ATTN: NH Foresters and Loggers

[mrnero]

Thanks for clarifying your original post. This new stream crossing regulation now seems to be even better than I orginally thought.
(1): NH DES will monitor the locations which wasn't required by law back in 1995
(2); NH rangers will attempt to visit every permitted site which wasn't required
       by law back in 1995.
(3); ..failer to adhere to BMP's ; resulting in stricter automatic violations which
       wasn't required by law back in 1995.
(3); Heavy'r fines for wet land violations which wasn't required by law back in 1995

This new wet land crossing law is great. If this passes, We should have more protection and more enforcement against the sloppy logging/harvesting violators that land abutters encountered in the past.
I think I'll write a letter of support to NHDES tomorrow. Thanks

[Jeff]

Hopefully that letter will be nullified by all the people with true experience and knowledge with such matters standing up against more unneeded and unwanted Government regulation.

[Mooseherder]

Hopefully that letter will be nullified by all the people with true experience and knowledge with such matters standing up against more unneeded and unwanted Government regulation.

I think he should write them a Poem.

[Ironwood]

Well, I just happened upon this, how interesting. Just for the record I am a fairly stout enviro type, but $5000 RIDICULUS. Prohibitively expensive and a shame.

 More Goberment, less individual rights.

 Ironwood

[red oaks lumber]

i think the goverment should pass a law that prohibits mothernature from having heavy rains that cause mudding of streams and rivers, causing fishing spots to be lost and wrecking the property values of abutting land owners. and if she violates these laws a fine should be in order. sound like a good idea? the problem with our country is we don't have enough laws, we need a law that says we need laws. the best stymulis package this country needs is have more laws and regulations then hire all it's citizens to patrol looking for law breakers, the unemployment rate would drop to "0" but the sad thing is , some people will still break the law.
 so maybe we already have to many laws, hell i'm probably breaking one right now without even knowing it, laws don't protect things people do!!!

[PAFaller]

I can see how this permit will make landowners who have mixed or worse feelings about logging operations feel warm and fuzzy inside. My question is WHY DOES IT NEED TO COST $5000!!! Take more money away from landowners, but I can almost guarantee the state will still be short staffed and not actually follow through with the monitoring and everything else they 'claim' they are going to do. As a logger I dont see the need for it, considering BMPS are required and that topic has already been beat to death in this thread. That said I could deal with it if the cost was reasonable, but 5000 dollars for what?? Thats just obscene especially knowing that over the long haul it will be like most state programs. Makes a few folks happy in the beginning, but then the money gets dumped into the general fund and miraculously vanishes.

[mrnero]

I can see how this permit will make landowners who have mixed or worse feelings about logging operations feel warm and fuzzy inside. My question is WHY DOES IT NEED TO COST $5000!!! Take more money away from landowners, but I can almost guarantee the state will still be short staffed and not actually follow through with the monitoring and everything else they 'claim' they are going to do. As a logger I dont see the need for it, considering BMPS are required and that topic has already been beat to death in this thread. That said I could deal with it if the cost was reasonable, but 5000 dollars for what?? Thats just obscene especially knowing that over the long haul it will be like most state programs. Makes a few folks happy in the beginning, but then the money gets dumped into the general fund and miraculously vanishes.

This NH wetland logging and or the $5,000.00 permit cost only applies when logging in a wetland/steam watershed area. I believe if you are logging in a dry track of land, the $5,000 + permit cost doesnt apply. I believe thats a fair regulation to protect the abutters from wetland enviroment runoff from sloppy logging operation. The present dryland logging operations in NH, does not present a problem. Most or all of the FF members has stated on this topic, that there should be more enforcement than having more logging/harvesting laws. Maybe these $5,000 permits will help to employ more enforcement personal to watch for the sloppy wetland logging violators. Furthermore, this NH regulation does not apply to out of state residents. Sorry.

[Tom]

If $5000 works better, $50000 should work grand!  I vote for $100000 and will watch from here.  It should be good. 

[chevytaHOE5674]

Maybe these $5,000 permits will help to employ more enforcement personal to watch for the sloppy wetland logging violators.

That 5k will just go into the general fund, used for politicians private plane trips, and vacations.

And the 5k permit fee will force many small time loggers to not follow the rules and fly under the radar. 

[mrnero]

Maybe these $5,000 permits will help to employ more enforcement personal to watch for the sloppy wetland logging violators.

That 5k will just go into the general fund, used for politicians private plane trips, and vacations.

And the 5k permit fee will force many small time loggers to not follow the rules and fly under the radar. 

We dont have small time loggers in this region. If they do violate the rules or fly under radar, there only going to do it once. Their sloppy harvesting games are over.

[John Mc]

We dont have small time loggers in this region. If they do violate the rules or fly under radar, there only going to do it once. Their sloppy harvesting games are over.

No small-time loggers in NH? Where did you get that impression?

As for the statement "If they do violate the rules or fly under radar, there only going to do it once. Their sloppy harvesting games are over." ... dream on. What makes you think they'll pay any more attention to this law than all of the other ones? The $5000 as you described it is a fee, not a fine. They're supposed to pay that regardless of whether they break the law or not. You've just a logger even more incentive to fly under the radar, even if they intend to follow BMPs.

[Jeff]

I'm afraid we are so far failing at being de-programmers in this case.

[red oaks lumber]

ok mrnero,
 lets say they pass this $5,000 "permit" and the logger gets one, does his job, when the job is completed without any damage done to the area would you think it is fair to give that "permit "money back to the logger? or should the state just keep it.
 or for more incentive to the logger to do the best job he can, when the jobs complete to the satisfaction of the state, he gets a bonus for a job done right. that should make your group of people happy for saving "abbuting" landowners  values. what ya think?

[woodmills1]

living here I would say it is nearly impossible to retrain an out of state land holder who lives in massa......  2     hits



I would ask him what his real job is and why he is here talking with us?

[stonebroke]

I'm afraid we are so far failing at being de-programmers in this case.

Jeff, would it not be nice to be young again and know everything.

Stonebroke

[John Mc]

You know, while I don't agree with mrnero, I do have to admire that he is discussing this here on this site, where he knows opinions are going to be stacked against him. At first, I thought he was just trolling, trying to stir things up and get a rise out of us. I don't get the impression that is the case, however.

To often, we tend to share our opinions only with groups that already think just like us (preaching to the choir?) At least mrnero is getting out away from his comfort zone and getting some real discussion, rather than just talking to a group that he already knows will support his views...

And we do seem to have something in common: that stream crossings should be "done right". It's just a matter of not agreeing on what will accomplish that objective.

[Jeff]

Ya gotta agree with that. 

[mrnero]

ok mrnero,
 lets say they pass this $5,000 "permit" and the logger gets one, does his job, when the job is completed without any damage done to the area would you think it is fair to give that "permit "money back to the logger? or should the state just keep it.
 Answer: Where do some of you come up with these brilliant idears that you have ?? Do you get re-emburst form your homeowners policy, auto policies; workmans comp; healty insurance and etc if there is no annual claims/losses???

 or for more incentive to the logger to do the best job he can, when the jobs complete to the satisfaction of the state, he gets a bonus for a job done right. that should make your group of people happy for saving "abbuting" landowners  values. what ya think?
Answer; For the past 15 years or so, the fly by night donkies, that called themselves harvesting loggers or what never, went out an purchased used ($15.00) chain saws and called themselves lumberjacks and didn't have a clue of what they were doing. They had a free ride in wetland harvesting and all they thought of was themselves ans no one else. Now the shoe is on the other foot for protection to abutting owners.  Apparently some of your ff members forestry personal and harvesting crews dont like it. You can only thank your previously harvesting personal for their sloppy logging actions which created newer and current harvesting laws for abutting property owners.
   I believe the intent of this new wetland law is to prevent future wetland enviroment damage by having high permits to discurage logging in wetland areas. I think this is only the beginning. Hopefully down the road, harvesting crews will be required to post an insurance bond their logging operations and be required a million dollar liability insurance policy. Then I think this will make "my group of people " happy.

[mrnero]

living here I would say it is nearly impossible to retrain an out of state land holder who lives in massa......  2     hits
Answer; Mr woodmills1; I might be an out of stater in your eyes, but I was born and raised in Ossipee,NH; served as a medic in the arm forces and I also inherited by parents estate which I'm currently sole-ownership of NH property, regardless if I reside in MA, Irac or any other place.



I would ask him what his real job is and why he is here talking with us?

Answer; My real job in a EMT personal and my job is to save lives. Whats your real job??  I'm here talking to you because I'm a member of FF. Do any of you have a problem with that ? If so, let me know. Thanks

[Tom]

I like the idea of all abutting landowners being required by law to purchase insurance against the desecration of their property.

Let's don't let this little teat-a-tat get personal now.