steam engines

[red oaks lumber]

want to hookup steam engine to 150 kvw generator. any leads on finding a source for the s. engine would be greatly appreciated.
 thanks, steve

[zopi]

Google it...there are some old engine clubs and organizations around who could prolly help...I love steam engines, just don't have time or moneyto fool with them...maybe when I get too old and broke to do much else i'l build little ones to play with.

[Woodwalker]

I'm interested in steam also, but the thing is a 150Kw generator is gonna take a good size power plant.

[zopi]

yeah...not gonna do the math but a better solution might be a diesel power unit...see 'em on sawmill exchange every so often.

[red oaks lumber]

from what if found, steam is 25 times stronger than diesel. so i'm thinking a 10 hp steam engine would be strong enough. going with a reg. generator (diesel) would cost the same as using elec. from the grid

[fishpharmer]

Red Oaks, I missed this again this year.  Bet some of the exhibitors could give you a lead.  You might try contacting the organizers to get some contacts. Soule used to make steam engines here in Meridian.

http://www.soulelivesteam.com/

A quote from the above website.....
"Soule', when in full operation, was able to produce one Spee-D-Twin steam engine per day. A total of 4,301 units were built. The museum owns the last steam engine built. Steam engine number 4300 was sold in 1996 to James M. Wills of Perkinston, Miss."

Here is a link with pictures from last year.  After looking through these I really hate I missed it.

http://www.glimpsesofmeridian.com/gom-4.html

Woodmizer is even represented in a pic near the bottom. 

Hope this entertains if not helps.

Next year if anyone wants to come see the festival give me a pm. I will be there.

[Stan snider]

Red Oaks:  The formula to calculate horsepower in a rotary motion is torque(in footpounds)X  RPM divided by5252.  The torque on a steam engine of the same Hp as a diesel will be much higher but the rpm's will be much lower.   I think a Hp translates to 746 watts electrical energy.    150 kw translates to a shade over 200 Hp if my line of calculation is correct.                                                                                                   I guess the moral of this is free lunches are hard to get.  I checked on a boiler system once and high pressure systems are large,heavy, expensive and require some consistent maintenance by licensed professionals, water treatment and will raise your insurance A LOT.                                                                                                         If steam doesn't work out  keep trying.   We all keep trying to find a better way to do whatever it is we do anyway. Its called Capitalism.  I like it.  Stan

[Brucer]

Red Oaks:  The formula to calculate horsepower in a rotary motion is torque(in footpounds)X  RPM divided by5252.  The torque on a steam engine of the same Hp as a diesel will be much higher but the rpm's will be much lower.   I think a Hp translates to 746 watts electrical energy.    150 kw translates to a shade over 200 Hp if my line of calculation is correct.

Yep, bang on, Stan. You won't be getting 100% conversion, so the actual HP will be higher.

And as you said, high pressure is an issue. All sorts of rules and regulations regarding pressure vessels (generally anything over 15 PSI). The rules are annoying, but they're there for a good reason -- a couple of centuries of disastrous explosions.

Interestingly enough, the very first "steam engines" were actually vacuum engines. Low pressure steam was used to fill a giant cylinder with a piston at the top. The steam inlet valve was closed and cold water was sprayed into the cylinder. This condensed the steam creating a partial vacuum. Air pressure forced the piston down. The piston was connected to a rocking beam and used to lift water out of the adjacent mine.

Vacuum engines were very safe because nothing was under pressure. When someone first pointed out that a steam engine using pressurized steam would be much more powerful, the engineers of the day thought it would be suicidal to build such a contraption.

[Ron Wenrich]

from what if found, steam is 25 times stronger than diesel. so i'm thinking a 10 hp steam engine would be strong enough. going with a reg. generator (diesel) would cost the same as using elec. from the grid

We found that producing power from a diesel to be cheaper than from the grid.  We have 3 phase run right past our mill.  Hookup would have been at least $100k after all the transformers and the like were put in place and the lines were run.  That was 15 years ago.

There would also be a monthly charge whether we used that much juice or not.  Our pencil said it was cheaper to go with the diesel unit.  We were also fortunate enough to lock in prices for 6 months at a time.  When there were high spikes in price, ours stayed lower. 

And, our electric rates have been made artificially low due to deregulation.  Those prices are going to go way up this year.

I don't know of too many mills that have used steam to make electricity.  Those that do have a use for the process steam.  If you could go into co-generation, then you have a better shot at doing things. 

[zopi]

I wish the EPA would pull their heads out about the high efficiency diesels being used in Europe..different subject perhaps, but the technology still applies...

[logwalker]

Here is a link to the last commercial mill run with steam. It is south of Corvallis Oregon and they give free tours most any day of the week except the weekends. The link is very picture heavy. They cut timbers to 85'.

http://www.garymkatz.com/OnTheRoad/HullOaks.htm

[fishpharmer]

Logwalker, nice link.  In enjoyed seeing the pictures and reading the captains.

[stonebroke]

What did the guy do with that steam engine in 1995? Did he buy it to collect or to actually use?

Stonebroke

[bandmiller2]

Red Oaks, the big bugaboo with steam is the boiler and legalities of its management,most states have licence and insurance requirements.You have to ether go all the way or keep it out of sight and play dumb.The bigger the engine and boiler the easier and cheaper ,everyone wants the little cutsey ones.It takes alot of scearching and the good ole boy network,guys involved in steam know where everything is.Look for old factories with big stacks,many times they still have the old machinery because its just too hard to remove.Steam generation is simple but requires constant supervision and management and is best done with a large plant and duty firemen.Probibly makes more scence to make a wood gas gen. and run an old generator with that.Sorry to be a wet blanket.Frank C.

[fishpharmer]

What did the guy do with that steam engine in 1995? Did he buy it to collect or to actually use?

Stonebroke

You mean the Soule' ?  I really don't know.  Maybe ole Tim Garrison of WM fame has it.  He has alot of antique stuff. Perkinston, MS  ain't a real populated area.  He might know who has it. 

[red oaks lumber]

ok, maybe steam is not happening. but i'm not giving up on having another option for elec.
 once the senate passes cap and trade hold on to your lug nuts! cost of elect. will go up faster than a ladies dress on a windy day..
 thanks for the help everyone

[bandmiller2]

Red Oaks,don't give up on steam.If you use alot of elect. say for a mill or to run machinery,you could have a steam generator,use it when your working the machinery.Off hours or at night drop the boiler pressure and use it to heat your house and shop.When your asleep or away depend on the grid,really elect. is a bargan for what you get.Steam is good power if you have fuel at little or no cost.I ran a circular mill with steam [real pain in the winter] and a shingle mill with a gear reduction turbine.At one time I had a 110v DC power unit out of a tug boat,a Troy verticle engine coupled to the gen. on a cast iron base.Steam is a way of life with only the romance remembered today,not the danger ,hot ,heavy ,dirty work.Steam beats a mule,diesel beats steam,and the grid whoops them all.Red , the stuff is out there if you set up a modern boiler with a dutch oven to burn wood and waste and locate a small turbine or recip. engine you can have alot of fun read old engineering books Audels and the Croft power plant series are good,be carefull steam can kill.Frank C.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Steam Turbines---Elliott Co--Jeanette Pa. 5 HP and up to LOTS of HP.

  Also found info on 2 cylinder Compound Steam marine engines.  Price listed around $2250.00 or so   Shouldn't be all that high of pressure, to use on 20-25 foot boats

  My Dad had one, that you could pick up and carry around. It come out of a 22' boat, and could push that boat at 20 MPH

[mad murdock]

http://www.mikebrownsolutions.com/20hpse.htm
this is a pretty neat engine.  It is rated at 20HP.  Similar in design to this engine http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/TRANSPORT/steamplane/steamplane.htm
Here is a link to a 1930's TravelAir 2000 airplane refitted with a steam engine, developed by the Besler brothers, and the boiler was developed by Doble, or Doble Brothers steam automobile fame.  The US Navy actually built a follow on engine/boiler system to evaluate in a flying testbed in the mid 1950's and published a report that has photos and drawings, which you can download on one of the sites that has the Besler plane on it.  I have been fascinated with steam engines since childhood, and like Mr. Brown, think that the Rankine Cycle has much more potential to provide cheap power than the Otto Cycle, especially when considering the advances in metalurgy, and electronic technology these days.

[mad murdock]

the Cyclone radial steam engine is another interesting critter, may have some possibilities in the future?
http://www.cyclonepower.com/technical_information2.html

[mad murdock]

ok, maybe steam is not happening. but i'm not giving up on having another option for elec.
 once the senate passes cap and trade hold on to your lug nuts! cost of elect. will go up faster than a ladies dress on a windy day..
 thanks for the help everyone

[mad murdock]

ok, maybe steam is not happening. but i'm not giving up on having another option for elec.
 once the senate passes cap and trade hold on to your lug nuts! cost of elect. will go up faster than a ladies dress on a windy day..
 thanks for the help everyone

Red Oaks, I grew up ner Eagle River, Wisc. there used to be a mill outside of town ran by the Swanson Brothers that ran on steam.  I haven't been back in the N. Woods for years, don't know if there is anything left of it.
Used to be a lot of old guys in Forest Co. that had old mill equipment out in the back '40 just rusting away, maybe there is still some of that old stuff left, that is worth restoring?

[mad murdock]

Any pics of anyone on the forum or otherwise who have powered up with steam? 

[Paul_H]

The town of Westwold BC, 40 minutes from us hosts a steam show in October.I had never heard of it until yesterday at the shop when a customer told me about it.
The show is hosted by the Pringle family and I wish I had more info on this family because the show is 1st class.

Here are some pics of the event.The first two pics aren't steam power but the rest are with the exception(I think) of the Pumpkin cannon

Belt driven planer-
 






This boiler is fired up and running the sawmill that had a full crew milling up lumber.There was a steam fired sash saw as well but the camera ran out of memory.

 



 





Steam fired shingle mill





Driven by this






And there was a Steam donkey...





The smells were wonderfull with gunpowder from the black powder guys,the creosote smell of the woodfred boilers along with sawdust from pine and cedar freshly milled,and food cooking and the crisp autumn air.
The sounds of the steam engines,mills and gunfire were enjoyable too.

I'll post more later.

[Okrafarmer]

steam power may not be cost-efficient today, but if there ever were a serious time of trouble in your area with total grid failure and no transportation of goods (or at least not affordable), and you had to live 19th century style for a long period of time, you would be very glad to have your steam engine up and running. Your neighbors would also become either your best friends or your deadly enemies over night.

[Paul_H]

Your neighbors would also become either your best friends or your deadly enemies over night.

got that part covered  

[Paul_H]

 
I thought this was a cool little setup too.Grinding apples for cider with steam.





This engine was running a little sawmill,I can't remember if it was was the circle saw or the gang/sash sawmill.I like the motto 

 



 A fine looking Case





 

[Paul_H]

This little beauty was probably my favourite because my dad had a 1958 Marion shovel with a diesel and was converted to a log loader which he used for almost 20 years.

This little steam shovel has an interesting history which you can read about on their website.I'll post a link further down.

What a sweet little shovel!

 


 





If you have a slow connection but like working steam shovels,this video is worth the wait



And finally,a link to the website where you can see pics of recovering this old gem from the mud up in northern BC

LINK

[mad murdock]

Thanks Paul for posting the pic's and the link to the Westwold site.  Awesome, simply awesome.  Must have been a great time there last weekend!

[Norm]

Cool toys Paul!

That scenery is pretty nice too.

[Stan snider]

Paul; in the first picture with the little shovel and the next one is that a steam powered truck?

[Al_Smith]

Trivia .At one time there were two giants of the power shovel industry,Marion power shovel and Baldwin -Lima- Hamilton .The later made the "Lima " cranes and shovels .I was once employed there as welder .Both companies which are no longer in business were in Ohio about 50 miles apart . The demise of the strip mining industry brought the final curtain down on both of these companies .

Another tid bit concerning steam power is it takes 34,500 btu's of heat per hour to produce one steam horse power .Translate that to 150 KW and it becomes clear it would require a rather large boiler not to mention a large engine .It would be a full time job just cutting wood and stoking one that large .Besides all that steam is not a subject to taken up by the unknowledgable .More than one well meaning person has managed to cook themselves to the hue of a lobster .Not good .

[36 coupe]

A steam boiler consumse large amount of  wood,10 hp for 1 hour 1 cord of wood check it out.

[fishpharmer]

Hey Paul,
I read thru your posts and pics about steam equipment already.  I didn't appreciate it as much before spending a few days around the steam equipment at the local Soule event this weekend.  I would love to see a steam powered sawmill.  And steam shovel.  All the engines at Soule's were essentially stationary.  One local fella had a stationary engine that produced 18 hp.  I mentioned the Lucas mill had 18 hp too.  He said his engine made all that hp at 180 rpm. Yes one hundred and eighty, 3 digits.
I learned a lot. 

Thanks for sharing your pictures.

36 coupe, what do you think about a solar powered boiler, not without limitations, but cheap?

[Stan snider]

Hope we haven't lost Paul!  Stan

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

I love steam and everything to do with it but there is an art to it and as a power source for equipment day in day out  it takes alot of dedication so if you like being up 2 hrs before eveyone else to refire and do your boiler check and all the other requirements along with running and maint every day go for it 

I think personally that Wood Gas generation will become a big industry and you can buy modular turnkey plants already from china from small 5kva to 1000kva setts ant pretty reasonable prices the beauty of wood gas in an industrial setting is that the new systems have cutoffs and can alternate between running on diesel and wood fuel without any break in energy generation  so if you had bridging in your fuel hopper which was a regular problem when i was running one of two 1000hp output steam boilers generating heat for kilns at a mill i was at that you can only have one person fixing the problem while everybody else can continue to work  Plus if you get sick of trying to master wood gas you can just whack the std head back on the motor  and go full time diesel 

Regards Chris

[Tim]

The trouble with traditional steam plants is the shear dimension of them. They are huge. I bought a sawmill and planer a few years back. They threw in the 60hp Galt boiler as well. It was 5' in diameter and a good 16 feet long. You could stuff all of a cord into the dutch oven burner. The flue pipes were rusted through so I wound up scrapping it.

Back in 1985 or so, I heard of a fellow in Manitoba that had built a propane powered steam engine that was installed on his airplane. Needless to say, this raised an eyebrow for me. As it turns out, it was a closed circuit steam engine. This style was also reported on in a 1972 Popular Mechanics issue and mounted on a minibike.

The differences between the traditional steam plants and these closed circuit systems are many. The real difference is the rate of heat transfer from the burning fuel to the water. The old systems didn't have alot of surface area to facilitate  heat transfer, proportionally. These closed circuit systems use a very small amount of water in comparison to the traditional. They might only use 5 gallons or so to do the same amount of work as the 2300 gallon boiler I scrapped.

The thing about gasification Meddows Miller is that you still need an efficient means of burning that gas. 1kg of wood has a potential of 17,000w. Thermal efficiency allows only 70% or so, reducing it to 11,900w. An internal combustion engine works at 28% efficiency, reducing potential to 3,330w. The generator works at 80% efficiency so that potential is further reduced to 2,660w. Even though this seems discouraging, I'm working out to build a plant from what I have here. Gasoline and electricity is too dang expensive now and only set to get worse. I'll build and play with it and hope to get those efficiency numbers up.

As it is, I'm getting about $4/tonne for my sawdust now. If I can save a $100 a week on the gasoline I'm burning in the mill now. It'll help nicely.

[mad murdock]

Tim, your ideas sound very interesting.  I will stay tuned to your porgress, as I feel that closed circuit steam has much more potential than internal combustion.  If you check out the Besler Brothers Steam powered plane design of the early 1930's, the heart of their system was a 150 HP 2 cyl. engine and a boiler setup that was developed by the Doble Bros. of California, (Doble steam car).  Though it was not a 100% closed circuit, with the condenser it reclaimed about 90% of the water, and the aircraft could fly 400 miles on 10 gallons of water, which was quite a feat for the early 1930's.  The US Navy did a study on the Besler engine and boiler design, built 2 of the same setups that Beslers' had put in their plane, but they had funding cut when they were about to get to the aerial trial phase, so they opted to mount the engine/boiler setup in a boat and do the comparative tests on the water.  They proved out the claims made by the Besler s and in their report they determined that it was feasible to power an aircraft in the 150- up to 40 or so HP range with steam effectively.  http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=random&cat=18691&pos=-92135
http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2139&pos=1
http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2139&pos=6
http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2139&pos=7
I posted more diagrams and drawings of this from the US navy test report I found on the internet ove a year ago.  this is a real viable setup from what I have been able to determine.  It flew in the 1930's and in my view like a ton of good ideas that were brought to light in the late 20's and early 30's fell prey to the depression and massive efforts by big players in the emerging energy marketplace to buy up and control anything that would upset the powerstructure of the few blessed entities that controlled politics and business of the day, (anyone remember the Tucker Motor car?). IMO.  Keep on tinkering, you will come up with a workable system.