Quarter Sawing White Oak

[Lil Badger Creek]

Scott,

No need for a drawing, I understand your great explanation. -When you mill the top 16 ". Do you get a 16" board or 2/8" baoards with your Peterson mill.

I have always wondered if after the big fire. If you had gotten you baker molder going --and how you like it. --- I'm still dreaming at this end, I still have a big house to sell and 2 building lots. Eventually they will sell.

Best regards,
Stephen 

[scsmith42]

Scott,

No need for a drawing, I understand your great explanation. -When you mill the top 16 ". Do you get a 16" board or 2/8" baoards with your Peterson mill.

I will mill as much of it vertically as possible (so that I'm obtaining QS), and will do either two 8's or a 10 and a 6.  Sometimes I'll take off a few inches as FS and then QS underneath it.

The Baker moulder is in place, and I've started ordering cutters for it, but still need to do the final wiring and dust collection.  I picked up the fuel line for the generator today.  Unfortunately I need to sit down and pull together some of the invoices for replacement tools and equipment that I've bought this year, and submit them to the insurance co for reimbursement.  I've got a lot of $ out of pocket and need to get it back!  That will probably occupy the latter half of this week.  Next week back on the generator though!

[Lil Badger Creek]

Scott,

The Baker moulder is in place, and I've started ordering cutters for it, but still need to do the final wiring and dust collection.  I picked up the fuel line for the generator today.  Unfortunately I need to sit down and pull together some of the invoices for replacement tools and equipment that I've bought this year, and submit them to the insurance co for reimbursement.  I've got a lot of $ out of pocket and need to get it back!  That will probably occupy the latter half of this week.  Next week back on the generator though!

Thanks for the details. I bet that insurance stuff seems like it will never end...documentation and more paper work. My prayers are with you. It is going to be exciting to have every thing up and going. What kind of dust collector are you using?  Is it a cyclone style?

[scsmith42]

Thanks for the details. I bet that insurance stuff seems like it will never end...documentation and more paper work. My prayers are with you. It is going to be exciting to have every thing up and going. What kind of dust collector are you using?  Is it a cyclone style?

The small system for my personal woodshop tools is a 3 hp Oneida cyclone.  The large system for the production equipment is an old 50" 25 hp Buffalo Forge blower.  The new shop has a room within it where a dump truck gets parked, and the shavings from the Buffalo are blown into the back of it.  The wall between the garage and the main shop is made up of filters, so I don't lose my conditioned air from inside the building.

[Traditional Toolworks]

1-3/16.  Quartersawn material will shrink more in thickness and less in width relative to plain sawn.

That is exactly the opposite what I would have thought...since the grain is vertical, it seems it should shrink in the width, not the thickness. I take your word for it, I don't have much experience in milling timber, just that it seems that the shrinking happens as the grain compresses together, I thought timber typically doesn't shrink on the end grain (length).

Cheers,
Alan

[Gblombo]

1-3/16.  Quartersawn material will shrink more in thickness and less in width relative to plain sawn.

That is exactly the opposite what I would have thought...since the grain is vertical, it seems it should shrink in the width, not the thickness. I take your word for it, I don't have much experience in milling timber, just that it seems that the shrinking happens as the grain compresses together, I thought timber typically doesn't shrink on the end grain (length).

Cheers,
Alan

Typically plane sawn lumber will shrink about 7-9% in width and 3-4% in thickness from the time it is dead green to KD 7%MC.  When you quarter saw lumber the numbers flip flop.

In the days prior to well controlled kilns and today's clear coat finishes you can imagine the benefit to wood working with quartersawn material.  The expansion and contractions of floors and raised panels would be much less extreme with quartersawn parts.

This is an worth considering if you are a buyer of KD QS lumber as the net board footage comes from less gross board footage  than you would ordinarily expect.

Greg

[Traditional Toolworks]

Typically plane sawn lumber will shrink about 7-9% in width and 3-4% in thickness from the time it is dead green to KD 7%MC.  When you quarter saw lumber the numbers flip flop.

This makes sense to me as the grain is neither vertical or cross.

When you say the numbers flip flop, that must be a generalized comment, as that would surely depend on the direction of the grain.

I'm confused on how the numbers could flip flop in regard to cutting quarter sawn though, if it is truly QS. I would think the shrinkage would be much less for QS as the grain is vertical, so the thickness should change very little.

This is obviously one of those situations where what looks right on paper and what happens in the real world is not the same thing.

If I had a sawmill right now I'd go cut some and wait for it to dry...then see if the numbers flip flop

Has anyone done this experiment themselves and if so, what were the results?

Cheers,
Alan

[SwampDonkey]

I thought timber typically doesn't shrink on the end grain (length).

It doesn't by much, so it's negligible.

When you say the numbers flip flop, that must be a generalized comment, as that would surely depend on the direction of the grain.

It is general because the longer the log, and the taper, limit how perfect the quartering is. Trees grow somewhat conically not cylindrically.

I'm confused on how the numbers could flip flop in regard to cutting quarter sawn though, if it is truly QS. I would think the shrinkage would be much less for QS as the grain is vertical, so the thickness should change very little.

You have to understand radial growth (pith to bark, ring thickness) and tangential within a ring in circumference of the tree. The tree is putting on cell growth in 3 directions. The longitudinal is vertical growth, the part with little shrinkage when drying. When your flat sawing your peeling off layers of growth, on the wide side. Not quite like slicing veneer since your cutting through rings because a tree doesn't grow square. If you look on the edge of the board you see a quartered appearance where you have split down through the rings. In quarter sawed you are splitting down through the rings on the wide side of the board and looking from edge to edge shows layers of growth rings. Just the opposite to flat sawed. Tangential shrinkage is more pronounced than in the radial direction. This is why it flip flops. The physical properties of wood don't change no matter how you saw it. It's an illusion if you don't understand what is going on. Shrinkage within a ring varies in relation to early wood and late wood as well. Early wood is less dense.

The only vertical grain would be on the end grain (cross sectionial view), like the end of the board. In quartering your looking across the radial growth.

I had to make a little edit.

[Traditional Toolworks]

You have to understand radial growth (pith to bark, ring thickness) and tangential within a ring in circumference of the tree. The tree is putting on cell growth in 3 directions. The longitudinal is vertical growth, the part with little shrinkage when drying. When your flat sawing your peeling off layers of growth, on the wide side. Not quite like slicing veneer since your cutting through rings because a tree doesn't grow square. If you look on the edge of the board you see a quartered appearance where you have split down through the rings. In quarter sawed you are splitting down through the rings on the wide side of the board and looking from edge to edge shows layers of growth rings. Just the opposite to flat sawed. Tangential shrinkage is more pronounced than in the radial direction. This is why it flip flops. The physical properties of wood don't change no matter how you saw it. It's an illusion if you don't understand what is going on. Shrinkage within a ring varies in relation to early wood and late wood as well. Early wood is less dense.

I don't totally understand how to correctly quarter saw a log, I guess, been trying to find that info, but see a couple different methods.

Wouldn't you try to saw across the pith from butt to tip? IOW, don't you need to quarter it based on the pith? I was thinking if you match the pith at the same height at both tip/butt, saw it, then flip and do again, one would then quarter saw the quarters, but taking each side off at a time. Is there a better method that allows this to be done without quartering the timber? As you might tell, I don't have a lot of milling experience and looking for a mill now...

Cheers,
Alan

[LeeB]

Allen, try to find the book by Bruce Hoadly called Understanding Wood. A good book to help you understand why wood does the things it does and how it is made up.

[Traditional Toolworks]

Allen, try to find the book by Bruce Hoadly called Understanding Wood. A good book to help you understand why wood does the things it does and how it is made up.

Funny, I do have that book out in the garage in a box...time to dig it out...Kids bought it for me for my b-day a number of years ago...I will dig it out...thanks for mentioning it...

[SwampDonkey]

I'd suggest the free online Wood Handbook from the USDA as a supplement, but it's quite technical. All you have to do is Google it and it'll come up. The Textbook on Wood Technology is no longer in publication, but it is referenced heavily in the Wood Handbook.

Don't matter how you slice up the log, it's going to behave as it does in relation to it's growth.

[ljmathias]

Yeah, I've come to the conclusion based on just a few years experience cutting my own lumber, that the one rule you can count on is that "wood moves."  Some moves more than others, and you can help contain it by good stickered stacks, but in the end, it does what it does.  Being a pragmatic optimist (my wife counters with pessimistic opportunist, by why quibble over words), I like what wood does and try to use the twists and bends and bows and cups- some work out pretty good, most not so much, but worth a try anyhow.  No matter what else I can say about how my carpentry and wood working projects come out, they're all mine (at least after Mother Nature is done growing 'em)....

Lj

[SwampDonkey]

I don't totally understand how to correctly quarter saw a log, I guess, been trying to find that info, but see a couple different methods.

Arkansawyer has a good tutorial on quartering if you do an "Advanced Search" under the forum "Search" menu item, goes to a new page. Go there to search "Quarter sawing" using his user name.

The idea of removing the centre of the log when preparing for sawing is because this is juvenile wood were the branches were actively growing, once they die off and the trees heals then the tree is putting on clear wood, or there could be something there feeding a dormant bud that can release to grow a branch when the tree is opened to more sun light. Juvenile wood is less stable anyhow. It's actually the oldest wood in the tree, but sometimes these forestry terms mean something opposite. The sapwood is also removed, its live wood and lighter colored in most woods where as heart wood is not live wood clear to the pith. Generally, the sapwood is mostly lost anyway by ridding the bark on the log (no not peeling it) and squaring the timber with the saw. It is also where most stain starts and where bugs like to eat. More stored tree food (sugars) there where cells can get it to remain alive. The wood rays help transport it from the cambium toward the pith.