Your mills origin, the beginnings

[D Hagens]

Hi guys, I have a few questions for you all.
 I’ve been looking at mills for a few years now, tried a few, almost bought one but yet I’m still looking.
 I’ve received information and videos on many a mill and I’m very impressed with the many different features on each and every mill.
 I’ve had phone calls and e-mail from a lot of manufactures and I’ve been impressed with each and everyone of them.
 I’m a photographer part time and I’m going to assume that mills are like cameras, we all have our favourites’ so I’m not going to ask anyone that question as it could turn ugly!
 The questions will be like this: When and where did your mill manufacture start and in what year? I see through the brochures all the great things but I can never see the actual start day and info like that. Like the real start up stuff, things that they don’t advertise but yet a true mill owner would know.
 The other thing is have you and people you know in the past been 100% happy with the customer service? This can be a simple yes or no answer as I’m sure along the way there’s been a few boo-boo’s along the way on both sides.
 So here’s a topic where the blue, orange, yellow, green. Red….am I missing a color…….mill owners can share some knowledge
 Thanks!
 

[backwoods sawyer]

I bought a mill from a well-established builder, they had been around since the mid 80’s, however, the mill that I bought was the very first one of its kind, a proto type, and was build in December 2001. Being a proto type, I have had a few customer service issues that other mill owners from the same manufacture have not had.

[DanG]

My mill was built by a company that began building sawmills in the mid to late 1950s.  They are generally considered to be the pioneer in portable, one-man sawmills.  Their machines progressed in sophistication in the manner you might expect until the mid 1980s, when my mill was built.  Since then there has been little advancement in their design, save a few minor innovations.  Basically, their new mills look identical to my 1986 model, though they seem to sell all the mills they can produce.

I have been very happy with the services they have provided, though some people have had some difficulties in that regard.  There seems to be some scuttlebutt along the owner grapevine that the health of the company hinges on the health of the company's owner, which hasn't been that good lately.  It is cause for concern for some of us, as there are a lot of proprietary parts that can only be obtained from there. 

Overall, I'm very happy with my choice of mills.

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

One of my mills is built by a company thats been running since 1902 when they started building flour mills then moved into the production of sawmills about 2to4 years later they still build the same models today as when they started along with a larger model and whole range of sawmilling equipment    They are a custom builder so you can spec things how you like and its easy to upgrade to hyd/auto from a manual mill 
Reliability they are Bullet Proof ! Simple and Rugged as they can airfreight parts half way around the world in a couple of days usually so downtime isnt realy an issue as you always order things before you need them apart from that the only other complaint ive heard in my life is that you break the odd hyd hose which we all know is only a trip to the local hyd shop  as my familys installed an ran them since the early 70s to 2001 firstly in PNG and my grandfather had the dealership for the pacific area and imported the first mill into aust in March 1984 which is the mill im rebuilding at the moment which ill never sell 

My other mill is Australian Made Simple and Rugged once again  They started in 1994 and built their 10000th mill this year    Their Backup support and parts is excellent They export all around the world and build 6 diferent models now   

My other two mills where Father & Son co built in our driveway between 93 and 98 

as for color Two are Red n Black  ones Green & Yellow and the other ones Black Mate   

Regards Chris

[bandmiller2]

Band and swing mills are fairly new on the landscape,probibly in the last 25-30 years.Its hard to pin down exact dates as most started as cottage industries in a guys back yard.Then it was like Dodge City everyone and his brother was building and selling.Things have settled down to several major manuf. and a few ma and pa builders.Circular mills have been around for hundreds of years,probibly a few have had arrow heads stuck in the wood frame.Many here have built their own mills.Most mills are good and most manuf. are very attentive to their mill owners because their still small industries where you can call and talk to the owner

[D Hagens]

backwoods sawyer, DanG, Meadows Miller, bandmiller2 

 Excellent answers! That's exactly what I've been looking for, the meat and potatoes of portable mills and the guys that have been there and seen the history over the years.

  Anyone else have experiences to share?

[Jeff]

Band and swing mills are fairly new on the landscape,probibly in the last 25-30 years.Its hard to pin down exact dates as most started as cottage industries in a guys back yard.Then it was like Dodge City everyone and his brother was building and selling.

This isn't entirely accurate. 

 From one of the books in my collection.

Title: Lumber
Author: Ralph Clement Bryant,Manufacturers' Association Professor of Lumbering.
Yale University

Published by: New York John Wiley & Sons, Inc  1922


Found in Chapter III titled Sawmill Equipment.

located on Page 86 

[D Hagens]

 Hi Jeff, I see you read books too. In Ft. Langley we have this little tiny library where I go to when I want real history about what's gone on in my town and surrounding areas.
 Most of the major mills that were here are now all but shut down but the history is preserved in books and the words of the older guys that used to work in them.
 The big sawmills have been around for years but I wonder who came up with the concept of a one man stationary saw where a guy could be on his own and enjoy his own company and make a living at it?

[bandmiller2]

Its pretty hard to come up with an idea that hasen't been tried many times in the sawmill industry good or bad.When I became interested in milling in the late 70's I'd never heard of a small portable bandmill,or swingmill.If you wanted to mill logs you set up a circular mill.I had heard of the big west coast bandsaws but had never seen one.We're lucky today theirs so much available at every entrance level.Frank C.

[Hilltop366]

OK Jeff..... Who's going to tell that guy to put some guards on that thing!

[woody1]

The old sawyer I purchased my mill from was a farmer. Like alot of farmers in our area, he purchased a circle mill back in the '40s to subsidise his income when farming was slow. He started out with a wood frick. He tells of saw doc's and sawmill suppliers coming to the mill on a regular basis. On one trip they had a special..you could trade up to a steel mill. He took the deal they came in tore out the old frick and replaced it with a new stell American mill. As he got older, the mill wasn't used anymore. It Layed unused in the woods for years. The old mill shed fell in and broke some things. Stuff was stolen.
I heard about the mill, went and talked to him. We made a deal and the rest is history.

[paul case]

my mill is blue like this screen. made by a ma n pa mfger in MO. dont know how long they been in bussiness but i am sure of 5 years. they make only manul mills and sell a wider and longer standard cut than most for a little less $.   
i was not new to sawing when i bught the bandmill. i had worked with a neighbor who had a crossbred mill. part corley and part meadows powered with a 671 detroit,52'' blade. he could really make that old mill sing. i purchased a m-14 belsaw with a metal frame and 26'' blade pto powered. used it for a year. the neighbor passed away and i purchased his mill but had to move it. i never got it set up. i sold both of the circle mills and bought the bandmill about 15 months ago. i have cut about 14000 bd.ft on it and i couldnt be happier. my wife is pleased with the mill as it was first used to cut out our new house and now it is one of my farm ''subsidies''. if i have any kind of trouble the maker is as close as a phone call. i bought A  mill and gained a friend. he even called me a time or 2. i believe my mill was made by folks who use them so they are well thought out and simple to operate. efficient too. i can cut for 8 hours pretty steady and not use 5 gallons of fuel.
maybe the screen wont be blue when this is posted?  replyscreen blue .    thats what color mine is!  pc

[paul case]

my belsaw m-14 had a 40'' blade not a 26''  my bad.  pc

[D Hagens]

 I've never seen a circle mill up close, just in pics. I thought I saw a post the other night where a guy in B.C has one, am I right or way off track on this?

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

Hagen firstly ill say that  i agree with Franks statement that We're lucky today theirs so much available at every entrance level.  and that most mills are good at what they are dsingend to do  I think circs are great allround machines esp in mixed grade and a bit more forgiving on the operation and maint side of things in a production situation for a novice sawyer  and the thing i like with bands is that they are great custom sawing machines and give a more marketable finnish on you timber on higher grades when you have your band maint spoton and like all things its not to hard to learn how to do it  properly 

Jeff I like the look f that band mill ive got a pic of one like that in a book i have had since i was 14yo called Grimshaw on Saws but the heads static and has a flatop carriage it also as a pic of a vert band with a carriage like an american Mate 

Regards Chris

[logwalker]

My mill is orange and they have been making them for a long time. The customer service is excellent and I am a happy man. The mill has close to 6000 hours on it. I will sit down now. 

[fishpharmer]

I should probably avoid this post altogether.............
First of all, I have some serious issues with customer service on my mill...can't seem to get anything repaired by the manufacturer in a timely manner.   My mill is green and yellow (not unlike a JD tractor) in color.  My mill is a band mill with rather large dimensions and a modestly sized 18 hp engine.  It is all manual, except for the 12V sawhead raise and lower mechanism.

The manufacturer began in 2005 without the first bit of sawmill experience.  I would call it a prototype.   The mill has really fulfilled my greatest early expectations.  Now that I have come to learn more about mills (primarily through FF) my level of expectation has risen. 

Back to the mill......the greatest asset of my mill manufacturer most certainly is the outsourced internet accessible  24/7 technical guidance department.  I really cannot say enough good things about that.  

[Meadows Miller]

[quote author=fishpharmer link=topic=40571.msg583775#msg583775

Back to the mill......the greatest asset of my mill manufacturer most certainly is the outsourced internet accessible  24/7 technical guidance department.  I really cannot say enough good things about that.  
[/quote]
James Ill second that one Mate  and another pluss is that you dont feel like your the only bloke in this game as alot of us work on our own  and its nice to talk with other blokes who suffer Timber Addiction   

Regards Chris

[bandmiller2]

DHagens,the one man mill was pretty much started by Belsaw.Belsaw sold a light duty affordable circular mill marketed to farmers,it was the model "T" of sawmills.One man can operate any mill but its always more productive ,and safer to have anouther person especially one who know what he's doing.Frank C.

[jpgreen]

I rescued my mill from a drug infested enviroment ... 

The prior owner somehow lost his way and went from Woodmizer sawyer to Harleys and crank. Had to send my Kawamizer to rehab. He's all better now and sawing happily for over 3 years ...

[Magicman]

My mill happens to be orange.  From day one, I've always felt like the technical support folks genuinely cared about me and my problem or question.  I'm sure that other manufacturers are the same.  Must be the sawdust......

[paul case]

those belsaw circle mills were affordable and did a good job. they became foley-belsaw and then timberking. T K stoped making the one man circle mill in 99 i think. the ones i have seen used the same design old to new. i guess if it works dont mess with it. kinda tells the story that things are going away from the big blade when a company that made circle mills for 40 plus years now makes only bandmills.(someone will probably tell me thats wrong but im used to it . my wife says that so much it dont even hurt anymore. tk told me that they dont mfg these circle mills when it tried to order stuff for the old m-14) pc

[pineywoods]

My mill (orange) was purchased by a friend of mine to saw lumber for his retirement home. When the house was done, the mill didn't go away. Seems we've all heard that story many times. He found himself running a full time sawmill job. I got involved doing offbearing and some maintenance for him. Even added a home-made hydraulic system. At around 4500 hours, he figured the mill was worn out, parked it under a tree and bought a new one. I bought the old wore out mill, brought it home and did some re-building. It just turned 7100 hours and is still going strong. I have never told him it wasn't wore out, just needed a little maintenance. With proper maintenance, I don't think it's possible to wear out them orange mills. I ran across one nearby that has 17,000 hours on the meter and is still running full time 6 days a week.

[Mark K]

I bought my mill which is orange about 13 years ago. We hired a guy in to saw out our new pole shed. To make a long story short we ran it more then he did. He wanted to up grade to a hydraulic so I bought that and the sharpener. No major problems until the other day, we had a build up of carbon in the motor which held the intake valve open. Tore it down and cleaned the carbon out but couldnt find a head gasket anywhere. Our NY dealer came through and got me the gaskets . I put it together today and it runs good. We'll be sawing tomorrow.

[Planman1954]

My mill is orange too, but it ain't the same as pineywoods. So I'm confused again. Typical.

[D Hagens]

 Great posts, sure helps hearing that it doesn't really matter how big or small the companies are they seem to really be there and stand by their products. That's a positive thing as I'm leaning towards a smaller manufacture as the re pore seems to be working well between us.
 As for the one man circle mills does anyone have a pic of one? I'm kind of curious about these saws.

[paul case]

d,
go to page #3 and look at the thread called sawmill project, pictures and you will see a picture of an m-14 belsaw. pc

[D Hagens]

 Thanks paul case I looked at the page and checked the guys profile.

 I guess in many ways the mill is like a big table saw.

 It sure looks like fun but I would hate to fall on that blade.

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

Hagen heres afew pics of an Aussie style one man circ called a Tabletop or Rackbench Mill it gets used for remilling sleepers/ties most of the time now  but its been a great mill for the $5500 it cost to build back in 98 

 











The last pic is boards cut from 40 to 60 yo Redgum sleepers

Regards Chris

[Magicman]

Now, thats a "bad news" saw.  Talk about beefy.....

[D Hagens]

 Thanks  Meadows Miller

 I'm going to assume that these were pretty much stationary mills because of the size of them, am I correct or incorrect?

 Were they all hydraulic feed?

 Were there any disadvantages to these saws, asking as I was wondering why they don't make them anymore.

[paul case]

yep,
blade is expensive to maintain,requires much more hp to operate , wider kerf, the one i had loved to chuck chips directly at you no matter where you stood, not to mention many men who used them  cold no longer count to 10 . dont get me wrong the will make lumber and lots of it if they have the rite opertor. most work like well oiled machines. im certain that my band mill is much easier to maintain  and some safer.  pc

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

Now, thats a "bad news" saw.  Talk about beefy.....

No bad news here Magic And D Hagensi think its a light weight Mate  it weighs about 4500lbs and whenever i want to shift it ive just used the chamberlain loader in the pic and a couple of chains It origialy had an axle under it with a tow bar as the 28' center section had ben my 2nd csm  and we made up acouple of 6' extensions when we converted it over  a wet week back when we where building

we just had a 3'6" by 2" 1/4" mandrel with 8" colars and the feed works drum 7x24 and got the Hyd parts of the shelf at the local hyd shop and a pto slip clutch all up it measures 3'6" wide and 40' long the table runs on a set of 2x2" square tube with a c section under the table with the 1" angle welded to that so trash will fall through onto the ground  (usually they used a piece of plate steel on each side of the saw with acouple of guides welded to the underside to keep it inline  ) I just use alittle sump oil to make it slide smoothly and keep wear to a minimum 

Some Rack benches are on Rollers also 

The sizing on mines alittle diferent from when i first built it as there was a 2' long pin gauge on the operator side  The fence thats on it now was put on about 6 years ago to runn a large lot of 12x6" warf decking into flooring and its stayed that way since 

The Last manufacture building these mills for sale  that i know of was Varteg in NZ  and i think they stoped building them in about 99 but they built a nice pto powerd hyd feed one for about the $12k mark with a new 48" to 56" insert and sharpener and hyd dust drag chain they also supplyed a sawmill package with the Rack bench and a power feed Breast bench with a 36" saw and trolleys for about $24k with dust chain as well  their mills measured about 4 wide and 40 long and could saw a log upto 20' x 3' they where desingnd to be towed behind a car or tractor as they sold a fair few in NZ,Aust and the Pacific  Islands


I think the Rack bench is still a good idea for sawing cants and Ties/Sleepers but it has been around for 250 odd years with Frame,Circ and Bandsaw saw centers on timber frames with Arm strong (Manual  ) Belt and Hyd feed works the idea was when you wanted to shift  the mill you just milled enough timber for  a new frame then took all the hardwhare of the frme took your power plant and shifted to the next site and basicly built a new Mill   

I ran one of the later Varteg settups on electric with 20' by 4 strands graity rollers beteween the rack & breast benches  for a sawmiller up in the hills on pine two to three of us could saw around the 3000 mark He did double shift it with a 5 man crew each shift for the first few years he had it and said they regularly hit the 20 ton (8000 bft ) Mark sawn n stacked in the yard per crew back then  .that was sawing pallet and fencing timbers in 6x1" 5x1" 4x1" 4x2" and 4x3" 4' to 16' in length  which is moving but i could se how it could do it  as the beauty of it it just Worked and Worked Well    The problem these days Is the labour aspect these types of mills not many young ones want to do a real days work  some try but soon leave 

Paul You hit the nail on the head The works hard you get coverd in sawdust and theres a chance you might loose a finger or two if you dont keep you mind on the job But thats why I love this Game Mate 

I think the latter can happen with anything with a blade on it   

Regards Chris

[bandmiller2]

Paul,the reason many circular mill manuf. went out of business is liability.There is different type of person now that hasen't grown up around machinery and think everything is squeeky OSHA safe.Also changing times ,bandmills,and swing mills are a compact neat package that require minimum space and setup.Frank C.

[paul case]

frank
all true,all true,
those big blades are dangerous. but there are still many of them used in big mills around. they can make cuts fast.
i used to grow chickens lost contract then found out i cannot buy the same insurance if i dont have birds.had to cover them under a farm policy. they wrote a bussiness exclusion for my custom sawing business that is now housed in one of those chicken houses. turns out they wrote a liability policy on a guys farm that had a sawmill and a visitor got hurt. no more insuring sawmills for the company . my bad luck   
   i think it is a big step forward to find a more economical, easier,safer even greener way to do things.  pc

[Meadows Miller]

Wel I'll just say You cant IDIOT PROOF Everything in the World There Will always be some Nuff Nuff who will do em sefs damage   

[ljmathias]

I agree with the "two sides of the equation" statement- working as hard as possible to make things more economical, evironmentally friendly and energy efficient on one hand, and as simple and user friendly as possible on the other.  More and more complex technology battles simplicity and ease of use and humans get caught in the middle; when that's a big circular saw blade or pieces of a band blade flying through the air, metal wins and flesh loses.

I do some stupid things occasionally; we all do, and it seems the smarter you are, the stupider you can be at times (just an observation on my fellow workers).  As the saying goes, you can make something fool proof, but you can't make it da*n fool proof, and there's always a lot of da*n fools out there working harder then you.

Lj

[paul case]

well educated idiots?
common sense escapes the classroom . most of the time common sense is inherited and so is the lack of it.  pc

[paul case]

d hagens,
those m- 14 mills were not usually hyd driven. the original was a hand push feed. the one i had was power feed . 1 lever withv belts and pulleys  and a gear reduction for the cut. it went forward 1'' for every rev of the blade and went back 3 times faster than forward. pc

[D Hagens]

d hagens,
those m- 14 mills were not usually hyd driven. the original was a hand push feed. the one i had was power feed . 1 lever withv belts and pulleys  and a gear reduction for the cut. it went forward 1'' for every rev of the blade and went back 3 times faster than forward. pc

 So Paul case, in a way that I can understand the gear reduction thing worked like a manure spreader? Like it goes click, click then grabs and works like that?
 When it moves is it a slow move forward or is it a sudden jerk? If so does it slow things down?

[DanG]

  As the saying goes, you can make something fool proof, but you can't make it da*n fool proof, and there's always a lot of da*n fools out there working harder then you.

Lj

Or as Mark Twain said, "Nothing is foolproof for a sufficiently talented fool." 

[Coalsmoke]

D Hagens, what are your plans for the mill? Depending on this answer, you may find your selection narrowed down some. One builder I would stay away form is the one local to you and I, I have had a bad experience with them and it cost them my purchase.

I don't know about my mill's origins (other than what is on the Norwood website), but one thing I like about it is that most of the wearable parts like belts and bearings are available locally.

[Meadows Miller]

d hagens,
those m- 14 mills were not usually hyd driven. the original was a hand push feed. the one i had was power feed . 1 lever withv belts and pulleys  and a gear reduction for the cut. it went forward 1'' for every rev of the blade and went back 3 times faster than forward. pc

 So Paul case, in a way that I can understand the gear reduction thing worked like a manure spreader? Like it goes click, click then grabs and works like that?
 When it moves is it a slow move forward or is it a sudden jerk? If so does it slow things down?

DH with the feedworks the m14s had a simple v belt drive with no gear reduction the reduction was done through the size of the feedworks pulleys that the belts run on as the backing belt runs strait of the mandrel onto the feedworks cable drum  with  gear reduction was 1to1 usually two cast cogs about 6"to10"dia and  on larger mills like the Meadows,Frick and American and the like  and was used to change the direction the shaft sins in so when you pull the handel it feeds and when you push it returns thats why you see some of the older mills it works the other way around as they run a strait settup w/o the gears Mate 

Regards Chris

[D Hagens]

Had to read that twice Chris But with the explanation and looking at a few pics I understand it now.

 Here I sit reading about the old mills and I just remembered that in Ft. Langley they have a farm museum that has an old steam powered mill set up that they run every summer.

 The funny thing is that I lived in a heritage house for a year that was right across the street from the museum.