Author Topic: Quarter Sawing White Oak (Read 5263 times)

Jim Spencer · « **on:** November 11, 2009, 10:02:22 pm »

Quarter Sawing White oak on a Logosol chainsaw mill.
What thickness would be best to saw the boards and end up with 3/4" after kiln drying and planing?
I had a 34" oak I cut down and decided to quarter saw it and found that it cuts much easier when cutting this way across the growth rings.
I cut (split) the (4) 8' logs into 4 pcs and cut boards from the bottom and rotate the piece that is left after each cut. I have cut a few thousand board ft. just slabbing but never liked cutting white oak because it is very hard but quarter sawing the cut seems to be much easier on the saw and cuts much faster.
Has anyone experienced this or is this just my imagination?
Jim

Dan_Shade · « **Reply #1 on:** November 11, 2009, 10:06:56 pm »

i would recommend at least 1 1/8" thick when green for quartersawing. anything less, you may end up shy when you plane it out.

could the easier sawing have to do with the width of the board being more narrow while quartersawing?

Gblombo · « **Reply #2 on:** November 11, 2009, 10:37:24 pm »

1-3/16. Quartersawn material will shrink more in thickness and less in width relative to plain sawn.

Have fun.

Greg

woodmills1 · « **Reply #3 on:** November 13, 2009, 06:43:11 pm »

I would say yes to the thinner widths, once you rip a big white oak log you will agree.

ladylake · « **Reply #4 on:** November 14, 2009, 05:38:01 am »

Jim If you have some nice white oak log that will QS, I'd hire a bandsaw to saw them. The extra boards over a chainsaw mill should more than pay for the sawing. QS WO fetches a good price. With a accurate bandsaw I'd saw 1" thick, I saw mine 1" and have no trouble cleaning up with the planer to just over 3/4 unless a board cups bad, then I rip in half with the table saw before planing. QS doesn't cup much either. I've QS some at 5/4 that cleaned up at a little over 1-1/16 at 6-8% moister. Steve

Dan_Shade · « **Reply #5 on:** November 14, 2009, 08:22:06 am »

I quarter-sawed a bunch of red oak at 1 1/16 when I first started milling, none of it will clean up to 3/4". It's extremely frustrating when that happens.

your mileage may vary

backwoods sawyer · « **Reply #6 on:** November 14, 2009, 06:46:09 pm »

Quote from: Dan_Shade on November 14, 2009, 08:22:06 am

I quarter-sawed a bunch of red oak at 1 1/16 when I first started milling, none of it will clean up to 3/4". It's extremely frustrating when that happens.

your mileage may vary

Wow, that is a lot for Oak. The only wood that I have had move that much is Madrone.

ladylake · « **Reply #7 on:** November 14, 2009, 07:38:52 pm »

I find QS WO to be real stable with no cupping and I don't like to make extra passes through the planer just making more shavings. Steve

Dan_Shade · « **Reply #8 on:** November 14, 2009, 10:15:04 pm »

quartersawn wood shrinks more in it's thickness than it does it's width.

I have some quartersawn red oak still rough sawn. I sawed it to 1 3/16 using woodmizer's simple setworks. checking a few boards that have been kiln dried, they are all less than 1 1/8. They mayl plane out to a full inch, but it's doubtful, they'll likely hit 15/16 when finished.

My opinion is that it's not worth the risk of having thin boards, trying to get a half board more.

As I said before, your mileage may vary. If I'm sawing good stuff for a customer, I try to get them to let me cut it to 1 1/8. scant boards are bad.

ladylake · « **Reply #9 on:** November 15, 2009, 06:02:53 am »

1-3/16 to 15/16 is 1/4" Same as 1" to 3/4" and there's less wood to shrink with 1" boards. sawing to thick just makes more planer shavings and more work. Steve

red oaks lumber · « **Reply #10 on:** November 15, 2009, 10:40:46 am »

a board that didn't cleanup, is all wasted work, wood ,energy. i always saw thicker, in case the blade dips, or make a small math error you still have mat'l to plane off.

ladylake · « **Reply #11 on:** November 15, 2009, 11:44:29 am »

If 1 board out of 50 doesn't clean up we should saw them all to thick to save that 1 board, not over here. Being a woodworker also there a lot of places to use that board that doesn't clean up. Steve

nas · « **Reply #12 on:** November 15, 2009, 07:40:16 pm »

Quote from: ladylake on November 15, 2009, 11:44:29 am

If 1 board out of 50 doesn't clean up we should saw them all to thick to save that 1 board, not over here. Being a woodworker also there a lot of places to use that board that doesn't clean up. Steve

My thoughts exactly. Are we going to loose 1 in 9 to save 1 in 50?

Nick

Dan_Shade · « **Reply #13 on:** November 15, 2009, 08:41:18 pm »

It's not 1 in 50, it was all of the ones I sawed out.

If you have good material that can be quartersawn, it is absolutely not worth the risk of having thin boards after they dry, and it can easily happen if they are only sawn an inch thick.

Draw up some circles and figure out how many boards you'll lose if you saw them thicker than an inch. If you are quartersawing, you'll probably find that you won't lose any boards if you cut the boards a bit on the thick side.

I "lost" 500bf of nice red oak quartersawn boards from a 36" diameter log. Live and learn.

To be blunt, I consider advise to saw anything thinner than 1 1/8 to be bad advice, even if flatsawn, and especially bad advise if quartersawn. I'm adamant about that with my customers. I won't do it, unless they are sheathing a barn.

Chico · « **Reply #14 on:** November 15, 2009, 10:21:19 pm »

exactly rt Dan-Shade the most exp mills in the industry allow 1/8 esp on hi grade h/w they may fudge on 2com and below if it's headed for flooring

backwoods sawyer · « **Reply #15 on:** November 16, 2009, 12:08:18 am »

Quote from: Dan_Shade on November 15, 2009, 08:41:18 pm

It's not 1 in 50, it was all of the ones I sawed out.

If you have good material that can be quartersawn, it is absolutely not worth the risk of having thin boards after they dry, and it can easily happen if they are only sawn an inch thick.

Draw up some circles and figure out how many boards you'll lose if you saw them thicker than an inch. If you are quartersawing, you'll probably find that you won't lose any boards if you cut the boards a bit on the thick side.

I "lost" 500bf of nice red oak quartersawn boards from a 36" diameter log. Live and learn.

To be blunt, I consider advise to saw anything thinner than 1 1/8 to be bad advice, even if flatsawn, and especially bad advise if quartersawn. I'm adamant about that with my customers. I won't do it, unless they are sheathing a barn.

You seem pretty adamant about that.
I am not real certain as to why though. If the customer is using the wood for his own use and is willing to work with ¾”-13/16”-7/8”-or 15/16” as a finished size, then why would you insist on milling 1 1/8”?
That is unless he is selling the wood commercially in which case of coarse you would mill to the industry standard.

scsmith42 · « **Reply #16 on:** November 16, 2009, 12:17:35 am »

Interesting comments from across the US.

Like Dan, I mill to 5/4 on quartersawn, and a lot of it has to go to 3/4" when going through the jointer/planer. If I were simply double planing, I could get a thicker board out of it.

80% of my board widths are 10" or wider, and I prefer not to resaw it into narrower boards. For my ultra-wide QS boards (16" - 20"), I'm thinking of milling to 6/4 in order to make sure that they will joint/plane out to 3/4" or 7/8".

ladylake · « **Reply #17 on:** November 16, 2009, 04:35:28 am »

6/4 to 3/4. you got to be kidding, I was brought up not to waste and unless you can get as much for planer shaving as you can get for QS WO boards that's all your doing. I've sawn everything for years at 1" that gets planed to 13/16 or 3/4 with no complaints including a flooring company that said maybe 1 out of 50 don't clean up on part of a board. Never has a customer call back and say they were sawed to thin. I can see if your cutting wavy where you would want to saw thicker or for a commercial outfit that demanded it. I've even sold a few loads to a commercial door company that let me saw at 1" with a band saw if they were uniform and straight . Steve

Magicman · « **Reply #18 on:** November 16, 2009, 07:43:14 am »

I saw what the customer ask for. Wider boards are sometimes sawed thicker if they think that it may cup. Even then, the customer makes the decision.

Dan_Shade · « **Reply #19 on:** November 16, 2009, 10:37:08 am »

I've never had a customer bulk when I explained my reasoning to him.

At the end of the day, they're paying the bill, so I do what they want. But I certainly don't want an unhappy customer a year from now with a board that cleans up to 11/16 because I cut it too thin.

solidwoods · « **Reply #20 on:** November 16, 2009, 11:23:20 am »

1" thick green and it planed out to over 3/4"? WOW.
If you wood work, the jointer is typically the first tool you start out with.
It flattens the board, then you go to the planer to make thickness.
So 1" green doesn't allow for flattening.
(planers do not flatten boards, they make them thinner)

I mill 1 1/8" on the mill scale which makes a half kerf less than 1 1/8".
All cuts. Since 92. But any/any bit off and you'll be close to make 3/4" finished thickness.
I've tried 1" on the mill scale and "no way can I get 3/4" finished product.

Leave splitting hairs to crime investigators.

Now chain saw milling is a different critter, the surface will be rougher than a band so you should compensate for that.

Ditto on get a band mill to cut qtr sawn. just do the kerf loss to bf. yield math.
CSM's are better suited to thicker cuts do to the kerf loss.
Stay in touch with band millers in your area, some may need your services to cut a big log to fit their mill (I wish I knew of one local).

Qtr sawns big dry defect is side bend, so plan widths accordingly.
jim

red oaks lumber · « **Reply #21 on:** November 16, 2009, 01:14:25 pm »

iv'e planed about 5 million b.f. of mat'l sawn by small bandmills in the past 10yrs. most was sawn to thin, if you saw 1" green, it will dry to maybe 7/8. if we are making floor or wall paneling at 3/4 thick and you have spots that don't cleanup, who's reputation is on the line , not the guy that sawed, but me because we are the last one to handle the wood.
i don't care how you saw your personal wood but, if your sawing for someone else you need to think about the next operation, thats just doing your job correctly. of the 5 million b.f. i planed from the small bandmills, maybe 10% was what i would consider sawed ok.
thicker is better

Dodgy Loner · « **Reply #22 on:** November 16, 2009, 01:49:31 pm »

I'll throw in my two cents. I quartersaw oak to 1 1/16" thick (that's the actual thickness) and every board will clean up to 13/16" thick after drying. Heck, last year I sawed up about 1400 b.f. of flatsawn pine, 12" wide and 10' long, using the 1" scale, which left all the boards somewhere between 7/8 and 15/16. Maybe 1 in 10 boards didn't plane out to 3/4" and the ones that were a little shy didn't matter because I was using it for wall paneling. I just put the clean side facing out and no one will ever know the difference.

I think all this talk of sawing 1 3/16 or 5/4 lumber to plane out 3/4" is just nuts. But then again, I'm not sawing for a commercial customer so the risks aren't as great if something doesn't work out like I planned. Still seems like a waste to me. Since when is 3/4" the only thickness of lumber that is considered usable?

backwoods sawyer · « **Reply #23 on:** November 16, 2009, 06:56:41 pm »

In reading all of the post I am seeing that some are referring to sawing to 1” scale and 1 1/4'” scale, verses actual thicknesses. With the accuset and accuset 2 the kerf is calculated in before the cut is made so you are cutting a full 1” verses 13/16”. It may be that this whole discussion is based on two different measuring methods.

ladylake · « **Reply #24 on:** November 16, 2009, 07:35:23 pm »

My mill when set on 1" drops down 1-1/16 to allow for the saw kerf. The boards end up at just a hair over 1" maybe 1- 1/32" . Steve

Chico · « **Reply #25 on:** November 16, 2009, 08:34:26 pm »

I didn't see anyone saying take a 6/4 bd and dress it to 3/4 one sAID 5/4 MOST LIKE MYSEL SF1 1/8 WHICH IS STOCK THICKNESS IN SAWING YOU CAN GET BY WITH LESS FOR YOURSELF BUT AS dQAN SAID i 1/8 FOR SELLING TO A CUSTOMER If you were true qtr sawing you would want it just a little heavier than 1/1/8 but bastard qtring you can get away with 1 1/8

ohsoloco · « **Reply #26 on:** November 16, 2009, 10:32:32 pm »

When I mill, my boards are usually around 1-1/16" off the mill. With QS white oak I get quite a few boards that BARELY clean up to 3/4"...that's cutting the board to size, jointing one face flat, and then running through the thickness planer.

ladylake · « **Reply #27 on:** November 17, 2009, 03:55:57 am »

Quote from: Chico on November 16, 2009, 08:34:26 pm

I didn't see anyone saying take a 6/4 bd and dress it to 3/4 one sAID 5/4 MOST LIKE MYSEL SF1 1/8 WHICH IS STOCK THICKNESS IN SAWING YOU CAN GET BY WITH LESS FOR YOURSELF BUT AS dQAN SAID i 1/8 FOR SELLING TO A CUSTOMER If you were true qtr sawing you would want it just a little heavier than 1/1/8 but bastard qtring you can get away with 1 1/8

Read the end of post No 16 6/4 to make sure it will clean up at 3/4. We have guys on here saying it won't clean up from 1" to 3/4 but it will from 1-3/16 to 15/16 , that's both 1/4 inch. One says it shrinks from 1" to 7/8" so a board cut to 8" would shrink to 7" when in fact it might shrink to 7-1/2 at worst. A lot of these numbers don't add up to me and having had my lumber sawed at 1" for years and now sawing it myself a 1" with not many boards that don't clean up to just a little over 3/4" I'll keep sawing it at 1" and advising my customers that 1-1/8 just makes a lot of shavings. I'll saw what ever size they say but have never had one insist on 1-1/8 yet. Some want 5/4 for table tops and that's what they get. I don't know if this makes a difference but I air dry my lumber to 12% then kiln dry to 6 or 7% , maybe it doesn't shrink as much that way. Steve

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #28 on:** November 17, 2009, 04:58:02 am »

A good rule of thumb would be to allow 1/16" in shrinkage for every 2" in dimension. I'm basing that on 20 % MC. If you go down to 8% than you loose 5/64th in dimension for every 2" in width and 3/8" for every 2" in thickness. Talking quarter sawn white oak as per topic. Of course the law of averages applies here. Using the Wood Handbook empirical shrinkage values, and calculating dimensional change based on change from green (FSP) to lower MC's. The handbook can be confusing if you don't have some knowledge on how to do the calculations. You could read the whole darn section on shrinkage and still be in the fog. The problem is parts of what you want to know are scattered all over the place.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #29 on:** November 17, 2009, 05:17:03 am »

Quote from: ladylake on November 17, 2009, 03:55:57 am

I don't know if this makes a difference but I air dry my lumber to 12% then kiln dry to 6 or 7% , maybe it doesn't shrink as much that way. Steve

No difference, accept when your talking seasonal change in moisture. The greatest shrinkage happens in the first cycle of drying, simply because the wood probably isn't going to go in green condition again unless it's submerged. Wood shrinks when water is lost from cell walls (bound water), not from within the cell cavities (free water). This threshold varies and as a rule a thumb considered to be at 30 % MC, known as fibre saturation point or green condition. Above that no dimensional change and still green, below that, shrinkage.

DR_Buck · « **Reply #30 on:** November 17, 2009, 10:52:24 pm »

Quarter saw'n definitely shrinks a lot in thickness. I have almost a 1000 bf of QS white oak out of the kiln that won't clean up at 3/4" because it was all sawn at 1 1/16".

Now for my own use I saw EVERYTHING at 5/4 if it's going to be planed on both sides to a finished surface. I also recommend 5/4 to my customers for the same reason.

Chico · « **Reply #31 on:** November 18, 2009, 02:10:42 am »

Ladylake I still read 5/4 just like I did the first time and the measurements he was using really wasn't 5/4 but 1/16 heavy 4/4 $:-\$ and that was an observation not accusation I've sawn millions of bdft both flat and true qtr and have always sawed 1 1/8 your not going to lose any footage and you won't have probs with skip dressing jmo

scsmith42 · « **Reply #32 on:** November 19, 2009, 08:50:55 pm »

I'm going to clarify my comments a bit because my situation is somewhat unique.

Almost everything that I mill is quartersawn oak. With my swingblade mill, I can saw logs up to 60" in diameter, and I seek out all of the 40"+ logs that I can. I spend a lot of extra time seeking maximum width yield when I mill, due to how rare extremely large diameter logs are.

My goal is to produce the widest possible quartersawn oak boards. At present, I have a good number of 16" - 20" wide pure QSWO boards in my kiln that came from a 50" WO log. As we're all aware, QSWO boards that width are just about unheard of due to the scarcity of logs and difficulty handling and milling.

I currently mill everything to 5/4, because 4/4 QSO will not joint / plane out to 3/4, which is the minimum that most customers want.

My comment about milling to 6/4 is only applicable to the extremely wide boards, and that is solely so that I can joint / plane them out to make at least 3/4, if not 7/8" or 1".

The challenge is with the wood movement and the quality of the log. Because 50" diameter oak logs are not a commodity, I have to make do with what the log can give me. This means that there is an occasional defect in an ultra wide board, which tends to distort somewhat when in the kiln. Depending upon the board, I'd rather leave the board wide, and have 90% of the length at full width, than edge off a defect that - although it causes distortion during drying - it still allows me to recoup full width on the rest of the board. On an ultra wide board, it does not take a lot of distortion across the board to prevent them from jointing out during the post-drying process.

When you use a jointer/planer, as opposed to a double planer, it costs you a bit of wood thickness but yields a flatter end product.

If I mill a 16"+ board and can sell it for 2X to 3X per bd ft what a 10" wide board sells for - (because it will clean up to 3/4 across the entire length and face,) it seems to me that it makes business sense to generate some extra shavings in order to produce a higher profit product.

If I were only milling 8" - 12" wide QS boards, I would stick with 5/4 or perhaps even 1-3/16".

Make sense?

Lil Badger Creek · « **Reply #33 on:** November 28, 2009, 01:23:39 pm »

Wow, Scott,

Yes it makes perfect sense. What a great niche you are creating. I always enjoy reading about your well thought out ideas and business savvy.

I would love to hear about your method of opening up one of those big boy logs with your swing mill to quarter saw it. Do you need to start out with narrower boards till you get it open enough to double cut it? I bet those wide board are beauties!
Stephen

scsmith42 · « **Reply #34 on:** November 28, 2009, 05:24:01 pm »

Stephen,

Thanks for the kind words. You're right - the wide QS boards can be absolutely incredible.

Re milling very large logs with my Peterson, as an example we'll "mill" a long that is 50" in diameter on the small end.

Typically I study the grain layout to determine where my best opportunities for wide boards are. I'll lay out the log so that the heart is centered in-between the rails (usually within 1/2") as well as equidastant above the rails on each end of the log. I use a straightedge in-between the rails to measure from. Centering the heart sacrifices some wood, but provides me with the greatest volume and quality of QS.

I will mark out a square around the heart - usually either a 6 x 6, in order to capture all of the pith wood.

Next, I'll mill the top 1/3 of the log, or top 16". Usually I will quarter part of it in a vertical cut, and take the rest as rift. I will mill it all of the way across, leaving a flat top (that will be around 36" across).

So now I have 2/3 of a log left (32 deep") with a 36"ish flat surface on top. Depending upon how much QS that I can get from this third, I may make a vertical cut that will align with one side of the 6 x 6 boxed heart.

Next, I flip the log so that the flat side is down. I'll measure off of one of the rails and shift the log to obtain the same equidistant spacing to the vertical cut that I referenced above. I'll mill off the top 1/3 of the log again, same as mentioned above. This leaves me with a quasi rectangular section of log that is about 16" thick (1/3 of 50" diameter) and 50" wide in the middle.

I'll make another vertical cut, to intersect the one now coming up from the bottom, and remove one side of the remaining log and set it into a second set of bunks. I'll take out some 5/4 x 6"s above the boxed heart, as well as the 6 x 6 boxed heart, and then some more 4/4 x 6's below the boxed heart. I can now double cut both remaining sections, which allows me to recover at least 50% of the total potential QS in the log as up to 20" wide pure QS boards.

On a 50" log, if the heart is perfectly centered by the time that we remove the sapwood and a 6 x 6 out of the middle, I can usually recover some 18" - 20" wide boards.

If this is hard to follow, let me know and I'll post some simple drawings.

Regards,

Scott

Chico · « **Reply #35 on:** November 29, 2009, 12:12:24 am »

LadyLake 1 3/16 is heavy 4/45 5/4 standard ids 13/8 6/4 is 1 5/8not including kerf

fat olde elf · « **Reply #36 on:** November 29, 2009, 03:23:23 am »

5/4.................no question about it.

ladylake · « **Reply #37 on:** November 29, 2009, 05:28:51 am »

Just restacked some 5/4 QS WO cleaned up over 1-1/16 at 10* moister. Guess my wood up here doesn't shrink as much or it's cut straighter or I'm more careful planing. Steve

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #38 on:** November 29, 2009, 11:10:25 am »

I would think maybe 1" at best, but at 8%, as I mentioned earlier, it would shrink to 1-1/16 which of course is dryer. But, to get to where your at, I think the answer lies in the MC % of your logs when milling. Might not be green, but maybe 24 % or less (just a number I'm tossing out there) when milling. Makes a difference in the expected shrinkage. Possible? Of course, my figures are based on weighted averages for the whole shooting match of white oak species, except live oak.

ladylake · « **Reply #39 on:** November 29, 2009, 11:40:58 am »

It could be the logs, most are not real green when I saw them. Steve

Lil Badger Creek · « **Reply #40 on:** November 29, 2009, 10:37:34 pm »

Scott,

No need for a drawing, I understand your great explanation. -When you mill the top 16 ". Do you get a 16" board or 2/8" baoards with your Peterson mill.

I have always wondered if after the big fire. If you had gotten you baker molder going --and how you like it. --- I'm still dreaming at this end, I still have a big house to sell and 2 building lots. Eventually they will sell.

Best regards,
Stephen

scsmith42 · « **Reply #41 on:** November 30, 2009, 08:56:53 pm »

Quote from: Lil Badger Creek on November 29, 2009, 10:37:34 pm

Scott,

No need for a drawing, I understand your great explanation. -When you mill the top 16 ". Do you get a 16" board or 2/8" baoards with your Peterson mill.

I will mill as much of it vertically as possible (so that I'm obtaining QS), and will do either two 8's or a 10 and a 6. Sometimes I'll take off a few inches as FS and then QS underneath it.

The Baker moulder is in place, and I've started ordering cutters for it, but still need to do the final wiring and dust collection. I picked up the fuel line for the generator today. Unfortunately I need to sit down and pull together some of the invoices for replacement tools and equipment that I've bought this year, and submit them to the insurance co for reimbursement. I've got a lot of $ out of pocket and need to get it back! That will probably occupy the latter half of this week. Next week back on the generator though!

Lil Badger Creek · « **Reply #42 on:** December 01, 2009, 11:34:40 pm »

Quote from: scsmith42 on November 30, 2009, 08:56:53 pm

Quote from: Lil Badger Creek on November 29, 2009, 10:37:34 pm
Scott,

The Baker moulder is in place, and I've started ordering cutters for it, but still need to do the final wiring and dust collection. I picked up the fuel line for the generator today. Unfortunately I need to sit down and pull together some of the invoices for replacement tools and equipment that I've bought this year, and submit them to the insurance co for reimbursement. I've got a lot of $ out of pocket and need to get it back! That will probably occupy the latter half of this week. Next week back on the generator though!

Thanks for the details. I bet that insurance stuff seems like it will never end...documentation and more paper work. My prayers are with you. It is going to be exciting to have every thing up and going. What kind of dust collector are you using? Is it a cyclone style?

scsmith42 · « **Reply #43 on:** December 02, 2009, 10:03:51 am »

Quote from: Lil Badger Creek on December 01, 2009, 11:34:40 pm

Thanks for the details. I bet that insurance stuff seems like it will never end...documentation and more paper work. My prayers are with you. It is going to be exciting to have every thing up and going. What kind of dust collector are you using? Is it a cyclone style?

The small system for my personal woodshop tools is a 3 hp Oneida cyclone. The large system for the production equipment is an old 50" 25 hp Buffalo Forge blower. The new shop has a room within it where a dump truck gets parked, and the shavings from the Buffalo are blown into the back of it. The wall between the garage and the main shop is made up of filters, so I don't lose my conditioned air from inside the building.

Traditional Toolworks · « **Reply #44 on:** December 02, 2009, 03:32:46 pm »

Quote from: Gblombo on November 11, 2009, 10:37:24 pm

1-3/16. Quartersawn material will shrink more in thickness and less in width relative to plain sawn.

That is exactly the opposite what I would have thought...since the grain is vertical, it seems it should shrink in the width, not the thickness. I take your word for it, I don't have much experience in milling timber, just that it seems that the shrinking happens as the grain compresses together, I thought timber typically doesn't shrink on the end grain (length).

Cheers,
Alan

Gblombo · « **Reply #45 on:** December 02, 2009, 04:27:37 pm »

Quote from: Traditional Toolworks on December 02, 2009, 03:32:46 pm

Quote from: Gblombo on November 11, 2009, 10:37:24 pm
1-3/16. Quartersawn material will shrink more in thickness and less in width relative to plain sawn.
That is exactly the opposite what I would have thought...since the grain is vertical, it seems it should shrink in the width, not the thickness. I take your word for it, I don't have much experience in milling timber, just that it seems that the shrinking happens as the grain compresses together, I thought timber typically doesn't shrink on the end grain (length).

Cheers,
Alan

Typically plane sawn lumber will shrink about 7-9% in width and 3-4% in thickness from the time it is dead green to KD 7%MC. When you quarter saw lumber the numbers flip flop.

In the days prior to well controlled kilns and today's clear coat finishes you can imagine the benefit to wood working with quartersawn material. The expansion and contractions of floors and raised panels would be much less extreme with quartersawn parts.

This is an worth considering if you are a buyer of KD QS lumber as the net board footage comes from less gross board footage than you would ordinarily expect.

Greg

Traditional Toolworks · « **Reply #46 on:** December 02, 2009, 04:43:54 pm »

Quote from: Gblombo on December 02, 2009, 04:27:37 pm

Typically plane sawn lumber will shrink about 7-9% in width and 3-4% in thickness from the time it is dead green to KD 7%MC. When you quarter saw lumber the numbers flip flop.

This makes sense to me as the grain is neither vertical or cross.

When you say the numbers flip flop, that must be a generalized comment, as that would surely depend on the direction of the grain.

I'm confused on how the numbers could flip flop in regard to cutting quarter sawn though, if it is truly QS. I would think the shrinkage would be much less for QS as the grain is vertical, so the thickness should change very little.

This is obviously one of those situations where what looks right on paper and what happens in the real world is not the same thing.

If I had a sawmill right now I'd go cut some and wait for it to dry...then see if the numbers flip flop

Has anyone done this experiment themselves and if so, what were the results?

Cheers,
Alan

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #47 on:** December 02, 2009, 05:15:45 pm »

Quote from: Traditional Toolworks on December 02, 2009, 03:32:46 pm

I thought timber typically doesn't shrink on the end grain (length).

It doesn't by much, so it's negligible.

Quote from: Traditional Toolworks on December 02, 2009, 04:43:54 pm

When you say the numbers flip flop, that must be a generalized comment, as that would surely depend on the direction of the grain.

It is general because the longer the log, and the taper, limit how perfect the quartering is. Trees grow somewhat conically not cylindrically.

Quote

I'm confused on how the numbers could flip flop in regard to cutting quarter sawn though, if it is truly QS. I would think the shrinkage would be much less for QS as the grain is vertical, so the thickness should change very little.

You have to understand radial growth (pith to bark, ring thickness) and tangential within a ring in circumference of the tree. The tree is putting on cell growth in 3 directions. The longitudinal is vertical growth, the part with little shrinkage when drying. When your flat sawing your peeling off layers of growth, on the wide side. Not quite like slicing veneer since your cutting through rings because a tree doesn't grow square. If you look on the edge of the board you see a quartered appearance where you have split down through the rings. In quarter sawed you are splitting down through the rings on the wide side of the board and looking from edge to edge shows layers of growth rings. Just the opposite to flat sawed. Tangential shrinkage is more pronounced than in the radial direction. This is why it flip flops. The physical properties of wood don't change no matter how you saw it. It's an illusion if you don't understand what is going on.

Shrinkage within a ring varies in relation to early wood and late wood as well. Early wood is less dense.

The only vertical grain would be on the end grain (cross sectionial view), like the end of the board. In quartering your looking across the radial growth.

I had to make a little edit.

Traditional Toolworks · « **Reply #48 on:** December 03, 2009, 06:44:50 am »

Quote from: SwampDonkey on December 02, 2009, 05:15:45 pm

You have to understand radial growth (pith to bark, ring thickness) and tangential within a ring in circumference of the tree. The tree is putting on cell growth in 3 directions. The longitudinal is vertical growth, the part with little shrinkage when drying. When your flat sawing your peeling off layers of growth, on the wide side. Not quite like slicing veneer since your cutting through rings because a tree doesn't grow square. If you look on the edge of the board you see a quartered appearance where you have split down through the rings. In quarter sawed you are splitting down through the rings on the wide side of the board and looking from edge to edge shows layers of growth rings. Just the opposite to flat sawed. Tangential shrinkage is more pronounced than in the radial direction. This is why it flip flops. The physical properties of wood don't change no matter how you saw it. It's an illusion if you don't understand what is going on. Shrinkage within a ring varies in relation to early wood and late wood as well. Early wood is less dense.

I don't totally understand how to correctly quarter saw a log, I guess, been trying to find that info, but see a couple different methods.

Wouldn't you try to saw across the pith from butt to tip? IOW, don't you need to quarter it based on the pith? I was thinking if you match the pith at the same height at both tip/butt, saw it, then flip and do again, one would then quarter saw the quarters, but taking each side off at a time. Is there a better method that allows this to be done without quartering the timber? As you might tell, I don't have a lot of milling experience and looking for a mill now...

Cheers,
Alan

LeeB · « **Reply #49 on:** December 03, 2009, 08:55:41 am »

Allen, try to find the book by Bruce Hoadly called Understanding Wood. A good book to help you understand why wood does the things it does and how it is made up.

Traditional Toolworks · « **Reply #50 on:** December 03, 2009, 09:59:36 am »

Quote from: LeeB on December 03, 2009, 08:55:41 am

Allen, try to find the book by Bruce Hoadly called Understanding Wood. A good book to help you understand why wood does the things it does and how it is made up.

Funny, I do have that book out in the garage in a box...time to dig it out...Kids bought it for me for my b-day a number of years ago...I will dig it out...thanks for mentioning it...

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #51 on:** December 03, 2009, 11:42:54 am »

I'd suggest the free online Wood Handbook from the USDA as a supplement, but it's quite technical. All you have to do is Google it and it'll come up. The Textbook on Wood Technology is no longer in publication, but it is referenced heavily in the Wood Handbook.

Don't matter how you slice up the log, it's going to behave as it does in relation to it's growth.

ljmathias · « **Reply #52 on:** December 03, 2009, 01:43:47 pm »

Yeah, I've come to the conclusion based on just a few years experience cutting my own lumber, that the one rule you can count on is that "wood moves." Some moves more than others, and you can help contain it by good stickered stacks, but in the end, it does what it does. Being a pragmatic optimist (my wife counters with pessimistic opportunist, by why quibble over words), I like what wood does and try to use the twists and bends and bows and cups- some work out pretty good, most not so much, but worth a try anyhow. No matter what else I can say about how my carpentry and wood working projects come out, they're all mine (at least after Mother Nature is done growing 'em)....

Lj

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #53 on:** December 03, 2009, 05:08:31 pm »

Quote from: Traditional Toolworks on December 03, 2009, 06:44:50 am

I don't totally understand how to correctly quarter saw a log, I guess, been trying to find that info, but see a couple different methods.

Arkansawyer has a good tutorial on quartering if you do an "Advanced Search" under the forum "Search" menu item, goes to a new page. Go there to search "Quarter sawing" using his user name.

The idea of removing the centre of the log when preparing for sawing is because this is juvenile wood were the branches were actively growing, once they die off and the trees heals then the tree is putting on clear wood, or there could be something there feeding a dormant bud that can release to grow a branch when the tree is opened to more sun light. Juvenile wood is less stable anyhow. It's actually the oldest wood in the tree, but sometimes these forestry terms mean something opposite.

The sapwood is also removed, its live wood and lighter colored in most woods where as heart wood is not live wood clear to the pith. Generally, the sapwood is mostly lost anyway by ridding the bark on the log (no not peeling it) and squaring the timber with the saw. It is also where most stain starts and where bugs like to eat. More stored tree food (sugars) there where cells can get it to remain alive. The wood rays help transport it from the cambium toward the pith.

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