ATTN: NH Foresters and Loggers

[chevytaHOE5674]

I guess its just one of those things " you should of been there to find out the reason why".

Hopefully those reasons stay on the right coast and don't migrate.



I'm also still looking for a logical reason as to how these new regulations will help?

[mrnero]

I guess its just one of those things " you should of been there to find out the reason why".

Hopefully those reasons stay on the right coast and don't migrate.



I'm also still looking for a logical reason as to how these new regulations will help?

Well, these new regulations shouldn't effect you or help you at all in MI. If I'm not mistaken, these new regulations will only help the NH land owners. Sorry.

[Jeff]

mrnero, I should not need to remind you that this is not an exclusive forum to NH.  We all have a stake in what effects our forests.

Jeff Brokaw
Harrison MICHIGAN
Forestry Forum Founder.

[chevytaHOE5674]

Well, these new regulations shouldn't effect you or help you at all in MI. If I'm not mistaken, these new regulations will only help the NH land owners. Sorry.

I'm glad they won't "help" me. But am afraid that these regulations could spread.

How will they "help" the land owners? By taking $5k from their pockets? By still allowing people to do things illegally? What will change?



We have laws against people speeding. Do people still do it? Yes. If they passed a new law tomorrow that made speeding illegal again would people still do it? Yes. Now if they tripled the police force and made the minimum fine for a speeding ticket $5k bucks (without passing another no speeding law) i sure bet people would stop speeding.

[mrnero]

mrnero, I should not need to remind you that this is not an exclusive forum to NH.  We all have a stake in what effects our forests.

Jeff Brokaw
Harrison MICHIGAN
Forestry Forum Founder.

Jeff, I dont think that I ever stated that this was an exclusive forum to NH. I also have a stake in what effects my forest land property too!!

[GRANITEstateMP]

Most of us native NH folk understand that another expensive law or regulation won't help our timber industry or our state as a whole.  Big government isn't welcomed by anybody that's been here for a while, it's always the transplants.  I'll beat this dead horse one more time, the laws are there, they work, they just need to be enforced.  Make an example of the offenders, fine the hell out of them, not the people who are doing right by the forest, laws, and landowners.  New laws, Big Government, and Lawyers are NOT the New Hampshire way.

LIVE FREE OR DIE (that's the NH way)

[sprucebunny]

As a (large) NH land owner, I do not want more laws about my land. There is no need of me filing for a $5k permit to cross each stream on my land.

A small amount of muddy runoff happens each spring; I'd like to see you legislate that ! It's how the land as we know it was formed.
Someone should notify the beavers about this stream crossing thing and oversee their dam building so they don't collapse at the spring runoff and each dam should be checked for integrity even after the dam beavers have abandoned said dam. Ya, right.

Live free or die trying !

[woodmills1]

we sure need a beaver law.....................

[John Mc]

Most of us native NH folk understand that another expensive law or regulation won't help our timber industry or our state as a whole.

Why is it that the outlook seems to be so different if you go just a few miles west to my (adopted) home state?

Big government isn't welcomed by anybody that's been here for a while, it's always the transplants.

Oh...now I get it. Seems for the most part to be divided up that way here, too. We just must have a higher percentage of flatlanders, or maybe just a higher percentage in our government.

Oh well... at least not ALL flatlanders think more government is better (nor do ALL of the woodchucks seem to realize that it's not someone else's job to make sure you can live comfortably, despite your own total lack of effort).

John Mc
(flatlander, but maybe I can overcome that someday...)

[JDeere]

mrnero, With all due respect, from your ramblings it is apparent you don't have an even basic understanding of the legal principals involved with the elements of negligence or recklessness. It is far too complicated to explain in this forum. However, cutting wood on the property of another without permission, regardless of where you thought the property line is, is a prosecutable offense under the current NH law. If you don't believe that call a NH Forest Ranger and ask him.

[mrnero]

mrnero, With all due respect, from your ramblings it is apparent you don't have an even basic understanding of the legal principals involved with the elements of negligence or recklessness. It is far too complicated to explain in this forum. However, cutting wood on the property of another without permission, regardless of where you thought the property line is, is a prosecutable offense under the current NH law. If you don't believe that call a NH Forest Ranger and ask him.

(1); Negligence and recklessness is defined in any dictionary its not that complicated to understand or explain. (2); I never said that NH doesn't have a trespass timber harvesting statue after Jan 1999. The statue also states that the fine is based on the market value of the logs taken: (e.g. % of stumpage value to the abutting land owner damage) (3); Before you keep rambling on. The orginal topic was "New Stream Xing" ... which NH forestry is currently exempt..
"This is in regards to the new stream crossing rules currently being discussed in Concord. Forestry is currently exempt from the standard dredge permits, but NH DES wants to change all that." With due respect, It would be nice if your comments to me is related to the orginal topic, I dont need another warning from the admin. again. Thanks

[ljmathias]

Let's play nice guys- keep the forum the wonderfully informative, non-political and friendly place it is.  We all have strong opinions on stuff but that shouldn't interfere with how we behave.  Not trying to lecture, just hate to see emotions rise on disagreements about facts versus opinions.  As someone once told me: facts are facts, but opinions depend on who you are; just because you have the right to an opinion doesn't mean the opinion is right...

Hope you all had as wonderful a Thanksgiving as I did- having all the kids and grandkids around for most of the day sure puts things in perspective, what's important and what's not so important.  Before it's too late, let me wish you all a joyous Christmas holidays as well!!

Lj

[beenthere]

................... just because you have the right to an opinion doesn't mean the opinion is right.......................

That is a quote I'd like to remember and keep in mind. Well said  (IMO    )

[John Mc]

The dictionary definition doesn't mean much of anything when you are talking about legal issues. You need to refer to case law and study the precedents. While probably few, if any who have commented here are lawyers, I'm sure some of them are familiar with how things have been applied in their state, since many have had to deal with it first hand.

As far as getting back on subject, wasn't it you, mrnero who first got us off the subject of stream crossings and onto timber theft/trespass?

[mrnero]

The dictionary definition doesn't mean much of anything when you are talking about legal issues. You need to refer to case law and study the precedents. While probably few, if any who have commented here are lawyers, I'm sure some of them are familiar with how things have been applied in their state, since many have had to deal with it first hand.

As far as getting back on subject, wasn't it you, mrnero who first got us off the subject of stream crossings and onto timber theft/trespass?

"The dictionary definition doesn't mean much of anything when you are talking about legal issues". Ever hear of a law dictionary ? 
" mrnero who first got us off the subject of stream crossings and onto timber theft/trespass?" Yes as explaining that my parents also being a victim of timber theft prior to the """"new law""""" that was enacted in 1999.
But the NH harvesting/logging industry are still exempt from stream/wetland crossing which again my parents and other abutting land owners was victims of,  environmental damage runoff from abutting logging operations in 1995.
DES is proposing a """wetland law""" for logging/harvesting operations for them to follow to protect the environmental damage that they cause  near streams and wetlands. Presently, they have been exempt for the past 14 years. Its time for a change.

[mrnero]

................... just because you have the right to an opinion doesn't mean the opinion is right.......................

That is a quote I'd like to remember and keep in mind. Well said  (IMO    )

True, thats all most simular to another phrase that I heard
Its hard for me to know anything, when you think you know everything.

[chevytaHOE5674]

Could you please find in the written law where is says forestry practices are exempt?

[mrnero]

Could you please find in the written law where is says forestry practices are exempt?

Chech with Black_Bear, its his orginal topic.      " forestry is currently exempt from the standard dredge permits....DES wants to change all that.. so forestry will comply with the new stream / brook crossing rule.  How do you interpret this rulling ??
[Black_Bear
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     ATTN: NH Foresters and Loggers
« on: November 07, 2009, 09:43:38 AM »   

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This is in regards to the new stream crossing rules currently being discussed in Concord. Forestry is currently exempt from the standard dredge permits, but NH DES wants to change all that.

There are two public meetings scheduled to discuss this issue. One meeting is Monday November 9th at the Co-Op Extension in Lancaster and the other meeting is Tuesday November 10th at the Pease Public Library in Plymouth. Both meetings start at 6PM.

If this rule passes as written it would require forestry activities to apply for and obtain standard dredge permits:

From Jasen Stock of NHTOA: Crossings where the brook drains more than 200 acres = standard dredge minor permit (these cost approx. $5k) – closed bottom culverts need to be buried 50%

Crossings where the brook drains more than 640 acres = standard dredge major permit (these cost well over $5k) – closed bott /quote]

[Paul_H]

True, thats all most simular to another phrase that I heard
Its hard for me to know anything, when you think you know everything.

mnero,

I bet you've heard that plenty,eh? What U think?

[Black_Bear]

From Nov. 8th, one day after the original post:

To clarify the original post, forestry related activities in NH aren't technically "exempt" from the dredge and fill rules. Basically, if you want to use a crossing you must file a "forest management or timber harvest activities having minimum wetlands impact" application, which costs $25. When you submit this application you must include a map showing the proposed crossing locations and what type of crossings they will be (i.e. pole ford, culvert,etc.). The applicant also agrees to adhere to NH BMP's - it is mandatory and failure to do so will get you an automatic violation.

This notification process allows NH DES to monitor the locations of the crossings and also allows the activities to proceed without the delay of waiting for a permit. As far as current  enforcement goes, the NH Rangers are very active and, as far as I know, they attempt to visit every job. NH Rangers have visited my jobs on numerous occasions this summer. They are very fair and understanding of a typical logging job, but from what I hear they are not afraid to hit your pocketbook if they find a wetlands violation.

Ed      

Time to refine the argument, whatever it may be???