Author Topic: Skid Trails 'R' Us (Read 2003 times)

chainspinrunner · « **on:** November 13, 2009, 11:49:19 am »

So, I am doing a term paper and I chose to write about skid trails and their effects on logging/forestry. In my education here at Paul Smith's we have touched ground on skid trails, but we have gotten too in-depth. I was employed as a cutter/cable skidder operator since 2005, and still do when I have breaks from school in the great northeast. I want to get IN-DEPTH on skid trails and explore new ideas that I can utilize and practice. One example I touched on is the average area most skid trails take up on a logging operation. I have taken care of the majority of the 15 pager so far, but there's always tidbits or hints that I could add. I love to cite the forestry forum when it's proper!
G.Rose

Ron Scott · « **Reply #1 on:** November 13, 2009, 12:25:50 pm »

Might find some additional info here.

http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/naturalresources/DD6970.html

beenthere · « **Reply #2 on:** November 13, 2009, 02:44:28 pm »

Great that you have the experience to add more depth to your paper.

Isn't it great to be able to do a 15 page paper on the computer, rather than having to hand-write it or use a manual typewriter to type an error free copy.

And toss in Google and the FF for good measure.

A whole different world out there now.

But don't make too many errors like this

Quote

but we have gotten too in-depth.

when you mean "but we have not gotten too in-depth.". Or did I read that wrong

Tom · « **Reply #3 on:** November 13, 2009, 02:52:43 pm »

If you've done something wrong ...or not.... Beenthere's gonna catch it.

James P. · « **Reply #4 on:** November 13, 2009, 04:34:57 pm »

I caught that too. I knew what you meant. You will catch me doing that too. I meant never.

woodtroll · « **Reply #5 on:** November 15, 2009, 03:18:11 pm »

The amount of area taken from production is a good subject. Another, the result of poorly constructed skid trails. The amount of work going in to rehabbing a skid trail and the benefit of it.
There is a lot of meat here if you start digging.

chainspinrunner · « **Reply #6 on:** November 15, 2009, 07:13:27 pm »

You got me beenthere! I did mean to say that "we have not gotten too in-depth". This internet thing is great and makes research almost TOO easy!

I plan on measuring skid trail area on a few tracts that the school has harvested recently. It might be tricky, might need some surveying equipment.

Good thoughts woodtroll, thanks.

woodtroll · « **Reply #7 on:** November 15, 2009, 09:23:30 pm »

Measuring skid trails should be easy. Find a gps and measure length multiply by ave width.
It can add up quickly. But keep in mind most skid trails crown over and do not remove as much ground out of long term productivity like a logging road. A skid trail may be 12' wide. Trees use that space for growth. Plus the ground disturbance often will seed in very quickly with new trees. Logging roads are wider, and even when rehabilitated they take awhile to seed in. Many times they are left for future access, removing them from your timber base.

pappy19 · « **Reply #8 on:** November 16, 2009, 11:57:27 am »

As a Forester for the USFS and also as a "Woodland Forester", same as any state service forester, I administered USFS timber sales, usually 4-5 per season. But while an Idaho Land Department Woodland Forester, I inspected 100-125 timber sales each logging season on private timber lands within all of southern Idaho. I inspected for the Idaho Forest Practices Act and 208 WQ, stream crossings, slash control, reveg, roads, etc.

In my experience I believe the worst possible situation is for skid trails to be designated as the only place to skid. When skid trails are so designated the ground is totally denuded, compacted, and becomes almost impossible to reveg unless it is ripped and scarified with a dozer. I do believe in marking where skidding CANNOT occur as in wetlands, springs, etc. Otherwise, I believe in "loggers choice" for skidding. In that experience, skidding usually is not concentrated and actually does a good job of natural vegetation coming back. Also, in using logger's choice skid trail, few or no water bars are necessary after logging is completed, while on the designated skid trails, they are manditory and many times cannnot be constructed correctly and blow out or do not function properly.

Stream protection and erosion prevention and control is a whole other education and one that is sorely needed in a forester's education. I highly recommend becoming a member of the International Erosion Control Association, and if you have a chance to attend one of their annual education seminars, you will be impressed as I was. These folks deal in real world issues, not just acedemia.

woodtroll · « **Reply #9 on:** November 16, 2009, 11:33:52 pm »

I would agree somewhat with pappy. There has been instances where skid trails were a problem and where loggers choice didn't work so well either. Some soil recovers well, others just wash away and never heal. Either way as foresters we need to see what works and what does not. As an industry we have a bad record that we are in the process of fixing and will be for awhile.

chainspinrunner · « **Reply #10 on:** November 17, 2009, 10:06:46 am »

woodtroll, After working in the woods for a few years and getting the first hand experience, this is exactly why I am interested in researching this and trying new methods!

pappy19 · « **Reply #11 on:** November 17, 2009, 10:51:16 am »

I would also say that the majority of problems associated with skid trails involve erosion control (prevention), and/or water quality issues in water bodies. What amazes me is the lack of training or education for foresters in erosion control and what information that is given out hasn't changed in 75 years. I wonder why loggers aren't better versed in the following:
1) Proper placement of culverts including correct sizes
2) velocity disapaters on the end of culverts to prevent blow outs
3) sediment retention ponds at strategic locations to keep sediment from entering water bodies
4) proper construction of water "dips" rather than water bars(that are ruined with the first 4-wheeler)
5) use of cellular confinement, bonded fiber matrix, and Re-Green, to further stablize road banks and skid trails.

I could go on and on, but the bottom line is that as a professional group, we are sorely lacking in basic erosion prevention and control education and training.

woodtroll · « **Reply #12 on:** November 18, 2009, 12:45:52 am »

I have to disagree, we as an industry (forestry and logging) has changed for the better over the last 75 years. Now those changes may have been slow, and we all can use improvement. The use of a water bar alone is an improvement from 75 years ago. Not putting jammer trails every 150' is an improvement. BMP's are another.
I do not expect my loggers to know what size culvert to put in. I expect them to put the one I calculate to work and spec for the job in. I expect them to put it in correct. The fact that culverts are being installed is an improvement.

pappy19 · « **Reply #13 on:** November 18, 2009, 05:44:54 pm »

I would have to say that most culverts are not placed or constructed properly and cause a large percentage of the problems that I used to find. Another issue for me is the wholesale use of straw bales in erosion control. It's pittiful to see straw bales out of the barn yeard as they are mostly useless as an erosion control device. Some installs using them as drop structures in gullies or intermitent streams can work, but only if the install is correct. It's a rare find to have an operator that is skilled in culvert installation, water bars (dips), and insloping with good ditches leading into a culvert. Hard to find those kind of dudes.

woodtroll · « **Reply #14 on:** November 19, 2009, 10:00:51 am »

IDL seemed pretty good at telling those contractors how to do it.

pappy19 · « **Reply #15 on:** November 19, 2009, 11:26:26 am »

May be somewhat easier for an IDL Woody to be at private timber sales in today's situation, but in the haydays of the 1970-80's Boise Cascade alone had 50-60 timber sales going then Evergreen had another 30 or so, plus gippo's, so it was nearly impossible to be at every culvert installation. Some of the best creek crossings were made from cull logs, especially if they were temporary crossings. One thing we came up with for slash in the creeks was to dynamite the greater concentrations out of the creek rather than try and use a front end attachment and drag it out. Worked great. What brought it to mind was the Idaho Fish and Game using dynamite to remove beaver dams, so we used the same technique on heavy slash that fell into the creek.

chainspinrunner · « **Reply #16 on:** December 09, 2009, 11:39:00 am »

Okay, Does anyone have a any good info about artificial regeneration of landings/trails? Hard time finding sources for this.

Ron Scott · « **Reply #17 on:** December 09, 2009, 07:37:19 pm »

http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/PUBS/for/for67/bmp02.pdf

pappy19 · « **Reply #18 on:** December 10, 2009, 08:12:40 pm »

Probably the best IMHO, and the cheapest, is to scarify the soil, broadcast a seed mix of Regreen and local pasture mix, some fertilizer but not much, and then spread clean straw either by blowing it or carefully hand spreading it. A slightly better way is to add a tacifyer to the straw to hold it on slopes. Remember to use double the pounds per acre that is generally recommended. If there is snow on the ground where you live, we used to get 98% germination by broadcasting on top of the snow in March or April just before melt by using snowmobiles. One person driving and one person turned backwards with a broadcast seeder going about 2-5 mph and spreading the seed on top of the snow. Once the seed hit the wet earth, it germinated and had enough roots to withstand the spring rains. We used this method on hundreds of miles of forest roads that needed seeding after late fall use. It works.

chainspinrunner · « **Reply #19 on:** December 13, 2009, 12:06:40 pm »

Thanks all!! Report is done and thanks to your help, it should recieve a good grade.
Thanks again forumites!

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Author Topic: Skid Trails 'R' Us (Read 2003 times)