ATTN: NH Foresters and Loggers

[mrnero]

If the logger doesn't know where the boundary is that is negligence in most cases. This is why you should always keep your boundaries marked...

P.S.  This is why you should always keep your boundaries marked...
    True, This will help keep out timber harvesting theft from occuring on your private property.

[chevytaHOE5674]

Negligence, "The doing of something which a reasonably prudent person would not do, or the failure to do something which a reasonably prudent person would do under like circumstances"

A reasonable prudent would not start cutting trees without first knowing who owns them and obtaining permission to cut them. I've been in the court room when the logger was found guilty of timber trespass because he didn't first find the property line.

[mrnero]

Negligence, "The doing of something which a reasonably prudent person would not do, or the failure to do something which a reasonably prudent person would do under like circumstances"

A reasonable prudent would not start cutting trees without first knowing who owns them and obtaining permission to cut them. I've been in the court room when the logger was found guilty of timber trespass because he didn't first find the property line.

I don't know what state the court room was that you are referring to. Evidently, you must have better timber harvesting laws in your state than we do in NH. Now I know that NH needs to update and pass new timber harvesting regulation in NH to be comparable with your and other state timber harvesting laws to protect the victims of Ossippi residents and other NH towns to help prevent future timber harvesting theft. Thanks

[chevytaHOE5674]

Our timber trespass laws are worded much like the ones I've found for NH, theres just a difference in your reading and the readings of the courts, lawyers, and expert forestry witnesses view of the laws it seems. If you feel that more laws are needed then nothing we say will change that, but can you say hello bigger government.

Just wait until $5000 permits take place, and the timber industry falls more than it already has. If you lived in a small town that relied on logging (as I do) you would know what that would do to the economy.     

[red oaks lumber]

mrnero,
 maybe i'm wrong but, wasn't your beef about stream crossings? now your focus switched to timber theft.
 this forum should not be your stage for being against logging!

[bull]

mrnero is very misinformed and is attempting to interpret the law.....  If you are neglegent you have neglected to do something.. Ie failed to check boundry lines.failed to file for a permit.... If you tresspass, you are a tresspaser Ie enter upon land of another with out right or permission, If you do not own the land or do not have permission to be there you are a tresspasser, if the property is posted *( with the best intent of the property owner or lessee )* or your are told to leave you and refuse to buy an owner or person with agent athority you are there and then arrestable * ( I have the handcuffs and will use them )* Theft is theft and any theft from realestate is a felony, timber is a part of the property and the assessed value is reasonable value. Larceny over $500.00 is a felony..
Ie. a 1 acre parcel ag land is valued at $12500.00 in Ma. and a 1 acre residential lot is valued at $100,000.00 Here so you have met the felony threshold....  The laws are there they are written and do have standing the problem is preception and interpretation........ The courts and judges have to stad on the written law as do we the public.... Auit whinning that laws don't exist, if you are be represented by a lawyer get a new one your are getting bad advise if not hire one because you don't under stand the law at all...... As I said before you need to stick around and learn a few things here before spouting off.... Many people have been arrested and or fined and even sentenced to jail for timber tresspass and timber theft in the recent past and will be in the future... As for conservation practices and wetlands crossing and or access you also need to read further to under stand the laws, there are exmptions and permitting practices inplace. We this industry should be doing a better job at policing each uther and cleaning up our messes and yes bad loggers are more our problem than anyone elses....  Also if a case fales relative to a judgement you disagree with THEN use the system and appeal, make case law that will make the law affirmed !!!    More to come if need be !!!

[mrnero]

mrnero,
 maybe i'm wrong but, wasn't your beef about stream crossings? now your focus switched to timber theft.
 this forum should not be your stage for being against logging!

Yes, you are right, This did start out as new stream laws regulation for NH. But someone else posted the NH RSA # regulations for timber harvesting theft laws under this topic which I replied to and so did everyone else. It looks like it just escalated from there. True, the new stream crossing has nothing to do with the NH RSA statue's that was posted. Furthermore, as I stated before, I'm not against harvesting timber or growning timber., in fact, I process firewood that comes from harvested logs.

[mrnero]

mrnero is very misinformed and is attempting to interpret the law.....  If you are neglegent you have neglected to do something.. Ie failed to check boundry lines.failed to file for a permit.... If you tresspass, you are a tresspaser Ie enter upon land of another with out right or permission, If you do not own the land or do not have permission to be there you are a tresspasser, if the property is posted *( with the best intent of the property owner or lessee )* or your are told to leave you and refuse to buy an owner or person with agent athority you are there and then arrestable * ( I have the handcuffs and will use them )* Theft is theft and any theft from realestate is a felony, timber is a part of the property and the assessed value is reasonable value. Larceny over $500.00 is a felony..
Ie. a 1 acre parcel ag land is valued at $12500.00 in Ma. and a 1 acre residential lot is valued at $100,000.00 Here so you have met the felony threshold....  The laws are there they are written and do have standing the problem is preception and interpretation........ The courts and judges have to stad on the written law as do we the public.... Auit whinning that laws don't exist, if you are be represented by a lawyer get a new one your are getting bad advise if not hire one because you don't under stand the law at all...... As I said before you need to stick around and learn a few things here before spouting off.... Many people have been arrested and or fined and even sentenced to jail for timber tresspass and timber theft in the recent past and will be in the future... As for conservation practices and wetlands crossing and or access you also need to read further to under stand the laws, there are exmptions and permitting practices inplace. We this industry should be doing a better job at policing each uther and cleaning up our messes and yes bad loggers are more our problem than anyone elses....  Also if a case fales relative to a judgement you disagree with THEN use the system and appeal, make case law that will make the law affirmed !!!    More to come if need be !!!

Lets get back to the orginal topic : new wet lands stream crossing. Thanks

[chevytaHOE5674]

Lets get back to the orginal topic : new wet lands stream crossing. Thanks

Ok so from what I read there are adequate wetlands laws in place. If they are not being followed then they need to be enforced. More laws will do nothing without enforcement. So just enforce the current laws.   

[bull]

Amen Chevy Tahoe.
 Mrnero I hope I have not offended you that wasn't my intention.
As for wetlands issuses I have to get to a Conseravtion Commission meeting for 7:30 so I will have to check the forum when I return... I am the Vice chair of the commission, 8 years and counting.

[mrnero]

Lets get back to the orginal topic : new wet lands stream crossing. Thanks

Ok so from what I read there are adequate wetlands laws in place. If they are not being followed then they need to be enforced. More laws will do nothing without enforcement. So just enforce the current laws.  

What I read in the first post is ;
 "Forestry is currently exempt from the standard dredge permits, but NH DES wants to change all that.
True; NH has the current standard dredge permits for everyone in NH to follow , but the """" forestry div ( e.g. ; timber harvesting ) in exempt from the standard dredging permits in NH . Please correct me if I'm interpreting this wrong.

[chevytaHOE5674]

RSA 482-A is commonly referred to as the dredge and fill law, since these are the regulated activities. Fill is defined as material that has been deposited or caused to be deposited by human activity. Some examples of fill:
1.
Material, such as gravel, placed in a wetland or stream for a skid trail or truck road.
2.
Tree limbs (corduroy) placed in wetlands or drainage swale for a skid trail.
3.
Logs or rock (pole/stone ford) placed in stream bed for skid trail.
4.
Logs or rock placed in stream bank for a bridge abutment.
5.
Stockpiling of tree butts, slash, and debris in a wetland, bank, or waterbody.
Dredge is defined as the excavation or otherwise disturbance of the soil in a wetland, bank or surface waterbody. Some examples of dredge would be:
1.
Excavating a bank to install a bridge abutment.
2.
Digging in a stream or wetland to install a culvert.
3.
Machinery ruts in a wetland, bank or waterbody
If your proposed forestry project involves any of the above activities by crossing surface waters or non-frozen wetlands, then you are required to file Notification of Forest Management or Timber Harvest Activities Having Minimum Wetlands Impact.

May be exempt from the $5k permit, but still have to file notification. So if whom ever you file the notification with was doing their job everything would be kosher.

[mrnero]

Amen Chevy Tahoe.
 Mrnero I hope I have not offended you that wasn't my intention.
As for wetlands issuses I have to get to a Conseravtion Commission meeting for 7:30 so I will have to check the forum when I return... I am the Vice chair of the commission, 8 years and counting.

No offense taken, This is a regulation that NH wants to adopt to protect the land owners of NH from enviromental  damaged caused by the Forestry acts.  If the Commonwealth plans on adopting this same regulation in the future, We can discuss that when the time come. Thanks

[mrnero]

RSA 482-A is commonly referred to as the dredge and fill law, since these are the regulated activities. Fill is defined as material that has been deposited or caused to be deposited by human activity. Some examples of fill:
1.
Material, such as gravel, placed in a wetland or stream for a skid trail or truck road.
2.
Tree limbs (corduroy) placed in wetlands or drainage swale for a skid trail.
3.
Logs or rock (pole/stone ford) placed in stream bed for skid trail.
4.
Logs or rock placed in stream bank for a bridge abutment.
5.
Stockpiling of tree butts, slash, and debris in a wetland, bank, or waterbody.
Dredge is defined as the excavation or otherwise disturbance of the soil in a wetland, bank or surface waterbody. Some examples of dredge would be:
1.
Excavating a bank to install a bridge abutment.
2.
Digging in a stream or wetland to install a culvert.
3.
Machinery ruts in a wetland, bank or waterbody
If your proposed forestry project involves any of the above activities by crossing surface waters or non-frozen wetlands, then you are required to file Notification of Forest Management or Timber Harvest Activities Having Minimum Wetlands Impact.

May be exempt from the $5k permit, but still have to file notification. So if whom ever you file the notification with was doing their job everything would be kosher.

True, how about the times when they are not doing there job ? It wouldn't be kosher then, would it ??

[chevytaHOE5674]

True, how about the times when they are not doing there job ? It wouldn't be kosher then, would it ??

So passing a new law will make that agency do their jobs? NO.

Laws only work if there is an enforcing agency. Sounds like that agency just needs a kick in the pants.

[mrnero]

True, how about the times when they are not doing there job ? It wouldn't be kosher then, would it ??

So passing a new law will make that agency do their jobs? NO.

Laws only work if there is an enforcing agency. Sounds like that agency just needs a kick in the pants.

[/quote] Mr Chevytahoe, I was just wondering why a person in MI is so concerned what us land or property owners wants in NH. I just think that I'm missing something. Anyway, thanks for your previous thoughts and input on this NH new forestry regulation that we hope will become law. Thanks

[chevytaHOE5674]

Mr Chevytahoe, I was just wondering why a person in MI is so concerned what us land or property owners wants in NH. I just think that I'm missing something. Anyway, thanks for your previous thoughts /debate on this NH new forestry regulation that we hope will become law. Thanks

Because once obnoxious over regulation takes hold in one area they tend to spread like a disease.

Who is this "we" because most in the industry, people who do the right thing and people that rely on forest products industry (remember it trickles from the loggers to the grocery stores) I'm sure are against these useless permit fees.

Until you can enforce the current laws, there is no since making new. Haven't seen one reason why a new law would help.

I'm sure that any land owner interested in a timber sale would be happy to learn that 5k of his profits are going to have to go towards a permit to cross a ditch. "sir you'll make 10k from the timber sale, oopps I forgot we need 5k for this permit, so you'll only make 5k" Sounds attractive doesn't it.

[mrnero]

Mr Chevytahoe, I was just wondering why a person in MI is so concerned what us land or property owners wants in NH. I just think that I'm missing something. Anyway, thanks for your previous thoughts /debate on this NH new forestry regulation that we hope will become law. Thanks

Because once obnoxious over regulation takes hold in one area they tend to spread like a disease.

Who is this "we" because most in the industry, people who do the right thing and people that rely on forest products industry (remember it trickles from the loggers to the grocery stores) I'm sure are against these useless permit fees.

Until you can enforce the current laws, there is no since making new. Haven't seen one reason why a new law would help.

I guess its just one of those things " you should of been there to find out the reason why".

[red oaks lumber]

the actions taken in NH will effect every state at some point, if your "type" get what you want, what will the house of the future look like?what will all these new laws and permits be written on? what will we wipe are tailpipe with? when the treasury dept. makes new money what will that be made with?
 you mrnero will need to find other work, nomore logs for you to cut firewood from. so if the new trend is to be more "green" break our dependacy on foreign oil, with no logging where is the firewood going to come from? so we must still be dependant on foreign oil.
 the usa thought the meltdown on wallstreet was bad, lose logging noone knows how big of shoe that will be to drop.
 when someone chooses to support a "cause" you must first see all the effects of that "cause" will be, after that you might see the "cause" is really the "affect"

[tughill]

I'm not sure what muddy water has to do with lack of fish.  I know the tree huggers will tell you that turbidity and sediment kills fish, but if that were true, there sure would not be any fish around here, around springtime, every ditch, creek, stream, and river looks like chocolate milk.  And not because of farming or logging, just because of natural erosion.

I've thought for a long time, that only extreme pride, conceit, and stupidity, would make people believe that cutting a few trees or driving a farm tractor through a ditch would have long lasting and far ranging effects on the environment.