ATTN: NH Foresters and Loggers

[woodmills1]

so meanwhile I was thinking of planting some orages and then flooding the market to replace my lost tree based income

[critter]

 

     nero good preaching, you practice what i preach. if 5k permit goes threw
     there will be plenty of cheap land for sale. it will have no income value to
     the resident owner you still haven't said what great enviromental damage
     you suffered

[Gary_C]

That's it, keep pressing him. I suspect the damage is emotional duress, but that is not really a legal reason for damages. So there must be more to it than just the absolute horror of seeing dirty water go past your property. Because that probably happens every time it rains and not just when some logger is nearby to blame.

[beenthere]

Amazing the misguided ill-thought-out plans these enviro's can come up with, that are simply back-door laws to control the management of someone else's resources, in this case not cutting trees.  They could care less what the effects are on landowners who depend on their resources to pay the bills, or on the effects of not managing good timber.

When they inherit the property (don't have to work for it), and are too young to have things figured out, they just make immature decisions.

Lets hope the lawmakers in NH can see the light on this one. Mrnero seems lost and his mission finally is coming to light.
So "let them eat cake", he seems to say.

Tom, there is plenty of dry land forest in this region, that can be managed and harvested that doen't require this new wetland permit. Whether this new (million dollar) wetland regulation does become law, there would not be any
impact to the logging industry in this region, "providing they continue to harvest timber from dry land areas only" and stay away from harvesting wetlands, and buffer zones near streams and lakes areas.

[chevytaHOE5674]

That's it, keep pressing him. I suspect the damage is emotional duress, but that is not really a legal reason for damages. So there must be more to it than just the absolute horror of seeing dirty water go past your property. Because that probably happens every time it rains and not just when some logger is nearby to blame.

Everytime it rains or snows the river through my land turns red from the runoff. I need to file a lawsuit against mother nature for the damage it is causing me.



Mnero by "having ties to the industry" I mean spend years in the woods making your living off the land. Go work for a logger or forester or mill and see how it works. Get familiar with the CURRENT laws and regulations, and how they are practiced.

[mrnero]

I noodled around this morning to get an update on the proposed changes to the stream crossing laws, but can't seem to find anything new

On the NH timber land owners site
I found this statement , but even on the NHDES site I cannot find anything else.


Stream Crossing Rules NHDES Postpones hearings – seeks more public input
At NHTOA’s urging the NH Department of Environmental Services is postponing the hearings on their proposed Stream Crossing Rules. Although the rules, as approved by a diverse stakeholder group last year, were not intended to negatively impact forest management the latest version would. “As proposed, this rule change will have a devastating impact on New Hampshire’s timber harvesting community” said Jasen Stock, Executive Director of the New Hampshire Timberland Owners Association. Besides complicating the administrative/permitting process, in their current form the proposed rules would make the use of any round or closed bottom culvert on a stream wider than 5-feet that drains more than 20 acres uneconomical for any forestry operation. NHDES hopes to have a revised version of the rules proposal available later this week from which they will be taking public comment until November 20th. All comments should be mailed to;

Woodmill1, you didn't finish your post. Mail comments to where??
e.g. ; " ...NHDES hopes to have a revised version of the rules proposal available later this week from which they will be taking public comment until November 20th. All comments should be mailed to;

[red oaks lumber]

nero,
 now your calling loggers morons, i think thats like the pot calling the kettle black.
 last night it accured to me that i am a "tree hugger".. when i'm in the woods before i cut down a tree i always reach both arms around the tree to see if it's big enough to cut, so i guess that makes me a "tree hugger".
 do us all a favor mrnero find a different forum to push your narrow minded ideas for env. control, this forum is for people trying to make a living with forest products...

[mrnero]

nero,
 now your calling loggers morons, i think thats like the pot calling the kettle black.
 last night it accured to me that i am a "tree hugger".. when i'm in the woods before i cut down a tree i always reach both arms around the tree to see if it's big enough to cut, so i guess that makes me a "tree hugger".
 do us all a favor mrnero find a different forum to push your narrow minded ideas for env. control, this forum is for people trying to make a living with forest products...

".......mrnero find a different forum to push your narrow minded ideas for env. control..." Sorry to hear Mr RedOak that my posts is getting under your skin. An old forester told me once that, If you can stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

[Jeff]

do us all a favor mrnero find a different forum to push your narrow minded ideas for env. control, this forum is for people trying to make a living with forest products...

EXCUSE ME?   I do believe I and the other Forestry Forum admins will decide if someone needs to go somewhere else.  I am the founder and the owner and the ultimate decision maker on who these forums are for. I would have quietly informed you of that as I edited your post, but since it was seen by many before I could, yer getting the public version.  This forum is just as much for mrnero as it is you, in fact maybe more so. I don't appreciate a guest in my house telling another guess that he has no business here. 

And mrnero, please lets keep it civil as we continue to try to un-brainwash you eh?   Don't let that guys post above influence the way you conduct yourself here. Its not the way we do things.  Thanks!.

[bull]

Mr nero, I wrote a while back that you should stick around for a while and see what you could learn, you have stuck around. Well its 30 plus days !!!!
Could you please list what you have learned positive and negative *( without attitude )* !!!!
 I am actually interested and will respond to your response !!

[red oaks lumber]

sorry for wanting you to leave mrnero,
 maybe this issue hits to close to home, it just seems that over the years little by little it starts out small but, like cancer it keeps growing and growing, our way of life is being challenged and changed to suit the ever growing group or organization. about 3 yrs ago property 1/4 mile from my sawmill was sold and subdivided  making 22 lots 3 acres in size, mind you we live in the country same location for 35 yrs. anyway a couple of potential buyers of lots started a small movement wanting my mill shut down for peace and solitude, none of my neibors have a problem with my operation, luckly the town board was not having any of their doings. so, weather it is a wetland permit, banning o.w.b. protecting the grey wolf ect. there must be an equal balance.
 ya mrnero, you really do p*** me off but, i do understand your feelings on this matter, your runoff is to you what them wanting to have my mill closed is to me. so i think we can agree to disagree

[DanG]

Mrnero, what kind of vehicle do you drive?

[chevytaHOE5674]

Mrnero, what kind of vehicle do you drive?

Guessing a Prius or Aveo or something along those lines.

[mrnero]

Mr nero, I wrote a while back that you should stick around for a while and see what you could learn, you have stuck around. Well its 30 plus days !!!!
Could you please list what you have learned positive and negative *( without attitude )* !!!!
 I am actually interested and will respond to your response !!

First of all, it dont seem its only been 30 days, seems like its been a lot longer than that . Anyway, I havent had much time to read other previous topic post which I think I will also find interesting. I like the photos that I've seen posted on FF from furniture and carpentry professionals which I think is top quality craftmanship. Its truly amazing how you can start with nothing and produce a work of art. I could go on and on,like a broken record,  but I think you and most of the ff members have heard it before. I also like the support from many ff members that offers their knowledge to a member that needs help or info. on posted topics. So far, I think this is one h*ll of a powerful site and I think I will enjoy staying and reading other ff furture topics. I think most of the ff members will agree, Its been one heck of a ride in the past few weeks, but I enjoyed hearing the pros and cons. True, its been more cons than pros. Oh well !  Thats life !

[mrnero]

sorry for wanting you to leave mrnero,
 maybe this issue hits to close to home, it just seems that over the years little by little it starts out small but, like cancer it keeps growing and growing, our way of life is being challenged and changed to suit the ever growing group or organization. about 3 yrs ago property 1/4 mile from my sawmill was sold and subdivided  making 22 lots 3 acres in size, mind you we live in the country same location for 35 yrs. anyway a couple of potential buyers of lots started a small movement wanting my mill shut down for peace and solitude, none of my neibors have a problem with my operation, luckly the town board was not having any of their doings. so, weather it is a wetland permit, banning o.w.b. protecting the grey wolf ect. there must be an equal balance.
 ya mrnero, you really do p*** me off but, i do understand your feelings on this matter, your runoff is to you what them wanting to have my mill closed is to me. so i think we can agree to disagree

True, its better being p*ssed off than being p*ssed on. Peace

[mrnero]

Mrnero, what kind of vehicle do you drive?

1999 tahoe, last of the 2 doors. I get under 50 miles per gal
Its enviromental dark blue in color  and I use summer air in my tires year round. Two more payments and I own it 

[woodmills1]

I did not put the adress for comments in my post because all comments needed to be submitted by Nov 20 which came and went long before I put up the post.  My point was that I could not find any more recent info about the revisions to the stream crossings.

[DanG]

Congrats on the impending payoff of the truck, mrnero.

Now I'm going to assume that the speedometer on that truck goes up to 120mph, implying that the truck will go that fast.  How would you feel about it if you had to pay for a 120mph speeding ticket every time you enter a roadway?  If that was the case, you probably wouldn't drive very much, would you?  That absurd scenario is exactly the same thing you are proposing with this oppressive stream crossing rule...fining someone in advance for something they may or may not do in the future.

The stream crossing issue doesn't only come up when you are logging wetlands.  There are plenty of situations where you have to cross a stream when dry-land logging too.  It is plain to me that this rule was written with the intention of stifling logging in general, by a bunch of whiners who haven't a clue of what good Forestry practices are all about.

[mrnero]

Congrats on the impending payoff of the truck, mrnero.

Now I'm going to assume that the speedometer on that truck goes up to 120mph, implying that the truck will go that fast.  How would you feel about it if you had to pay for a 120mph speeding ticket every time you enter a roadway?  If that was the case, you probably wouldn't drive very much, would you?  That absurd scenario is exactly the same thing you are proposing with this oppressive stream crossing rule...fining someone in advance for something they may or may not do in the future.
Answer; Let me see, If I was to get a 120 mile per hr speeding ticket every time I entered the roadways or what we call as "public right of way" I would then probably start to consider using the bike trails to drive on.

The stream crossing issue doesn't only come up when you are logging wetlands.  There are plenty of situations where you have to cross a stream when dry-land logging too.  It is plain to me that this rule was written with the intention of stifling logging in general, by a bunch of whiners who haven't a clue of what good Forestry practices are all about.

Answer; "There are plenty of situations where you have to cross a stream when dry-land logging too." (e.g.; crossing a wetland area to log or harvest logs from a dry area. That is an excellet point that I didn't consider before. This would be simular to the same scenario as I seen on the discovery channel as logging in Alaska. I gather, its more costly to build wood lot roads and apply for wetland crossing permits in Alaska, so therefore they fly the logs out to a landing that accessable by logging trucks via a helicopter. If this logging method been working for years in Alaska, then this same harvesting method should work here in NH and maybe other parts of the country. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I also saw this same helicopter logging practises in western Canada a few months ago. I'm sure there will allways be a better solution in the logging industry than we presently have.
PS; btw, you are right, I really dont have a clue or experience on any good logging or forestry practices. I guess most of you allready know that by now.

[Tom]

C'mon DanG!   you're trying to put individual responsibilities into this. Where is all the money going to come from if you keep doing that? I  hadn't thought of the speeding ticket thing.  If those toll booths get put up at the border and the tariffs imposed, that fine against the possibility of exceeding the speed limit could be imposed there at the toll boot.  Furthermore, if it were to be called a permit (for the use of the road) then fines imposed at the time of the speeding violation could still  be imposed.   There's lots of money to be had here, assuming that the borders will continue to be crossed and that current population remains.  

Have you looked at some of the opportunities provided by the Mass.(es)?  They have 3.2 million acres of private forests as opposed to 285,000 acres of State Forests.  So, the imposition of strict rules in the State forests would be easy to get and they would, by default, fall over into the private sector where all of that money is being held, just for the taking. "The Department of Conservation and Recreation is accepting applications and nominations for a member vacancy of the Forester Licensing Board.  ...Duties of Board members include examining the credentials of license applications and investigate license complaints on a volunteer basis."  That already insures that Foresters can be held beneath the thumb of the agency.

"In April 2009, Scientific Certification Systems (SCS), a certification body accredited by the
Forest Stewardship Council (FSC), was retained by the Executive Office of Energy and
Environmental Affairs to conduct a re-certification evaluation of the 550,000 acres of forest lands
managed by the Department of Conservation and Recreation (DCR) and the Division of Fisheries
and Wildlife (DFW). Certification by the FSC is professional acknowledgment that the
landowner is practicing responsible forest management that is environmentally appropriate,
socially beneficial, and economically viable."  It would be just a small move to include the private acreage and intimidate those landowners into higher taxes.  See how this works?  You just have to think ahead a little.  As long as it's the Government that is Allowing the ownership, freedom, or whatever, rather than the individual, being assumed to just have it, then the impositions become much easier.  After a while they just lay down and give up, kinda like an Opossum when you stomp your foot.

"Please contact Tom Ryan at 413-784-1828 ext. 123 or tom.ryan@state.ma.us if you
have questions concerning the application-nomination process or the Forester
Licensing Board duties and responsibilities."  Getting lined up with this board might insure that you have an easier time holding onto your Forester License. There seems to be one seat open.

Do you want to be a Forest Steward?

To enroll in the Stewardship Program you will engage a licensed consulting forester...

Individuals, joint owners, groups and associations, non-profits, long term lease holders, and corporations without publicly traded stock are all eligible. Owners principally engaged in the primary processing of raw wood products are not eligible.

There is no minimum acreage, except that properties of less than 10 acres are not eligible for Forest Stewardship Plan preparation cost-sharing. Participating landowners may own a maximum of 1,000 acres, (or up to 5,000 acres with a special waiver).

I know this all sounds like a helping hand, but you won't find this information readily available to the public.  They have to know where to look.  So, any rules imposed could happen well before the public knew of them.  Then, when the need for funds arises, the permits are already in place and all that would be needed would be the raising of the tariff.   Easy, huh?

I know we don't have much of a chance of getting involved in MA politics.  Lord only knows, they would hold 2 1/2 strikes against a Southern appearance anyway.  But we have this Mrnero fellow who is already convinced that the Government taking money is a valid tack, so maybe we could get aligned with him and get some kind of consultant fees, when he gets in a position of authority.  I'll see you in the back room of the meeting hall later and we can discuss it.