ASM Gear box problems

[Farmer Bob]

I have had an ASM saw mill for two years and in that time have had to replace the gear box 15 times. The mill manufacturer suggested it could be the belts being too tight but this has been dismissed by several Engineers who have attended the mill while its been operating. The mill is permanently situated undercover so the variables associated with constantly moving it around don't apply. Can anyone out there help me with some solution to solve this problem?

[islandlogger]

What make is the Mill??

[bandmiller2]

Bob, the cold hard fact is that gearbox is not heavy enough for the job and the manufacturer is in denial.How does it fail Bob,does it overheat, bearings or gear damage??Frank C.

[Gary_C]

Ya, bandmiller2 is probably right. The only thing I know to do, other than re engineer it with a better gearbox is to try a high priced synthetic gear oil like a 75w-140. You can also get some EP (extreme pressure) additives from some oil suppliers that may help.

I sure hope the manufacturer is standing behind the gearbox.

[backwoods sawyer]

You should not be having that kind of problems with a 06 Peterson mill. Gearboxes normally do not go out very often unless they are in a bind. When installing a new gearbox is everything going together like it should, or is it being a real bear to install?

[submarinesailor]

Ditto what Gary said:

Ya, bandmiller2 is probably right. The only thing I know to do, other than re engineer it with a better gearbox is to try a high priced synthetic gear oil like a 75w-140. You can also get some EP (extreme pressure) additives from some oil suppliers that may help.

I sure hope the manufacturer is standing behind the gearbox.

I recommend you try this product:  http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/svo.aspx

Used it for 20+ years.  Never had a gear box failure.  Note - I'm not running a Peterson mill.

Bruce

[scsmith42]

Bob, I have a WPF, which I think uses the same gear box.  No problems in 3 years.

If I were troubleshooting the problem, I would check the belt tension and how hot the gearbox is becoming.  Thinking out loud.... if the mill operates almost continually, the problem could be that the gearbox is overheating.  An add-on oil cooler and recirculating pump may solve that problem.

I run the highest quality gear oil that I can - in my case it is a product made by Lubrication Engineers.  The Amsoil gear lube that Bruce recommended is also a very good product.

[Part_Timer]

Bob

I run an 8"ATS and have had it for several years without a gearbox problem.  Are you running synthetic oil in it?  How is it failing?  A little more information would be helpful.

[Jeff]

Bob, the cold hard fact is that gearbox is not heavy enough for the job and the manufacturer is in denial.

Um...  That's a pretty sudden rush to judgment dont you think Frank when you don't know the whole story? Like maybe this mill was bought second hand and out of warranty to begin with for example and have no knowledge whether it had some sort of previous damage contributing to the ongoing gearbox problem? And that we have never had another case history of this appear on the Forestry Forum in 9 years?

[Gary_C]

I have had an ASM saw mill for two years and in that time have had to replace the gear box 15 times.

Wow, 15 times in two years? I didn't take much note of that statement before but what has taken so long to ask for help? One or two times, maybe three but not fifteen times. Are you sure you are putting oil in it? 

[Captain]

The one person I know of that had failures on that scale had a center unit that was not pivoting on the axis of the gearbox, belts loose in the vertical, overtight in the horizontal.

*Synthetic gear oil is a must.*

Is it a 1018 OR 1020 B&P gearbox?  Scratch that, I think all ASMs had the 1020.

Captain

[Farmer Bob]

In reply to all those who have made suggestions many thanks. Firstly I have been asking for help for the whole two years and have followed every recommendation by the maufacturer this is why I am now desperate for others help. The owner of the company actually came to Australia and helped set the mill up at one point and the gear box still failed. This mill was bought from an Agent with 120 hours on it and already one gear box replaced at 60 hours by the agent. I use the highest quality oil as recommended by the manufacturer of the mill and also the Italian manufacturers of the gear box itself. The gear box can be touched while in use so overheating is not a problem. The failure appears to occur around the pully bearing but several Engineers have verified the belts are not too tight. They have between 10mil and 20mil deflection. The bottom bearing above the blade is the other failure point. It chews out the bearing which then damages the housing. The gear box slips back into place perfectly and goes into the exact original position as this was marked by the agent when he had it.  Please . .  any more suggestions ?

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Possibly aluminum gear box, and it "stretches" from hard use, and allows the bearing to get loose and destroy the race seat ?  Aluminum grows from heat   Look for a cast Iron gearbox, maybe ??  Do you know of any others having the gearbox problem ??

  From using my WPF in HARD wood, I see the abuse the gearbox takes. Mine needs a kit put in, and I believe the key seat in the blade-end shaft has wallowed out. The clutch does not disengage anymore, so, I need to tear it down before sawing again.

[scsmith42]

In reply to all those who have made suggestions many thanks. Firstly I have been asking for help for the whole two years and have followed every recommendation by the maufacturer this is why I am now desperate for others help. The owner of the company actually came to Australia and helped set the mill up at one point and the gear box still failed. This mill was bought from an Agent with 120 hours on it and already one gear box replaced at 60 hours by the agent. I use the highest quality oil as recommended by the manufacturer of the mill and also the Italian manufacturers of the gear box itself. The gear box can be touched while in use so overheating is not a problem. The failure appears to occur around the pully bearing but several Engineers have verified the belts are not too tight. They have between 10mil and 20mil deflection. The bottom bearing above the blade is the other failure point. It chews out the bearing which then damages the housing. The gear box slips back into place perfectly and goes into the exact original position as this was marked by the agent when he had it.  Please . .  any more suggestions ?

It sounds like a lot of troubleshooting has already been performed, including most of the "easy items".

At this point, I think that I would look closely at the items associated with the gearbox that have NOT been replaced.  As a next step, I would have a high performance automotive machine shop check the static and dynamic balance on both the belt pulley (that attaches to the gear box) as well as the mandrel and blades.  They should have some type of universal mandrel that they can use to spin the parts upon an engine balancer.  If for some reason you had an extremely out of balance pulley, that could damage the bearings.

[DanG]

Farmer Bob, I'm pulling for you man, and welcome to the Forestry Forum.  I sure hope we can get this frustrating problem solved for you.

I have just one question...did those engineers that checked the belts check them in both planes, as Captain suggested?  That seems to be the only historical anecdote known.  If they didn't, I would check that at first opportunity.

Also, the ASM can keep the blade in the wood more than any other sawmill I can think of.  Could it be that you're just pushing it too hard?  After all, it is designed to be a portable mill, and is lightly built because of that.

[Firebass]

This isn't the first ASM gearbox problem thats been solved here.  I'd listen to Captains Diagnosis first.  Here is why:...Because if the pivot axis is off then its like a giant CAM that tightens the belts when you rotate the blade then and side load of the gear box is stressed beyond its capacity.   If thats the case I'm sure the factory will stand behind it. to check this you could mount a dial indicator so it is reading the pulley with the belts off.  Rotate the carraige, I would think it should be within .015 Inchs maybe a little more.  But if its off .125" or so I think thats your problem.

Firebass

[LOGDOG]

Farmer Bob,

   Hate to hear that you're having problems like this. I've been there myself when it comes to equipment. Mentally exhausting ... the problem solving process. If you look at my gallery and posts, you'll see that I had an ASM. I sold it a couple years ago. I never had a problem with the gear box but I will say this; Peterson sent me an extra gear box without me asking them to - on their own dime. I had discussed possibly increasing the horsepower and if memory serves me right, there was concern on their end as to whether the gearbox I had would withstand the increased load. I neither increased the horsepower nor installed the other gearbox. I will say this though - I babied that ASM on the feed rate. The horsepower was light and if I pushed it much at all in a cut over 6" deep she'd really bog down. So I made it my practice to literally watch the RPM's and keep them high. DanG introduced a good question, "Are you pushing it too hard?". (Not saying you are.) Just rule it out. That machine is built too light for what we as the individuals who bought them tended to want to do with them. Don't get me wrong, there were days we made some serious sawdust in small dimension lumber that produced little drag.

   What concerns me is that the gearbox had already been replaced at 120 hours by the Peterson Rep. We don't have the advantage of knowing how he sawed or what may have lead to the initial break down.

   Have you altered your mill in any way from original factory specs?

   You can search my posts and in their you'll see me mention a problem I had with the setworks on my ASM. I can't tell you how many hours and phone calls I spent with Peterson trying to solve the problem. Over and over I would perform the things that were supposed to help troubleshoot the problem and diagnose the "known causes" of the symptoms I was experiencing. In the end it took two extra sets of eyes helping me spot the problem. It ended up being a bent arbor on the little electric motor that rotates the sprocket that moves the head left to right. (You likely know what I'm talking about.) The thing about it was, that arbor was completely out of sight from most points of view, it was completely out of the travel path of anything - you could barely get to it even when you wanted to let alone accidentally to bend it. That was what lead me to believe that the arbor had been bent at the factory. Perhaps the motor had been dropped on the arbor end or something.

   My point in telling you this is that sometimes - especially when we seem to have tried everything else by the book and according to the manufacturer, you have to be looking at the other things that contribute to the motion leading up to the mechanism that is failing. In my case it was an "unknown / previously unexperienced circumstance" that was causing my sypmtoms. It was unique to my mill and the journey it and it's parts had been through. Personally I don't think too much emphasis should be placed on the lubricant at this point. The best lubricant in the most misaligned mechanism will not prevent failure.

   Have you paid for the 15 gearboxes out of pocket or are Petersons picking up the tab on that? If Peterson is picking it up, they'd likely be money ahead to swap out your center unit, take your motor and mount it to the new center unit with new gearbox etc. and hope for the best. If you're paying for it then consider what you've spent thus far on actual parts and labor, downtime and frustration and whether or not you want the trend to possibly continue. Sometimes there is justification for scrapping part of an assembly and moving forward with new.

   I would be very, VERY curious what would happen if you took your center unit off after the gearbox has failed, crated it up and sent it to NZ where the factory could replace the gearbox to spec, drop it on a high / low track frame there at the factory and put one of their men on it sawing fulltime. How soon would failure occur? Or would it? There's only one way to know. Are you in Australia? NZ isn't all that far to ship it from there. Just a thought. It does need to be fixed - regardless of who's on the hook for the cost. You'll either need to fix it so that you can put it to work or you'll get to the point where you're frustrated and tired of dealing with it and need to fix it so that it is suitable for sale and you can sell it with a good conscience and recover some of your investment.

   If indeed the gearbox failed within the first 120 hours while in the Peterson agents care, I'm inclined to think that it is a mechanical misalignment or mismanufacturing of your assembly that is unique to your mill and began from inception. To know what that is would require measuring the specs on your assembly vs. the blueprinted specs to make sure that everything is aligned properly.  Focus on the mechanisms that contribute to the motion/ function of the plagued mechanism from beginning to end.

You can figure this out.  Now I'm curious as to what it is. I'll check back on your progress.

Keep your chin up.

LOGDOG

[LOGDOG]

Adding on to what Firebass said, when you rotate the head ...raise your carriage height, and watch it from below as it rotates(with saw not running). Have someone else activate the switch for you on your command. If you're doing the activating you're not getting to see the parts in motion.

LOGDOG

[ErikC]

  Have the gearboxes been outright replacements?Or rebuilt with your old shaft and arbor? If rebuilt there may be a problem with that shaft wallowing out the bearings. It's probably not bent if the saw is cutting fine, but a little out of round or something. Good luck anyway.

[Gary_C]

The gear box can be touched while in use so overheating is not a problem.

 It chews out the bearing which then damages the housing.

I just can't understand how this can happen. When a bearing or gear fails, overheating is always a factor. And if I generally understand what you meant by "chews out the bearing,"  that also cannot happen without a lot of heat being generated. There is just no way I know of to eat steel or wear out bearings without a lot of heat being generated.

Personally I don't think too much emphasis should be placed on the lubricant at this point.

LOGDOG, that was a very excellent post. However I must take issue with your assesment of the importance of the lubricant. All bearing and gear failures are a result of lubricant failure or stated another way, the inability of the lubricant to maintain a film separating two rolling or sliding metal components. Yes, the cause of the lubricant breakdown can be the loads exerted by misalignment or overloads, but lubricant failure is the end result that will cause metal to metal contact and overheating of the components. The only other cause is material failures that again will result in metal to metal contact or the inability of the lubricant film to separate the two components.

So in any gearbox failure, the lubricant is the first place to look. I personally have seen where undersized gearboxes have been made to carry the higher loads by the addition of some EP (extreme pressure) additives to the gear oil.

So in this situation, you should take a very hard look at the gear oil you are using. I know those synthetic gear oils are expensive, but they are still cheaper than failures. If a different and better gear oil doesn't help, the next thing to look at would be quality of the bearings in the gearbox.

[LOGDOG]

Morning Gary,

   I tend to think a bit differently. The saying, "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" is usually true in life. In my mind, you begin with good design, good components - sized appropriately for the job, and proper alignment and you will have less heat automatically, and certainly less failure.(At least in the bearing environment.) To me, lubricant (while necessary as a component) is the "pound of cure" sometimes meant to solve the heat issue that actually stems from poor design, poor components, misalignment, or mis-use/abuse of the mechanism for a task that is larger than it was designed for.

   The notion that this gearbox issue began so early in the life of this mill - while it likely still had the factorys choice of lubricants still in it leads me to believe that something is misaligned. One step further, because most mills stay fairly well aligned for a good while after being manufactured and sold, would look at whether something is mismanufactured - out of spec perhaps.

   When you compare my experience with the ASM vs. Farmer Bob's I would guess that I maybe had a smaller gearbox since mine was an earlier mill and they later changed the gearbox. Yet I never had a problem with it. I never ran super expensive lubricants in it. Just did my best to keep it aligned and respect the machines limits.

   Just talking through scenario's in the hopes of narrowing this down for Farmer Bob. Always enjoy your posts Gary_C. 


LOGDOG

[Gary_C]

    In my mind, you begin with good design, good components - sized appropriately for the job, and proper alignment and you will have less heat automatically, and certainly less failure.(At least in the bearing environment.)

That is certainly true. But the reality of good design is there are always tradeoffs. Size and space limitations as well as weight limits force even good designs into compromises that will cause overheating and failures under some, but not all circumstances. When a piece of equipment has to fly, move, or be lifted by hand it does limit a designers options.

The other major uncertainty in any design like this is the actual loading on the gearbox. It makes a big difference as to what kind of wood you are cutting and the duty cycle. A machine that is worked for an hour and then is down for a time may not see any problems with gearboxes while a machine that works steady for four hours may have repeated gearbox failures.

So I am not saying to ignore the alignment issues as they are controllable to some extent. I am just saying that the easiest way to overcome some of those overloading and alignment issues is to use a better lubricant.

[Firebass]

There are ways to design equipment to be reliable around the limits of space and wieght.  If the bearings are giving out before they're life it means they are exceeding they're dynamic load range.  Synthetic Oil will make a bearing last longer but its my opinion that the real problem is overloading of the bearing in the first place.   And that a gearbox should last a many years if designed correctly.  Think about it synthetic oil is a fairly recent invention and it really just makes it so engineers can cut corners on iffy or close to the limit design criteria.   
I have a example that might bring light.   I have a cheap China piece of Crap metal bandsaw that I was having to replace the gearbox in it once every 3 or 4 months.   I am brutal to it,  6 hours a day normally,  using a 4 tooth per inch blade cutting 4140 steel.  But about 2 years ago I decided that since it was under engineered for the heavy use I was giving it I would double up the roller bearing that was giving out.  This was easy since all I had to do was bore out the housing to fit 2 bearings instead of 1.   Since that fix I never have had a breakdown.  I expect I never will. 
My point is that maybe I could of got away with using "Synth Oil" but now its designed right and its not needed.
Maybe Someone needs to design a kit that can be bolted on to the gearbox to add a heavier bearing or a double row bearing.   

Making my Swingmill I solved this problem by designing my saw arbor (Shaft) completely separate from the gear box to take the dynamic side load off the gearbox.  The bearing that hold the saw blade and shaft  are  huge 1 15/16".  Yes it over kill but I never have to worry if it can take Industrial use.  As for the gearbox:  It sees no side load other than the belts that drive it and the blade is totally.  Its a standard 90 degree gearbox and a new one is only a few hundred dollars should I ever need one.   Not sure if this really helps but its good reading...

Firebass.

[Gary_C]

There are ways to design equipment to be reliable around the limits of space and wieght.  If the bearings are giving out before they're life it means they are exceeding they're dynamic load range. 

In an ideal world that's true. But many times it is difficult to know exactly all the loads and stresses that will be put on a piece of equipment after it is built. And then there are manufacturing tolerances, assembly errors, and operator errors to consider.

I can tell a story too. There was a young machine designer that just finished designing a new machine and his supervisor looked at the drawing and said "that's nice, but it doesn't look strong enough, beef it up a little." The designer protested that he had taken every possible load into account and it was plenty strong, but the supervisor insisted and he was right. What the designer did not take into account was the possiblity that the operator would drop something into the machine and then get a four foot pipe wrench to unjam the machine. By the time he got the something out, everything would be twisted out of alignment and the machine would never be the same again.

And then sometimes costs can get in the way. It's one thing when you are making just one and another when you are going into production with many machines.

And other times if you are designing portable machines or airplanes the old saying "it has to fly" causes problems.

Before there was synthetic gear oils there were EP additives and before that there was Pennsylvannia crude. Those were all tricks to extend the life of gearboxes. 

   Not sure if this really helps but its good reading...

Sure hope so. 

[bandmiller2]

I may have shot from the hip with my origional statement about the gearbox not being heavy enough,I didn't realize it was a Peterson product,and they would not use a box that wouldn't do the job.Somehow I feel  we don't know all the facts,possibly a bad run of boxes from the manuf. or more likley the mentioned alignment problem.Really after two years of problems and many replaced boxes Bob should have been given a new or rebuilt mill and an autopsy done on the old one at the factory.Frank C.

[Captain]

Another thought...all bearings are NOT created equal.  The best bearings have an ABEC -3 rating.  Here is a quote from a popular definitions website :

"ABEC is an acronym for Annular Bearing Engineering Committee of the AFBMA (Anti-Friction Bearing Manufacturers Association Inc). The ABEC grades of bearings is a set of standards for the manufacturing tolerances of bearings. All quality manufacturers around the world manufacture to at least ABEC 1 standard. If you were to ask your local bearing supplier for a 608ZZ, you would almost certainly receive an ABEC 1 bearing."

There is certainly a price difference...and the originals that come in the B&P gearboxes are ABEC -1 as it is a "low RPM" gearbox.  The ABEC 3 rated bearings are typically many times the price of an ABEC 1 bearing.  In your situation with all other variables considered, I would not be using another new gearbox with ABEC 1 bearings.

Just for clarification, what is powering your ASM?  Gas or Electric?  What HP?

Captain

[LOGDOG]

"And then there are manufacturing tolerances, assembly errors, and operator errors to consider."


   This is a good place to start looking because it addresses the "human factor". I'd like to see more input from Farmer Bob on this post regarding what is and isn't the case. Were these all new gearboxes - 15 of them? Did he re-build one gearbox 15 times? Etc.... If they were new, surely you can rule out a bad run of gearboxes. I mean what are the chances that one guy - Famer Bob - would be the only guy in the world to get this bad run of gearboxes. Not likely. So I'd say toss that out.

   Is it necessarily operator abuse by Farmer Bob? Not necessarily if the problem began before FB took possession of the mill while in the care of the Factory Rep.

   Process of elimination requires that we ask the questions:

When? - When did the problem begin?
What? - What were you doing when the failure happened?
Where? - Where was the mechanical failure?
Was? - Was the machine properly aligned and maintained at the time of failure?
Why? - Why did the failure occur?
How? - How can you repair not only the failed machansim but also the stimulus or process that caused it to begin with?

   Actually, since the problem supposedly began prior to Farmer Bob, we'd actually need the Factory Rep who had the mill initially and first experienced the problem, to chime in here and comment. If what Farmer bob says is true, then only the Rep has the answer to the first 5 questions.

   Farmer Bob ...where is the next closest ASM to you. I would be curious if you could set them side by side and take measurements from one to the other to check tolerances and the assembly of your mill against one that is not having trouble?

   Hey Captain.  I see you just posted. Granted on this side of the discussion most of us don't know what is or isn't absolutely the case - but if indeed the failure began pre-Farmer Bob, don't you think we need to rewind things back to the early life of the mill and possibly a misalignment or manufacturing tolerance that is off? You're the troubleshooting engineer in the bunch. What would you have done at GM?

LOGDOG

[bandmiller2]

As logdog says we don't know the whole story.A blade with the wrong angle on the bits or even dull bits can soon overload the box and engine.Swing mills are designed to be light and portable and not really for constant commercial pounding,its use would have considerable bearing on its survival.Alot of us here take what are basically hobby mills, be they band or circular, and expect to make a living with them.My opinion Frank C.

[beenthere]

I may have shot from the hip with my origional statement about the gearbox not being heavy enough,.......................

.........Really after two years of problems and many replaced boxes Bob should have been given a new or rebuilt mill and an autopsy done on the old one at the factory.Frank C.

As you said a couple times.........

we don't know the whole story

[James P.]

well I would like to hear more from farmer Bob as well. When I first read the post If what he said was true 15 gearboxes. Thats not 15 rebuilds. I would and did assume it was a cheap gearboxes. Well not necessarily. It usually comes down to the operators and our excuse is to usually blame the manufacturer. Like running a brush hog over stumps or cutting over sized brush. eventually somethings got to give. Even small gearboxes on John deere decks and other makes eventually need replacing if used commercially. bearings are replaceable for a reason. I  wonder if the machine was that out of alignment and was working the gearbox that hard. Wouldn't you notice it. I haven't a clue myself. Never seen a Peterson or other type mill in person besides a big circular.

[Farmer Bob]

Thanks to everone who responded to my predicament. I'd like to clarify some points and questions that have been raised.

I bought the mill to subsidise my income from my farm during these drought conditions here in Australia. The mill is set up in a shed in my backyard and is operated only by me. It runs between the hours of 8am and 5pm, 5 days a week, in conjunction with farming, so it is not working constantly. While on a trip to Australia, the manufacturer came to my home once the mill was assembled to make sure it was set up correctly and to teach me how to use it properly and all was correct then.

I only buy plantation pine logs to cut into sleepers 200 mil x 75 mil x2.4. The vertical cut at 75 mil, or 3", is made in one cut. The horizontal cut of 200 mil, or 8", is made in two cuts of 100 mil, or 4", each. I have never cut anything larger than this but do cut smaller sizes. I have not cut anything but pine nor have I used the slabber that came with the saw.

I use only the best quality Synthetic oil avaliable in Australia as recommended by Petersons. The mill has not been altered in any way. It is powered by a 27 HP Kohler petrol motor which was supplied with the mill. Everything is set up according to the Petersons manual and has been verified by Engineers, who have also stated it's aligned perfectly. They seem to think there's a deeper underlying problem. The blades are always sharpened after approximately 2 hours of use or sooner if necessary. The motor runs at maximum revs and never drops below 80% while cutting the timber, as I listen to the revs very closely on the motor to ensure I'm not cutting too quickly.

There have been 5 new gear boxes and one new casing. All the rest have been rebuilds by highly qualified Engineers. Petersons have replaced one gear box and the casing free of charge. All bearings that have been replaced are the C-3 bearings which is what Petersons recommend.

Does anyone know whether or not the torque produced by the 10" blade could be too powerful for the 1020 Bondioli and Pavesi gear box ? This is the only option I haven't covered as yet although a few engineers have suggested the gear box could be too weak for the saw. From responses I've had, it appears there could be a problem with the 10" as no-one seems to have the same problem with the 8" which runs a 1018 gear box. Therefore the question on torque.

I have come to the forum as I'm at my wits end with this mill. It has cost me a fortune in rebuilds and lost income. I am very grateful for all the suggestions and will pass these on to my local Engineer. As the problem started with the agent at 60 hours before I purchased it at 120 hours - - -  then replaced the gear box again at 136 hours with the agents help at a cost to me - - - -  I'm inclined to think, like some of you, it may be a manufacturing problem. Most of your suggestions have already been addressed and ruled out as possibilities by Engineers.

Many thanks.
Farmer Bob

[bandmiller2]

Bob,I feel for you mate,you've been through alot.I would get rid of that sucker ideally to the manuf. for a ripper deal on a new one or try anouther brand or type of mill.Life is too short to put up with that.Frank C.

[LOGDOG]

Farmer Bob,

   Thanks for the added background on the mill. Cutting the material that you are you should have no problem as far as overloading the mill or it's components. I had the 27 H.P. Kohler on my 10" ASM and it did fine in fresh cut pine cutting small dimension lumber. Not so good in dimensions above 6" in width - especially in the horizontal plane for some reason. If I was cutting 10" wide material for instance I'd split the cut into two bites 5" wide each because the mill was pretty gutless if I tried to bury the whole 10" of the saw at one time. But I digress ...

   At this point this is what I would do. I would take your center unit out of the machine which should leave you with a pretty small unit that you could put in a crate. It's small enough that you should be able to air freight it from Australia to NZ at a reasonable charge and still get it back in a reasonable amount of time. I would send it to Petersons and have them strip your unit of the usable parts unrelated to the mechanisms that can influence load on the gear box (outside of sawing pressure) - anything that could influence the throw on the belts, create side load pressure because of misalignment -scrap. Have them mount your motor and salvageable hardware on a new center unit with a new gearbox. You guys work out who's going to pay for what.

   Even if you opt to sell this thing it needs to be in good working order so some other guy doesn't end up holding the bag with a machine that has issues. While I also had many issues with my ASM - the Petersons were pretty proactive as far as standing behind their parts. One of the things that complicated service issues is that they're in NZ and I was here on the other side of the world. It's not like you can hook your mill up to the truck and cart it down there, drop it off, say "fix this", and come back to pick it up when they're done. The distance between the manufacturer and the customer makes service impractical. I'm sure if a guy was in NZ and near them they'd be more than happy to give things a hands on approach as far as service is concerned. Unfortuantely in many cases it's just not possible because of the distance. So crate that thing up and send it off. I know it'll be expensive but trying to get it done locally hasn't been cheap or effective either.


Maybe Peterson can help you find some low cost shipping options back and forth? Might be something to suggest ...

LOGDOG

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

And welcome to the forum Bob where abouts are you located Mate  we've got another Aussie 

Im sorry about the reason your here but i hope you will stick aorund Mate 

I 'll tell you that breaking down somtimes is part of this game  But it would'nt have gotten to 5 rebuilds with me before i cracked  and just sent it back untill the thing came back running like it should  Its very rare but 15 times out of your own pocket in 2/3 years is just a bloody joke we are not talking about a $10 part here something should have been done about it by now  thats about $1000 once every 4 to 6 weeks   

how many hours is on the mill total ?? if you took the cost of repairs ,downtime lost production (income/profit) over the last couple of years  you would easly cover the cost of the mill 
It might be time to cut your losses  park the mill and start negotiating  a solution  to the issue weather that be getting a wpf demo mill onhire or anew center unit with just the gearbox and the swing assembly  or  somthing like that  while you send yours back to the factory for a full strip down and going over somthing might have been running or welded alittle out of whack thats just going to keep chewing through Your wallet  Or it might even be time to start looking around for another mill either way you cant keep working with a mill thats  unreliable somthing needs to be done Mate 

 

Regards Chris

[Tom]

Chris,
The mill is second hand and the manufacturer has already bent over backward to try to help get the problem resolved.  That includes providing new parts, redesigned parts and engineering advice.  The problems haven't all been confronted by the manufacturer because other mechanics have been used to do repairs, fixes, whatever.

Putting the onus on the manufacturer, in this situation, doesn't seem to be right thing to do, to me.  Especially when it sounds as if help has been for the asking.

I personally know the manufacturer owners and know them to be friendly and fair.  They are also a sponsor on this forum and have been super nice to all of the members.  It just doesn't sound to me as if this whole problem should be tossed off onto them.

Farmer bob was upfront in saying that he didn't want to turn this into a bashing; that he was only interested in getting a resolution to the problem so that he could fix it.   I think it best for all of us to keep our advice directed toward the mechanics of the problem and leave the customer/manufacturer relationship out of it.

[firefighter]

I have been reading all the posts on this matter and I agree with what Tom is saying .

[Farmer Bob]

Chris

I'm in South Gippsland.

Tom

Yes, phone help has always been avaliable to me and the manufacturer even had a phone conversation with one of the Engineers on site while he worked on the gear box. And yes, as I've stated they have supplied me a gear box and a casing free of charge.

The only reason I've had to have other Engineers work on this is because we don't have a company rep here to help me. Unfortunately on a recent trip to Australia by the manufacturer / owner of the company I was unable to afford the costs involved in having him call on me, nor can I afford to pack up the mill and ship it back as has been suggested.

I came to the forum hoping someone may be able to provide some first hand experience or knowledge on how or what can be done to solve this issue.

Bob

[James P.]

Farmer Bob I still am not clear what has happened to the gearbox. the bearings have failed. gears have failed. Could you possibly take pictures of this gearbox . do you have one which is damaged. or have the damaged parts. is the housing wallowed out. seals shot. Just doesn't make any sense that this thing has been lined up as you say and has these issues unless you are over looking something. I personally can't believe this to be that difficult of a fix .

[sgschwend]

I know you have had a lot of inputs, I have been studying swing mills with the interest of perhaps building one.  Well in my studies I found that the power rating of the gear box varies with rpm.  You may want to take a look at those specifications. 

In other words from my memory the power the gear box can handle drops very quickly with the drop in rpm.  Like a factor of 10, which is a steep drop!  Yep 1/10 the horse power when turning at a low rpm.

I do not know if you have put a load (or even if it is possible to do so) on your gear box in a stalled or low rpm condition, but if so you probably have damaged it.

[Wife]

Hey guys

Thought I’d finally add to the conversation, which I have been watching closely, but with great sadness. A great big thank you to those of you who have been very fair, unbiased and helpful. There are a lot of very smart guys on here who have dropped many ideas that are dead-on.

Yes, we can offer more information. Husband has spent many hours helping our customer Farmer Bob, but there are some important clues and events missing, and we still need more information which we have asked for. I will try to be as fair as possible without standing on anyone’s toes – I apologize in advance if the toe still hurts afterwards – but new shoes do need breaking in.

The mill is a 2006 model. The first owner’s gearbox bearing failure was caused by our factory guy who admitted over tightening the belts. Duh on us. We replaced it under warranty without question, and the owner gave us no indication there were any further issues with it when he on-sold the mill privately in 2007.

We are only aware of TWO full gearbox replacements by our current owner this year in 2009 – the earlier repairs have obviously been rebuilds by others, which we don’t have the full details of.

Farmer Bob was always keen to learn, but with great respect and by his own admission, is not all that mechanically minded. So Husband has been to his site for personal training at the beginning, plus spent many hours over the phone training on further maintenance and troubleshooting in general. We’ve been patient and caring nonetheless, and have certainly not given up on him at any time.

When Husband trained Farmer Bob at the beginning in 2007, there were no apparent issues with the gearbox and the mill performed correctly. We later have record of one incorrect gearbox rebuild in early 2008 causing several associated adjustment problems, which we eventually helped diagnose over the phone, and the original owner even went to his site to help rectify it. This is the only one we are aware of that damaged the bottom bearing as it wasn’t shimmed and realigned correctly. As posted by AusLJW on Feb 17th 2008;

[Hello. Put in a big day on Saturday and fixed the ASM.  Owner had re-removed gearbox to replace a leaky seal so I put it back with no shims. Cut the first log and hey presto, no overcut grooves.  It took a long time to get the rest of the adjustments right. The main culprit being the blade flip mechanism.  I think the problem was that when the Ag engineer removed and repaced the gearbox he didn't note or mark the position of the bottom bearing.  He must have just put it back on without considering how sensitive the machine would be to this.  The owner had spent hours adjusting the machine around this mis-aligned bearing so things were way off.]

Our notes indicate there was another rebuild in Aussie where the Engineer didn’t do it quite right again and the circlip fell out.

In 2008 we were also advised the pivot bracket may have become bent, and we quoted for a replacement one, but I don’t think it was ever purchased. Continuing to operate with a bent pivot system could cause many issues, and this concerns me. Yes, we did offer to travel to Farmer Bob’s at one stage (at cost only), but unfortunately that wasn’t taken up.

2009 - One of the recent new gearboxes on record Farmer Bob paid for, and the other we paid for without question when it failed prematurely. We also sent another repair kit for free as well, as we were told shortly after it arrived that a seal was leaking on that one too. Then after speaking to the Bondi guys in Aussie, we were told the failures were due to excessive side loading at the topside, as the actual housings were being warped out of shape at the entry shaft. This has never happened to any other gearbox in the history of our mills. If it’s not due to over-tightened belts, its due to jamming the blade in the log, blade badly out of adjustment, operating at low rpm stressing the box, or some other stress we still don’t know about. Farmer Bob was very honest and personally advised me in two separate conversations that the operator did tend to jam in the log at times. Made sense. With all respect to the Aussies, we do have a few harsh operators there! So being the nice person my Husband is, he spent some extra money and designed a special strengthening bracket with a secondary outrigger bearing to go on the input shaft, so that those excessive side loads would not damage the gearbox. This was sent to Farmer Bob recently with another housing kit for free, and he was asked that it be installed, with feedback back to us. We also advised we would not pay for any more gearboxes until the previous failed ones were returned to us for inspection per our warranty procedures. We were then saddened to receive an angry email labeled without prejudice, threatening to contact the competition and to take further action, and the next we knew this post was started.

We’ve recently asked for a progress report on the upgrade, but only got another angry response – I can understand your frustrations Farmer Bob, but we can’t help fix them if we aren’t kept in the loop. We still don’t know if the upgrade was even installed, and we still have none of the failed parts returned to us. I think my Husband has gone waaaay beyond the call of normal warranty. We’d love to help get you going again Farmer Bob, but we can’t do that without co-operation from both sides. Please Farmer Bob, can you start talking to us amicably again and respond to our email?

Any other questions to me, I would be more than happy to answer.

[James P.]

Geeze Wife, if I had the dough I would by a Peterson just cause I like your attitude. That said I am broke so thats just a compliment. I hope farmer Bob takes your kind offer up and I hope you guys get it worked out for him. We all relies as customers at one point or another we can be demanding at least speaking for myself and I am unanimous in that. All joking aside I have only heard good things about Peterson and from people who I believe have alot of integrity

[LOGDOG]

Quoting Paul Harvey, "Now you know the rest of the story."

Thanks "Wife" for chiming in and adding clarity to the scenario.

Hopefully Farmerbob can put frustrations aside, open the lines of communication up again, and get this thing lined back up. Farmerbob, send them back the parts they've asked you to and give them the chance to diagnose the problem and if necessary do the right thing by replacing something. I can honestly say that they did well by me in that respect. I know how frustrating it is when you're broke down and money is tight and you can't seem to get a machine back in alignment. But you cannot let it get the best of you. Something that everyone who is considering buying a sawmill must remember:

1) If you're not mechanically inclined, be prepared for frustration. You'll need to become mechanically inclined quick. It just goes with equipment.

2) If money is tight to begin with, don't buy a sawmill. Rarely is that the answer to a man's money problems. For a few yes, in general -no. There will be a need to spend money continually after the purchase of a mill. Blades, service, maintenance items, support equipment, insurance, logs, maybe a vehicle to tow it, trailers, a building, etc, etc. - it never ends.

   You have to be prepared to do whatever it takes to push through - if you want to be in that business or any business for that matter. Sometimes that even means us putting our pride and frustrations aside. Been there done that.

Hope you guys can work this out. I believe you can.


LOGDOG


 

[firefighter]

Now we have both sides of the story ,I am glad that the manufactuer has given us what we wanted to hear and I hope Farmer Bob gets the info and parts to you as you have asked for .It seem this could have been settled with out having to use this means and hopefully there are no more posts about this .

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

I did do a reply to this last night but my session timed out and I lost it 

Tom I was'nt trying to bash the Peterson mills (they do build a nice one ) I was looking at it from the point of view that all the trouble shooting and adjustments that could be made  had been done  Mate  That been said I have loved the Wpf mills i have had the opertunity to have a swing on over the years and was looking at getting a wpf with all the trimmings before i got the lucas last year aswell but Like james money was tight and i could only get $10k cash together at that time  James dont worry your not the only one Mate   
 
Kerris I do know that ppl overloading the mill and trying to lift  feed speeds to try and get more production just overloads the whole mill saw, driveline & motor and that goes for any mill  It just does'nt work ive seen it all too often !! the big gains in any mill afer having your saw unit runing spoton and easily  are from How the whole sawmill is setup, Decision making, quick setts and keeping the saw in the wood 

and Whats that we have some Bloody Rough Operators overehere do we      Must be why I get offered some bloody good jobs & money  2to3 times every year all over aust  A good Sawyers hard to come by these days in any country    But i got out of that afew years ago as for every good mill owner i worked for  i had to deal with an Idiot or two     

Bob your not too far from me and ill be down your way in about 3 weeks looking at a another sawmill with my business partner  and i can drop past and have a looksee if you like Mate   
If you take Kerris up on her offer and get in contact with them  and have the parts there i might be able stay down a day or two and give you a hand to try and get the thing sorted  Mate 

And dont worry I wont be handing you an invoice at the end of it  I just want to see you up and running w/out the dramas Mate 

Oh and Kerris say gday to Aaron for me you have a top bloke working for you there 

Regards Chris

 

[Farmer Bob]

I hope I will be able to post this reply as there are a few facts I would like to correct.

It has never been my aim to "bash" Petersons and I've always maintained without the gear box issues that keep rising I have been very happy with my saw. For two years the dialouge between Petersons and myself, both by phone and email has never ceased and the only reason I sought legal advise was when I kept recieving emails quoting the manufacturers warranty conditions, hence the few emails headed 'without predjudice,' on advice. However this has not been the road I wish to go do down so I quickly dropped the idea and the email headers. That was when I decided to come to the forum to see if anyone else could come up with a solution or idea that has not been attempted.

In September this year I took the damaged parts to Bondioli and Pavesi in Melbourne hoping that they, as the actual gear box manufacturer, could help. They also had contact with Petersons and agreed to send the parts back to NZ but are still waiting for certain information from Petersons before sending them. Both of us have sent emails reminding Petersons that the parts they want returned are still there. That side of it is completely out of my hands.

Yes, the very first repair I had done, on the first gear box to go, was done by a mechanic who didn't do it right and the circlip did fall out but since then I have used only very qualified Engineers because I am the first to admit I have very little mechanical knowlege and at 58 years old
am happy to let the profesionals do their job.

I am the operator of my mill and have not said anyone else jams it but have admitted I did jam it myself once in the early days, so consequently now listen very carefully to the revs, as I've said in a previous posting.

I have NEVER solicitored help from "the opposition" as was claimed, but I have been contacted by another mill manufacturer offering to help me, for which I'm very grateful. I am not an angry person  . . . . it's a very wasted emotion the serves no one, . . .but I let Petersons know I was disappointed that others are offering the help I had hoped they might have offered.


Unfortunately the costs involved in flights, labour and accomodation required when Petersons were visiting our State was something I could not afford. I understand it is their policy to charge for these calls but had hoped that as they had already made the 3 hour trip to Australia and were only a couple of hours drive away from me, and with the persistant problems I've been having, they would have called on me without this cost.

Please Petersons, get the parts from Bondioli and Pavesi, as arranged, and anylise and solve the problem.

Thanks.
Bob