ATTN: NH Foresters and Loggers

[Black_Bear]

This is in regards to the new stream crossing rules currently being discussed in Concord. Forestry is currently exempt from the standard dredge permits, but NH DES wants to change all that.

There are two public meetings scheduled to discuss this issue. One meeting is Monday November 9th at the Co-Op Extension in Lancaster and the other meeting is Tuesday November 10th at the Pease Public Library in Plymouth. Both meetings start at 6PM.

If this rule passes as written it would require forestry activities to apply for and obtain standard dredge permits:

From Jasen Stock of NHTOA: Crossings where the brook drains more than 200 acres = standard dredge minor permit (these cost approx. $5k) – closed bottom culverts need to be buried 50%

Crossings where the brook drains more than 640 acres = standard dredge major permit (these cost well over $5k) – closed bottom culverts not allowed.

As you can see the new rules would drastically alter the landowners, foresters and loggers ability to perform an economical timber harvest.

You can read more here:

http://des.nh.gov/organization/commissioner/legal/rulemaking/documents/Env-Wt900PRELIMINARYFP.pdf

http://des.nh.gov/organization/commissioner/legal/rulemaking/documents/Env-Wt300-500-800streamamdPRELIMINARYFP.pdf

http://des.nh.gov/organization/commissioner/legal/rulemaking/documents/env-wt_101_strm_amd_ip.pdf

[mrnero]

I been following this for the past few months. I think its a good move to help protect the future of our enviroment. I hope that the commonwealth will also come up with the same regulation, soon. My parents villa is close to a previous harvested track of land in Ossipee, NH. There used to be a great fishing streams where we went fishing when I was younger. During their logging operations, the stream became all muddy
and there was eventurally no fish to be found. If this regulation prevents this from happening again, I'm all for it to pass.

[Tom]

mrnero,
i understand your observation, but the fact is that the Industry of Forestry has operated under rules of BMP's (Best Management Practices) for generations to prevent this from happening.  BMP's aren't just nice recommendations, they are the rules that the Foresters and loggers live by. 

Logging is an intensive operation. It always has been and always will be.  The dirtying of your stream shouldn't have happened but, in all liklihood it was because of inattentiveness to the rules.  This inattentiveness will happen regardless of the rule.

The shame of depending upon permits and laws is that they are destroying the Forestry Industry.  There must be a better way to accomplish some of the wishes that you describe without legislation and even changing State Constitutions.  Somewhere, sometime, someone needs to stand up for our Foresters, loggers and landowners, or there will no longer be an industry in our USA.  Growing trees isn't only about pristine wilderness.

[nas]

The fact is that these permits are about one thing, cash in the govt pockets.  They can make, and have, rules to insure waterways are not damaged.  When you have to fork out wads of cash for a permit it is a cash grab.

Nick

[mrnero]

Tom, I agree with you 100 %. It shouldn't of happened, but it did. But, this regulation is for enviromental damage caused by logging operations in NH and not by forestry management or what you call BMP. This regulation is being presented by NH Department of Enviromental Services / Water Division. Which their mission is to protect, maintain and enhance environmental quality and public health in New Hampshire. I do not think that revised or newer rules and regulations will distroy the forest industry, its the enviromental impact from logging operations that is presently distroying our enviroment in the forest. The present enviromental damage from the present logging regulations ain't working in Ossipee and I'm still in favor of a newer and safer change to protect the enviroment from future logging operations. I think that NH does have a good forestry management program for years, but we have to better the enviromental damage that occures during forestry management.

[Tom]

Well, you folks up there in the far east wing are a lot more used to government control than most of the country, and if that is the way it is best handled, then that's OK with me.  I think you might not understand about the History of logging and the Science of Forestry as deeply as you do the control of environmentalism.  Heavy thumbs and expensive permits will destroy the Industry in your land if you allow it.  $5000 permits to cross a stream are prohibitive when compared to the profits to be garnered by the landowners by selling the timber.

There are rules in most logging areas that require that stream crossings, be built with care and that they be returned to the original stream bed when finished. BMP's, are you familiar with them?, prohibit the taking of logs within certain boundaries around a stream or river.  Contrary to popular belief, Foresters, loggers and Landowners are the quintessential environmentalists.  The current environmental movement is made up mostly of urbanites who have no concern for the forests, other than man doesn't belong in them.

[Gary_C]

But, this regulation is for enviromental damage caused by logging operations in NH and not by forestry management or what you call BMP.

I am not sure you understand that logging is an integral part of forestry management and that BMP's are regilously followed by loggers as well as foresters. If in this one case the BMP's were not followed, then some one was not doing their job and that does not reflect on the entire forest management system.

To me this sounds more like a power struggle between the water quality people and the forestry people and they are using one situation to paint a bad picture of the entire industry. That does happen regularly here in Minnesota also with periodic conflicts between the DNR and the Polution Control Agency.

I was in the middle of one such struggle when the PCA decided that even native materials placed in the traveled part of a trail could not be left in place but had to be removed at the end of the job. It was not a problem for me as I had just used some scrap logs to widen a turn where there was a ditch. I just covered the logs with snow and let it freeze. It made the turn wider and I was easily able to remove the logs when I was done. But the battle between the DNR and PCA may still be going on. In many cases such as using logs in rip rap you could not easily retrieve the native material. And the PCA doesn't seem to care if there is water present there or not.

[GRANITEstateMP]

I might be off base here, I'm not a logger, just cut enough wood for myself and the family farm, and maybe a few extra cord to sell.  But that's monion is just another layer of red tape, 95% of the forestry people I've ever met are as environmentally conscious (sp?) people who are out to make a living and work the land, not destroy it.  Our state motto is "Live Free Or Die", it seems that the government is again trying to put their hands into the common mans pockets.  Hey big brother get out of my backyard!

Matt

[chevytaHOE5674]

I been following this for the past few months. I think its a good move to help protect the future of our enviroment. I hope that the commonwealth will also come up with the same regulation, soon. My parents villa is close to a previous harvested track of land in Ossipee, NH. There used to be a great fishing streams where we went fishing when I was younger. During their logging operations, the stream became all muddy
and there was eventurally no fish to be found. If this regulation prevents this from happening again, I'm all for it to pass.

The guys breaking the rules (Best Management Practices's) are going to continue to do so, so the 5k permit won't stop them. Making new laws doesn't solve the issue of people doing things that are against the law already. Just like its illegal to murder someone, but it still happens. Would a new law saying its still illegal change anything?.... NO. There is always going to be somebody out there to break the laws!!!

[red oaks lumber]

this country dosen't need more regs. or permits. forests are a crop just like corn or anything else. ya, there pretty and nice to walk in but, there still a crop. what happens when all logging stops for sake of the "enviroment"? ever try wiping your tailpipe with plastic.
 rules only apply to the honest people

[Black_Bear]

Tom, regarding current laws and regulations that govern forestry related activities, NH is very fair and not many of us want to see more govt control. This definitely feels like a stream crossing tax though.

To clarify the original post, forestry related activities in NH aren't technically "exempt" from the dredge and fill rules. Basically, if you want to use a crossing you must file a "forest management or timber harvest activities having minimum wetlands impact" application, which costs $25. When you submit this application you must include a map showing the proposed crossing locations and what type of crossings they will be (i.e. pole ford, culvert,etc.). The applicant also agrees to adhere to NH BMP's - it is mandatory and failure to do so will get you an automatic violation.

This notification process allows NH DES to monitor the locations of the crossings and also allows the activities to proceed without the delay of waiting for a permit. As far as current  enforcement goes, the NH Rangers are very active and, as far as I know, they attempt to visit every job. NH Rangers have visited my jobs on numerous occasions this summer. They are very fair and understanding of a typical logging job, but from what I hear they are not afraid to hit your pocketbook if they find a wetlands violation.

Mrnero appears to be upset over an incident that occurred in Ossipee, and I don't blame him, nobody, including loggers, wants to see their fishing holes mudded out or destroyed. But don't cut the nose off to spite the face. The exorbitant fees being proposed are absurd and not well thought out. If the river specialists are so concerned about "connectivity" and "water quality" then be proactive and educate the woodsmen about proper crossings. NH already has an excellent Professional Logging Program that teaches, among other things, BMPs.

Educate and inform, don't tax.

For those interested, here is the NH Guide to Timber Harvesting Laws:

  http://extension.unh.edu/forestry/Docs/gtnhthl.pdf 

Ed      

[PAFaller]

There are a couple issues at play here. There is a huge push for water quality, and I understand that, same here in PA and the goals to help restore Chesapeake Bay. I am familiar with NH and Maine and the BMPs there, having gone to UNH and worked near where mrnero's family has their ground. The first issue is that those who do the right thing file the proper paperwork, use bridges, install culverts, and avoid working on sites that are wet until the dry of summer or the freeze up in winter. However, like any business there are bad apples, and they make life difficult for everyone. Any state with a timber industry has a lot more people working in the woods than they have people to police logging jobs, so why make more rules that you can't enforce? Its like leaving up speed limit signs but removing highway patrol. I understand the frustration, but why penalize the guy who is doing what hes supposed too and telling him he needs to buy a 5000 permit, knowing the fly by night guys are still going to make a mess and ruin it for everyone else? I would much rather see more enforcement of the rules that are already in place before this permit nonsense.

[tuckermtn]

Was at the Lancaster meeting last night- good turnout, and the DES folks heard loud and clear that forestry should remain exempt from filing the more costly and less timely Standard Dredge and Fill permit.  Wagner, Landvest, Plum Creek- all the large timber management companies spoke plainly about how the increased permitting costs would effect timber management. 

To address the "repeat offender" situation where we have a few operators who continually violate timber harvesting and wetland laws, NHTOA is working with DRED and other agencies to ratchet up the fine schedule for repeat offenders.  Many of the laws that get introduced into the NH legislature to increase regulations are responses to seeing on the front page of the newspapers logging contractors (typically the same one or two operators) who chronically violate the laws.  The repeat offenders raise the cost for all of us making a living +  trying to do good work in the woods...

[JDeere]

If you think this is solely about water quality you have no idea what has been going on in NH for the last few years. DES wants to control all development. I have been involved in environmental consulting in NH for 20+ years and I have never seen so many power grabs with the environment as we have had the last few years. Our windsock Governor is totally owned by the extreme environmentalists. If you don't think things are out of control, read the NH shoreland protection act. I own about a mile of riverfront land and I risk a $20,000.00 per day fine for brush-hogging my land within 250' of the river without a $2,000.00 shoreland permit. These permits can take months to obtain for the simplest shoreland activity. A DES employee recently told me that DES has to keep coming up with more ways to generate funds or there will be cuts in staffing. If DES gets this permit rule in place loggers had better plan their cuts a year ahead because it truly may take that long to get a permit. It will be a cold day in hell when I get a permit to mow my own grass.

[mrnero]

""Was at the Lancaster meeting last night- good turnout, and the DES folks heard loud and clear that forestry should remain exempt from filing the more costly and less timely Standard Dredge and Fill permit.  Wagner, Landvest, Plum Creek- all the large timber management companies spoke plainly about how the increased permitting costs would effect timber management....." 

Maybe all the large timber management companies in NH should also be "exempt" from all enviromental laws,  speeding log trucks on the hyways and overload log trucks too !  That also puts a strain and is more costly to the timber management industry too. What U think !

[Tom]

mrnero, the argument is about money, not environmental concerns.   I've seen it happen here and cause a lot of hullabaloo.  Here's an example.   The industry has designed and operated from BMPs for generations. Sometimes new BMPs will lag, and there will be errors because we learn by doing.  It's not just the "big" timber companies, there are a lot of "one guy" operations, trying to feed a family too.

Then someone, usually not brought up in the industry, or even in the woods, picture a University Professor interested in mollywog minnows, comes along and is afraid that someone will kill the thing.  He has inroads to legislators (they all drink at the same bar, so to speak) so he tells them his concern.  They discover that there is this thing called BMP's that everyone should follow, and they make the assumption that everybody doesn't.  So, to correct the world, the University Professor and his lawyer friend legislators, cause a big hullabaloo and convince the public that the loggers are bad and will destroy the world unless they are curbed. They print these BMPs  for everyone to see, as if they invented them, and make them Law with fines and penalties of incarceration.  Then to identify the people who should obey their law, they install permits and charge to support the administration of them. But, the general fund gets low, other professors have concerns, new laws are made and the permit costs continue to rise to support the administration.

Mom and Pop have five acres on the other side of a wet-weather creek.  They have been tending it for 60 years and have finally decided to use the trees to take that leisurely vacation to Miami that they always wanted. The problem begins when the logger finds that the permit and materials required by law to cross the creek are greater than the trees are worth on the market.  So, the trees go uncut and Mom and Pop's 60 year efforts are for nothing.  All of this to insure, to the legislatures, that the BMPs that the loggers and Foresters were responsible for creating in the first place, are followed. Nothing has changed, other than the land isn't used, the farmer lost a crop, the logger went broke, Forester lost his credence, the mill didn't get the wood, and you, the home builder, will have to get your lumber from China.... where there are no BMPs.

When the dust settles, everybody is out of work except for the legislators, the lawyers and the University Professor. 

Later in life, the lawyer has a lot of money to invest.  He sees a 5 acre piece on the other side of a wet-weather creek.  The owners have died and the children don't want it because the work to keep it is more than it's worth and more than they can afford.  Property taxes are eating them up.

The lawyer buys the property for a song, digs deep into his funds and convinces his co-horts that it is a good deal. They get together, cross the creek, cut down the trees, install sewage and water lines, pave roads, build houses and make a fortune in an industry in which they could afford to belong.  The wet-weather creek is bridged with a fine concrete structure that the State offered to help pay for..... you see, they had all this money in the general fund from some permits that were smartly designed by the far-seeing ones in the society......

Well, now the trees are gone.  The mollywog, it was found, wasn't endangered anyway, the land has been truly deforested because it is now a housing development and will never return to its former use.  Mom and Pop and the kids and lawyer and legislators are gone and nobody remembers the trees that once stood there.

The older one becomes, the more of it he sees.  It's only obvious to the older eyes because they've seen and remembered.  When those eyes are gone, so are the memories and those who never experienced the original become the historians and base their reality on what they've seen.

The real conundrum is that the University Professor's education may have been paid for by a father who had a lumber yard and a grandfather who was a Forester (who helped to create BMP's), and a great-grandfather who was a sawmiller and great-great-grandfather who was a logger (who looked at this little beautiful, 5 acre piece of land across a wet weather creek and decided that he should buy it and plant some trees on it for later generations.)

[chevytaHOE5674]

Maybe all the large timber management companies in NH should also be "exempt" from all enviromental laws,

Would be my guess that those large timber companies are certified by some third party organization either SFI, FSC, etc. Those third party organizations have environmental regs that don't have 5k permits attached to them, and my guess would be they are as strict as the state regs will be in your area. Therefor all this state permit will do is create revenue for somebody's pockets, while taking money from the logger, landowner, forester, gas station, trucker, auto parts store etc. 

[4genlgr]

AMEN! TOM

I could really get in a pi----match but i won't. people have wood lots for many reasons. mine hopfully are for my retirement and to hand down to the kids, but every time the  law makers come up with a new way to make it more costly to hold on to the less likely it is to happen.
 this is the third or fourth cut on some of this land in the notheast and is is probably the most envriomental friendly one of all
enforce the regs we have, they will do the job
oh and by the way keep your atv and big mudder pick up out of the brooks and streams
you can do your part for water quality too

[Tom]

mrnero,
I just wanted to make a note to you personally that others could read.  I admire you for your interest and your involvement.  Not too many folks in your area that are in your age range care enough to go to those meetings.  They are dreadfully boring things.  Usually the anger of both sides calms during the meeting because the maturity of both sides are wanting to keep it in order.  That's a good thing, but the youth are expecting some outspoken ideas and might not come to the next meeting when there are none.

I've been to State Property tax meetings here where the State Senators are asking for input to change the rules and make  being a citizen affordable again.  Did you know that we have Bed and Breakfast businesses, restaurants, retail shops located in the "wrong" place that have had their property taxes increased over 300 fold in the last 5 years?  Government wonders why there are no jobs. 
What is the excuse?

Well, part of the problem is that we are governed by people who have lost the difference in definition of "governed" and "ruled".   We are also a nation of transients and are prone, for some reason or another, to drag those things, from which we are trying to escape, to the new place, that we think we must fix.

Big city types move to get out of the rat race and move to the woods, where the scenery is pristine.  Then they have to have a barbershop, bakery, doctor, Wal-mart and Home Depot within walking distance so they build roads and sidewalks.  Needing to pay for that, they get themselves elected, under the auspices of "growth and development" and begin to lay the groundwork for making their new "Digs" be just like the old ones.  The first thing you know, there are no trees and the landscape is covered in strip malls and gated communities where people alienate themselves from the "riff-raff". 

It doesn't take long and people forget, or don't care, about what they've done.

I'm 67 years-old.  Just a youngster, really.  But, when I was a child, I thought nothing of carrying my shotgun down the street to the gunsmith.  The hardware store owner broke a box of .410 shells and sold them to me one at a time because I couldn't afford the whole box.  I rode my bicycle to the river, alone, to fish.  Granddaddy seldom locked the door and he left his keys in the car.  I dare say that none of that could happen there today, and I can only speak for 55 years, or so.

One hundred years ago, that's in your great granddad's  and maybe your granddad's time, Houston, Dallas and Fort Worth were still "The Wild West".    New York was still "The Melting Pot", Chicago was still the recipient of cattle drives, Port St. Lucie, Florida didn't exist, Fort Drum Florida was larger than the county seat (It's practically gone).  Civil War Veterans were still the Marshals of parades, we were just realizing what we had done to the forests and were still trying to dry up the swamps.  Los Angeles was booming with a population of 100,000.  WWI, the war that was to end all wars was getting ready to happen and WWII, the war of the greatest advancement on earth and who's Hero's we salute today, wasn't even a dream. It was a day of Model T's and horses.  Yet, not so long ago that you haven't, probably, talked with some of the people who lived it.

We talk of slower times, but we've lived with our foot on the accelerator.   We've lost track of neighbors and towns, the ability to live as we wanted, and replaced it with confining laws and big Government.  We rely more and more on someone else to define what we can do.  We have created a niche in all of our governments for controlling everything that someone else thinks we should be doing.  I heard, though I can't prove it, that 70% of the population of the USA is on a Government payroll.  That doesn't include Social Security. I've heard that over 10% of the population is in the Federal Government, alone.

Do you know that there was a time when the county road grader would smooth your driveway if he was working in the neighborhood?  The Garbageman carried your trash cans from the backyard to the garbage truck and returned them to your back yard and when our Garbage man got sick, we children took him flowers at the hospital.  Neighbors mowed each other's lawns, visited on the front porch and held conversations on the street corners.

I only mention this because it is people like you who can get a handle on this Government-gone-wild life we lead now.  It's you who will see through the permitting, charging, controlling, taxing, ever-growing, governments and return the country to a life-style where your neighbor can be an entrepreneur, where he can afford to create jobs, put neighbors to work, so that they can create their own wealth.

Have the foresight to know that living on a handout isn't success, Freedom isn't free, health is our individual responsibility, Doctors, again, live by the Hippocratic Oath and not the "I have the most".

You can never have these things when all aspects of your life are controlled and mandated by a government.  Permits are just taxes in disguise, taxes that the government must levy to continue its upward spiral. You see, governments aren't really a big business, even if we think of them as such. They don't make money, they create money and take money.  When you take the people who "make" the money out of the equation, there is no place for the government to turn. Government, unfortunately, hasn't figured that out yet.

So, thanks to you for thinking. Being 24 years old doesn't automatically make you wrong, but neither does the awareness of a few years make you right.  Go to the meetings.  Learn what the arguments are really about.  Don't look at the world as a speedboat clipping the tops of the waves, look at the depth of the lake.

When someone says "raise taxes", don't be one who forgets who makes the money.  When someone wants a law, make sure that it isn't made for other people.

Stick with it and think.  Make us think.  Keep your eyes open.  One day you just might be the one to teach the people of this nation how to live again.  I think it has been forgotten.

[GRANITEstateMP]

Very well said Tom.  Sometimes it's hard to see the forest through the trees.