steam engines

[red oaks lumber]

want to hookup steam engine to 150 kvw generator. any leads on finding a source for the s. engine would be greatly appreciated.
 thanks, steve

[zopi]

Google it...there are some old engine clubs and organizations around who could prolly help...I love steam engines, just don't have time or moneyto fool with them...maybe when I get too old and broke to do much else i'l build little ones to play with.

[Woodwalker]

I'm interested in steam also, but the thing is a 150Kw generator is gonna take a good size power plant.

[zopi]

yeah...not gonna do the math but a better solution might be a diesel power unit...see 'em on sawmill exchange every so often.

[red oaks lumber]

from what if found, steam is 25 times stronger than diesel. so i'm thinking a 10 hp steam engine would be strong enough. going with a reg. generator (diesel) would cost the same as using elec. from the grid

[fishpharmer]

Red Oaks, I missed this again this year.  Bet some of the exhibitors could give you a lead.  You might try contacting the organizers to get some contacts. Soule used to make steam engines here in Meridian.

http://www.soulelivesteam.com/

A quote from the above website.....
"Soule', when in full operation, was able to produce one Spee-D-Twin steam engine per day. A total of 4,301 units were built. The museum owns the last steam engine built. Steam engine number 4300 was sold in 1996 to James M. Wills of Perkinston, Miss."

Here is a link with pictures from last year.  After looking through these I really hate I missed it.

http://www.glimpsesofmeridian.com/gom-4.html

Woodmizer is even represented in a pic near the bottom. 

Hope this entertains if not helps.

Next year if anyone wants to come see the festival give me a pm. I will be there.

[Stan snider]

Red Oaks:  The formula to calculate horsepower in a rotary motion is torque(in footpounds)X  RPM divided by5252.  The torque on a steam engine of the same Hp as a diesel will be much higher but the rpm's will be much lower.   I think a Hp translates to 746 watts electrical energy.    150 kw translates to a shade over 200 Hp if my line of calculation is correct.                                                                                                   I guess the moral of this is free lunches are hard to get.  I checked on a boiler system once and high pressure systems are large,heavy, expensive and require some consistent maintenance by licensed professionals, water treatment and will raise your insurance A LOT.                                                                                                         If steam doesn't work out  keep trying.   We all keep trying to find a better way to do whatever it is we do anyway. Its called Capitalism.  I like it.  Stan

[Brucer]

Red Oaks:  The formula to calculate horsepower in a rotary motion is torque(in footpounds)X  RPM divided by5252.  The torque on a steam engine of the same Hp as a diesel will be much higher but the rpm's will be much lower.   I think a Hp translates to 746 watts electrical energy.    150 kw translates to a shade over 200 Hp if my line of calculation is correct.

Yep, bang on, Stan. You won't be getting 100% conversion, so the actual HP will be higher.

And as you said, high pressure is an issue. All sorts of rules and regulations regarding pressure vessels (generally anything over 15 PSI). The rules are annoying, but they're there for a good reason -- a couple of centuries of disastrous explosions.

Interestingly enough, the very first "steam engines" were actually vacuum engines. Low pressure steam was used to fill a giant cylinder with a piston at the top. The steam inlet valve was closed and cold water was sprayed into the cylinder. This condensed the steam creating a partial vacuum. Air pressure forced the piston down. The piston was connected to a rocking beam and used to lift water out of the adjacent mine.

Vacuum engines were very safe because nothing was under pressure. When someone first pointed out that a steam engine using pressurized steam would be much more powerful, the engineers of the day thought it would be suicidal to build such a contraption.

[Ron Wenrich]

from what if found, steam is 25 times stronger than diesel. so i'm thinking a 10 hp steam engine would be strong enough. going with a reg. generator (diesel) would cost the same as using elec. from the grid

We found that producing power from a diesel to be cheaper than from the grid.  We have 3 phase run right past our mill.  Hookup would have been at least $100k after all the transformers and the like were put in place and the lines were run.  That was 15 years ago.

There would also be a monthly charge whether we used that much juice or not.  Our pencil said it was cheaper to go with the diesel unit.  We were also fortunate enough to lock in prices for 6 months at a time.  When there were high spikes in price, ours stayed lower. 

And, our electric rates have been made artificially low due to deregulation.  Those prices are going to go way up this year.

I don't know of too many mills that have used steam to make electricity.  Those that do have a use for the process steam.  If you could go into co-generation, then you have a better shot at doing things. 

[zopi]

I wish the EPA would pull their heads out about the high efficiency diesels being used in Europe..different subject perhaps, but the technology still applies...

[logwalker]

Here is a link to the last commercial mill run with steam. It is south of Corvallis Oregon and they give free tours most any day of the week except the weekends. The link is very picture heavy. They cut timbers to 85'.

http://www.garymkatz.com/OnTheRoad/HullOaks.htm

[fishpharmer]

Logwalker, nice link.  In enjoyed seeing the pictures and reading the captains.

[stonebroke]

What did the guy do with that steam engine in 1995? Did he buy it to collect or to actually use?

Stonebroke

[bandmiller2]

Red Oaks, the big bugaboo with steam is the boiler and legalities of its management,most states have licence and insurance requirements.You have to ether go all the way or keep it out of sight and play dumb.The bigger the engine and boiler the easier and cheaper ,everyone wants the little cutsey ones.It takes alot of scearching and the good ole boy network,guys involved in steam know where everything is.Look for old factories with big stacks,many times they still have the old machinery because its just too hard to remove.Steam generation is simple but requires constant supervision and management and is best done with a large plant and duty firemen.Probibly makes more scence to make a wood gas gen. and run an old generator with that.Sorry to be a wet blanket.Frank C.

[fishpharmer]

What did the guy do with that steam engine in 1995? Did he buy it to collect or to actually use?

Stonebroke

You mean the Soule' ?  I really don't know.  Maybe ole Tim Garrison of WM fame has it.  He has alot of antique stuff. Perkinston, MS  ain't a real populated area.  He might know who has it. 

[red oaks lumber]

ok, maybe steam is not happening. but i'm not giving up on having another option for elec.
 once the senate passes cap and trade hold on to your lug nuts! cost of elect. will go up faster than a ladies dress on a windy day..
 thanks for the help everyone

[bandmiller2]

Red Oaks,don't give up on steam.If you use alot of elect. say for a mill or to run machinery,you could have a steam generator,use it when your working the machinery.Off hours or at night drop the boiler pressure and use it to heat your house and shop.When your asleep or away depend on the grid,really elect. is a bargan for what you get.Steam is good power if you have fuel at little or no cost.I ran a circular mill with steam [real pain in the winter] and a shingle mill with a gear reduction turbine.At one time I had a 110v DC power unit out of a tug boat,a Troy verticle engine coupled to the gen. on a cast iron base.Steam is a way of life with only the romance remembered today,not the danger ,hot ,heavy ,dirty work.Steam beats a mule,diesel beats steam,and the grid whoops them all.Red , the stuff is out there if you set up a modern boiler with a dutch oven to burn wood and waste and locate a small turbine or recip. engine you can have alot of fun read old engineering books Audels and the Croft power plant series are good,be carefull steam can kill.Frank C.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Steam Turbines---Elliott Co--Jeanette Pa. 5 HP and up to LOTS of HP.

  Also found info on 2 cylinder Compound Steam marine engines.  Price listed around $2250.00 or so   Shouldn't be all that high of pressure, to use on 20-25 foot boats

  My Dad had one, that you could pick up and carry around. It come out of a 22' boat, and could push that boat at 20 MPH

[mad murdock]

http://www.mikebrownsolutions.com/20hpse.htm
this is a pretty neat engine.  It is rated at 20HP.  Similar in design to this engine http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/TRANSPORT/steamplane/steamplane.htm
Here is a link to a 1930's TravelAir 2000 airplane refitted with a steam engine, developed by the Besler brothers, and the boiler was developed by Doble, or Doble Brothers steam automobile fame.  The US Navy actually built a follow on engine/boiler system to evaluate in a flying testbed in the mid 1950's and published a report that has photos and drawings, which you can download on one of the sites that has the Besler plane on it.  I have been fascinated with steam engines since childhood, and like Mr. Brown, think that the Rankine Cycle has much more potential to provide cheap power than the Otto Cycle, especially when considering the advances in metalurgy, and electronic technology these days.

[mad murdock]

the Cyclone radial steam engine is another interesting critter, may have some possibilities in the future?
http://www.cyclonepower.com/technical_information2.html