers for the electricity used to make geothermal work have me wondering if its justified?  What will happen with the electric bill when the price of electricity goes up?  Well that is a silly question.  Where is the electricity coming from to power these units?  Coal, hydro?  If it cost just as much to run the geo unit, isn't it just passing the buck somewhere else with a far more expensive unit?

I forgot to comment on this before, but the more electricity goes up, the more you will save with geothermal. The reason is simple, you use much less electricity by using geothermal, therefore you will save even more. Yes, your electrical will cost that much more if electrical goes up, but if you didn't have geothermal think about how much more it would go up on you!

I am sure it is possible to build a tight house where higher R-values will be beneficial.  Limit the windows or design for the appropriate climate using the proper window or even a secondary sunny room on the outer walls as a buffer.

I'm sure it would be possible, and then again, if you make a perfectly sealed home, you probably won't be able to live inside of it without pumping air into it...we do need that to breath, heh? There is just no way that you could prevent air from being transferred into your home. Someone opens a door, or a window, and it's all over. OTOH, I don't think we want that either, it's probably unhealthy to have a home that air can't be transferred to.

Our houses are not built properly for heating or cooling.  We run around thinking of a nifty heating system and apply it to an out of date designed system.  I see plenty of room for improvement.

Sure, but that is exactly how I see geothermal, and while you can call it a nifty heating system, that really doesn't describe it.

Maybe we all should live in wall tents.

No thanks, I'll stick with trees.   

[moonhill]

As for tight houses, aren't you all using HVAC units as well, don't they exchange the air properly and efficiently? 

It is zero° outside this morning.  If I open the door and go out to get a load of wood and come back in, all is not lost, I truly don't see a noticeable drop in my indoor temp, or one worth noticing. 

I know a fellow who lives in a yurt.  The walls are almost not insulated and his single pane windows are loose in their frames, the glass will rattle.  He uses no electricity and he runs for his water.  He once brought up the point of insulation, he uses it, but sparingly, more blankets at night, felt wool booties while in the house, and I am sure he has an extra wool sweater on this morning with a nifty wood fire going in the wood cook stove.  Just wanted to point out that I have a respect for his way of living and mine as well as all others, everyone has their own needs/wants.  Geothermal would not work in his case nor mine.  But am glad to see others out leading the front in this technology. 

Where is the 30% rebate coming from?  I think it is passing the buck once more, if you are going to use this system pull it out of your own pocket.

Tim 

 

[Traditional Toolworks]

As for tight houses, aren't you all using HVAC units as well, don't they exchange the air properly and efficiently? 

I don't have HVAC, do I need it? I will add it when I use geothermal in the log home though.:-)

It is zero° outside this morning.

Whoa, that sucks...you could use some geo the most. Go 10' down and that ground certainly is not zero degrees.

He once brought up the point of insulation, he uses it, but sparingly, more blankets at night, felt wool booties while in the house, and I am sure he has an extra wool sweater on this morning with a nifty wood fire going in the wood cook stove.

Pure brilliance! Why ever create a warm home when you can just bundle up...?

Where is the 30% rebate coming from?  I think it is passing the buck once more, if you are going to use this system pull it out of your own pocket.

You seem a bit bitter that folks are using and/or getting a rebate on their taxes. My part of the country we call that jealousy...

[moonhill]

No need of the HVAC in a log home, they breath well. 

10', nope, I sit on a lot of ledge, it pokes out of the land all around me, too bad I didn't have a nice deep pond near by, that I may be jealous of. 

It is his personal choice to live in such an manner, it is a choice of efficiency.  He has just chosen a shorter way to the end, others choose to go the long way around.   

I may be bitter more likely it is part of my avatar, but I am just pointing out that I see and hear a lot of folks complaining about the welfare state, aren't rebates a form of welfare for the middle class?  Cash for Clunkers is another grand example.   At risk of having this sent to the junk yard(restricted area) I believe the Country has over spent itself and a holt on all excessive spending should be enacted, from one end of the spectrum to the other, from the poor to the wealthy, and the government should be sent home for an extended period of time, to sit on their hands.

That doesn't mean you should not use Geothermal as a heat source.   

It will be interesting to see what happens to California in the near future, budget wise, I am not jealous. 

Tim   

[Traditional Toolworks]

Tim,

Let's not let this get political, period, take your Cali/Maine 'thang to the junk yard, wherever that is...:-)

Geothermal appears to be about the best use of resource in regards to providing, or being able to pull and use the resources.

I think I have a valuable resource with a lake being close to me, especially, and I own Riparian Rights to the use. That is a huge resource!

But it doesn't completely remove the dependency on electricity, and I'm ok with that. There is nothing wrong with hybrid technology where it makes sense, and geothermal seems to for me.

Sure, log homes breath well, but why wouldn't I want to exchange some of the "hot" summer air, for cooler processed air done with geo? The AC which geo provides is not as cool as typical forced air units, and as such most I've heard get the home to about 78-80 degrees. Still, that's better than 110, which it does occasionally get in Cali. And it makes sense if I can leverage a large body of water to pull a cool resource into my home...

And, FWIW, I will use a wood stove of some type as an additional source of heat. Quinton is doing similar, using pellet.

All that said, I'm just building my house now...I haven't gotten any rebate, nor do I have the house built. Geothermal looks good to me though...yes, even though I didn't expect to get a rebate I have been planning to use it and spend the extra cash up front. Quinton's numbers are good for me in that sense, a bit higher than I expected, but real world. I was expecting more like $12k, but still $17k is not bad.

[moonhill]

Hey, I can get carried away at times.  I admit it.  The Junk Yard is my own term for a certain area here on the forum, which time will reveal.   

And... don't tell anyone, I just added to my solar system by a substantial amount of cash, it comes with a rebate incentive.  The 3rd expansion in 18 years, the first time we have uses such incentives.  My wife knows the details, I am just the grunt, I think it is tax related, we don't really get cash back. 

I have been out in my unheated shop/mill building, the temp did not get out of the single numbers today with a nice wind.  I realized I am using no insulation in the shop, I had double felt lined boots, long johns, two pare of pants the outer ones wool, three shirts, hooded sweatshirt, and down jacket, and lousy gloves, as insulation.  I still worked enough to sweat a little, using traditional hand tools, BTW.  I was the heat source, and a little passive solar.

Tim

[jmsiowa]

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/Green-Energy-Breakthroughs.aspx?page=6

latest issue of "MotherEarthNews had a short story on the new heat pumps for air source.

[flapjack23]

The numbers for the electricity used to make geothermal work have me wondering if its justified?  What will happen with the electric bill when the price of electricity goes up?

08-09 KWH breakdown by month:
Sept 08     551
Oct 08       858
Nov 08      1395
Dec 08      2069
Jan 09       2471
middle of snowshow season 09       2069
mar 09      1374
April 09      1034
May 09       623

I agree 100% when the elec rates skyrocket I'll be complaining. I have 2 elec meters, so these are accurate for Geo and water heaters only.

As for tight houses, aren't you all using HVAC units as well, don't they exchange the air properly and efficiently?

I built my house as tight as possible. Spray foam in all gaps, doors, and windows. Didn't do a blower door test, but I'm sure my air exchange would be extremely poor if I had not addressed it during construction. I had a HRV installed, set to run on its lowest speed 24/7. Coupled with the Geo. fan on low setting 24/7 I have adequate air exchange. Drys the house out when its sub 0 though. Have to have a humidifier in the winter. I could have made the window plan a lot more energy efficient, but we gave up a little to have lot of windows.

I've already thought up my next scheme to help with heating $ if (or when) elec goes up. I plan to build a barn. Add an OWB for primary heat in the barn, add a run to heat my garage, tee off the garage run to help in the house (typical in-furnace setup minus thermostat). When the garage calls for heat, the house will receive 50% of the garage heat, and with the furnace fan set to on, supplement the house heat.

Andy

PS The unit I had installed is an Econar Vara 2 Plus. It can be seen at www.econar.com. I'm pretty sure its a 6 ton system.

[Traditional Toolworks]

And... don't tell anyone, I just added to my solar system by a substantial amount of cash, it comes with a rebate incentive.  The 3rd expansion in 18 years, the first time we have uses such incentives.  My wife knows the details, I am just the grunt, I think it is tax related, we don't really get cash back. 

Tim,

And that's the thing...there are solar rebates in California, and many folks are taking advantage of it. I have been planning to use geothermal even though I didn't expect a tax rebate, just that I feel it is better technology, and saves more in the end.

A rebate is only a piece of what you spend, so it's not as if it's for free. However the 30% is a substantial amount, IMO.

To me the geothermal is safe, clean, and proven.

[moonhill]

It was in the last lines of the Mother Earth article which reminded me of an issue I have with the air based heat pumps, it is forced hot air, no hot water.  One of the contributing parts to a geo system, I like, is it meshes well with radiant heat.   Meaning multiple choices for back up or other choices if electrical needs should be come an issue.   

Tim