ATTN: NH Foresters and Loggers

[Tom]

Well don't leave me now.  We have a lot of planning to do.  Heck we could probably shut Rhode Island down all together.   See, if you were to raise your border tolls, you could stop almost anybody from coming though. I'm not even sure your banking industry could handle all of the money .    and... and... we could get the State DOT to issue $5,000 permits for leaving the State, just in case someone tried to skip through the toll booth.  This is sounding better all along. 

[chevytaHOE5674]

What do you mean that this wetland permit (5K) will do nothing to stop or regulate them ?? Please explain.

If the logger was knowingly doing something illegal, why would he have filed a 5k permit? By trying to fly under the radar he was hoping to get away with it, and did for a short time.  Since you don't actually have a tie to the industry I guess I don't think you will understand.  But people will ALWAYS do illegal things no matter what.

Murder is illegal and carrys hefty penalties with it. yet it happens everyday. NOTHING will stop criminals.

A better solution is to educate the landowners so that they don't provide work for these "sloppy loggers".

[Tom]

That might work too, Cheby, but think of the revenues lost.  There's money to be taken here. Logging and Forestery are just a small start.  Think of the Abutting industries that would benefit by curtailing the ability of the Citizens of NH to access their trees.   There's ??  or maybe ?? or.... well, I can't think of anything right off hand, but the Government could sure use the money. There's roads to build, and .. no, that would take logging.   There's jails to build.  Yeah, that's it.  You have to have the jails to hold all of the nasty loggers that might break the law. But, that would mean that land would have to be cleared and....  Well, how about a big National Park?   We could charge to go into the park.  Just think, Ten, twenty dollars a day, it wouldn't take much time before we'd have enough for a jail. Of Course all those people in the woods might make a trail or dirty a stream, so maybe $20 isn't enough.  Maybe $500 would be more like it.  That would deter all but the rich from going into the woods where they might break something. It would be good for the economy too. Just think of all the things that could be done with all that money.    Just think.  This would be one of the greatest States for Photography.  Photographers would abound.  Think of all the money.. well, as long as they didn't get silver in the streams or drop their film boxes in the woods.  Maybe we should consider a permit for Photographers.  What would it take to disenchant them from dropping their film boxes, $5?   Nope it would have to be something that would make them not even think of it.  Maybe $200 would do it.  Yeah, $200 a  day would be a good start. Hmmm.  I'm sure there is money to be made here somewhere, I'm just not seeing it yet. 

[stonebroke]

Tom

You make me laugh so hard. He just does not get it!!!

Stonebroke

[Gary_C]

           Nice try Tom.

He is the new Paul Revere riding to warn every one, "the loggers are coming."

Or is it a new style Robin Hood, taking from the people and giving it to the needy government? 

[critter]

  nero bfore your time the only real job in ossipee valley was to work
  in the woods .or in one of the many saw mills in the area then they
  started to shut down .ossipee lumber the bigest, kennett company,
  the big planer mill, thomas lumber, bermingham lumber, and john  
  f chick and son mill .just a few of the bigger ones they only employed
  half the valley if you add the woods crews .kept every strore and gas
  station alive in the area .the gov. bought all the dairy farms to keep
  the price of milk high and butcherd the cows so there was no need
  for farms any more .so people had to sell thier land.N.H having some
  of the lowest taxs in the ne. and no sale tax it was aheck of a buy for
  all of the  flatlanders .they came by the droves you see in taxachuess
  were the wages are ten times that of a N.H. resident. bought every
  thing around.timber co. turned into reality co. and they filled every wet
  land and bridged every stream there was to acomadate all the new
  (residents).they live in thier summer home,reg. their car in N.H. and work
  full time in mass.claim full res.so they dont have to pay mass.taxs,make
  ten times the wage of a real N.H. resident while it makes everyone else
  cost go up for support schools, fire ,sewer police,ins. oya nero i forgot
  not every flatlander does this .so you should not be in this group such
  as one bad logger. how much great stream front property do you have to
  have had such eviromental damage to your land thousands of feet or what.
  there are streams and beaverbogs they come and go.brookes and rivers
  are forever.from wakefeild hill to pinkham notch there is a water shed that
  you or no 5k permit is going to control. in the spring the snow melt makes
  the saco, swift and ossipee rivers run ten to twenty feet over their banks.
  they take out bridges ,roads,summer homes ,docks and thousands of trees
  pluse unmentionable erosion. they take away oil tanks lawn mowers bqs.
  anything that is twenty feet under flood stage and a would be hazard.
  i think that the only fare way to fix this is that any body with property on
  a water shed,stream, brook or river should be taxed an addtional thousand
  dollars a foot for their land that borders water. if your land dos'nt no problem
  your tax will be as allways .you sholdn't lose for those people. some people
  think that money solves all problems.  sorta like our gov. give it out and
  just print some more no problem.
  

[Tom]

Could be, Gary, but think about this a minute.  This could be a Bonanza!  just think of the market when they cut themselves out of the production. You could charge what you wanted to service them and if they thought it was too much, you still have the markets of the other States that are protecting their industries and inventories with good management.   Just tell them to go jump.  Heck they might even have their hands full with the Abutting States that they alienate from the producers.

[mrnero]

What do you mean that this wetland permit (5K) will do nothing to stop or regulate them ?? Please explain.

If the logger was knowingly doing something illegal, why would he have filed a 5k permit? By trying to fly under the radar he was hoping to get away with it, and did for a short time.  Since you don't actually have a tie to the industry I guess I don't think you will understand.  But people will ALWAYS do illegal things no matter what.

Murder is illegal and carrys hefty penalties with it. yet it happens everyday. NOTHING will stop criminals.

A better solution is to educate the landowners so that they don't provide work for these "sloppy loggers".

"If the logger was knowingly doing something illegal, why would he have filed a 5k permit?" I dont think I fully understand your question !  I'm assuming you mean if this wetland regulation is in effect ?? I think if a logger intends to harvest logs in a wetland area with out applying for the permit first, then he is a moron and should be issued citations. On the other hand, if the logger tends to harvest logs on a wetland area without applying for a permit first, I think he is still a moron. I also think If a logger was knowingly doing something illegally, that still makes him a moron and I think only a moron would not file for a 5K permit. Now a fly by night logger that acts under the darkness of radar is also a moron. I think I replyed to your questions to the best of my 24 years of knowledge.
If it makes you feel any better, I could buy an old broken down sawmill some where and park it out back somewhere, so I could then have ties to this industry. But would it make any difference??
"People will alway do illegal things".."no matter what". You are right, I also have seen and heard alot of that in the forestry and log harvesting industry. But what do I know, I;m only 24 years old. Good Luck

[mrnero]

 nero bfore your time the only real job in ossipee valley was to work
  in the woods .or in one of the many saw mills in the area then they
  started to shut down .ossipee lumber the bigest, kennett company,
  the big planer mill, thomas lumber, bermingham lumber, and john  
  f chick and son mill .just a few of the bigger ones they only employed
  half the valley if you add the woods crews .kept every strore and gas
  station alive in the area .the gov. bought all the dairy farms to keep
  the price of milk high and butcherd the cows so there was no need
  for farms any more .so people had to sell thier land.N.H having some
  of the lowest taxs in the ne. and no sale tax it was aheck of a buy for
  all of the  flatlanders .they came by the droves you see in taxachuess
  were the wages are ten times that of a N.H. resident. bought every
  thing around.timber co. turned into reality co. and they filled every wet
  land and bridged every stream there was to acomadate all the new
  (residents).they live in thier summer home,reg. their car in N.H. and work
  full time in mass.claim full res.so they dont have to pay mass.taxs,make
  ten times the wage of a real N.H. resident while it makes everyone else
  cost go up for support schools, fire ,sewer police,ins. oya nero i forgot
  not every flatlander does this .so you should not be in this group such
  as one bad logger. how much great stream front property do you have to
  have had such eviromental damage to your land thousands of feet or what.
  there are streams and beaverbogs they come and go.brookes and rivers
  are forever.from wakefeild hill to pinkham notch there is a water shed that
  you or no 5k permit is going to control. in the spring the snow melt makes
  the saco, swift and ossipee rivers run ten to twenty feet over their banks.
  they take out bridges ,roads,summer homes ,docks and thousands of trees
  pluse unmentionable erosion. they take away oil tanks lawn mowers bqs.
  anything that is twenty feet under flood stage and a would be hazard.
  i think that the only fare way to fix this is that any body with property on
  a water shed,stream, brook or river should be taxed an addtional thousand
  dollars a foot for their land that borders water. if your land dos'nt no problem
  your tax will be as allways .you sholdn't lose for those people. some people
  think that money solves all problems.  sorta like our gov. give it out and
  just print some more no problem.
  

Good preaching, you should invest in spelllllcheckkk. Anyway, what does your post to me, have to do with todays enviromental wetland/stream crossing damage  ?

[mrnero]

Well don't leave me now.  We have a lot of planning to do.  Heck we could probably shut Rhode Island down all together.   See, if you were to raise your border tolls, you could stop almost anybody from coming though. I'm not even sure your banking industry could handle all of the money .    and... and... we could get the State DOT to issue $5,000 permits for leaving the State, just in case someone tried to skip through the toll booth.  This is sounding better all along. 

I think they raised the tolls twice this year. gota wait untill next year for border toll increases.

[Tom]

That's it, Nero.  Give him Heck!  What does he know?  

Now, getting back to this permit thing. I believe we might have something here.  Have you every thought of running for State Representative or maybe the State Senate?   When you get these permits run way up there, there is going to be a lot of loggers wanting to throw money your way, 'cause they're going to be trying to staty alive.  I'll bet you could have enough money in a year to retire.  You wouldn't even need to fill out a term.  Don't tell anybody I said that.  I wouldn't want to get you in trouble. but lookee here.  $5000 could be spread around and make a lot of folks happy before this is all over with.  And, when they finally go out of business, think of all the development land that will be available for a song.  If that's the tack then we need to be thinking about lowering some of those development and land taxes.  Not now, but later.  It's all going to take some timeing.

[Gary_C]

You are right Tom, but think of how bad we would all feel if his neighbors find out he was the cause of all this and we heard that one of our forum members was tarred and feathered n run out of town on a rail or even hung. That would be terrible.

Maybe a bigger hammer?

[mrnero]

That's it, Nero.  Give him Heck!  What does he know?  

Now, getting back to this permit thing. I believe we might have something here.  Have you every thought of running for State Representative or maybe the State Senate?   When you get these permits run way up there, there is going to be a lot of loggers wanting to throw money your way, 'cause they're going to be trying to staty alive.  I'll bet you could have enough money in a year to retire.  You wouldn't even need to fill out a term.  Don't tell anybody I said that.  I wouldn't want to get you in trouble. but lookee here.  $5000 could be spread around and make a lot of folks happy before this is all over with.  And, when they finally go out of business, think of all the development land that will be available for a song.  If that's the tack then we need to be thinking about lowering some of those development and land taxes.  Not now, but later.  It's all going to take some timeing.

Sorry, I'm not into politics. I'm going to cut logs and become a forester when I grow up.

[Tom]

That' s why I suggested running for office. That way it would look like he was doing all this for the betterment of the society.  That money could be absconded before anybody knew what happened.  

I have to go get ready for bed now. Have a Dr.'s appointment in the morning and have to get ready for it.  Y'all see what you can do to groom this little idea.  All that money in NH is just there for the taking if you can get them to shut the state down.    The deal is that the Government has to do it. That way all of the citizens will be affected and they will have no recourse.  Worse case is that all that competition will go away.  

[mrnero]

You are right Tom, but think of how bad we would all feel if his neighbors find out he was the cause of all this and we heard that one of our forum members was tarred and feathered n run out of town on a rail or even hung. That would be terrible.

Maybe a bigger hammer?

To late, my neighbors allready knows. Good try though

[Tom]

Nero!!  You can't do that?  How are you going to be a Forester in a State with no forestry?   Better sleep on this one a little.  We'll get back on it tomorrow when you mind is a little fresher.  

[mrnero]

Nero!!  You can't do that?  How are you going to be a Forester in a State with no forestry?   Better sleep on this one a little.  We'll get back on it tomorrow when you mind is a little fresher.  

Remember !!  I'm a MA resident. Where do you think the town named "brain_tree" came from ??

[Tom]

Oh yeah!  That does make it a bit difficult.  But what the heck.  Maybe we can take MA. down too.  I'll think on it some tonight.   Is Teddy's seat taken yet?

[mrnero]

Oh yeah!  That does make it a bit difficult.  But what the heck.  Maybe we can take MA. down too.  I'll think on it some tonight.   Is Teddy's seat taken yet?

Tom, there is plenty of dry land forest in this region, that can be managed and harvested that doen't require this new wetland permit. Whether this new (million dollar) wetland regulation does become law, there would not be any
impact to the logging industry in this region, "providing they continue to harvest timber from dry land areas only" and stay away from harvesting wetlands, and buffer zones near streams and lakes areas.

[woodmills1]

I noodled around this morning to get an update on the proposed changes to the stream crossing laws, but can't seem to find anything new

On the NH timber land owners site
I found this statement , but even on the NHDES site I cannot find anything else.


Stream Crossing Rules NHDES Postpones hearings – seeks more public input
At NHTOA’s urging the NH Department of Environmental Services is postponing the hearings on their proposed Stream Crossing Rules. Although the rules, as approved by a diverse stakeholder group last year, were not intended to negatively impact forest management the latest version would. “As proposed, this rule change will have a devastating impact on New Hampshire’s timber harvesting community” said Jasen Stock, Executive Director of the New Hampshire Timberland Owners Association. Besides complicating the administrative/permitting process, in their current form the proposed rules would make the use of any round or closed bottom culvert on a stream wider than 5-feet that drains more than 20 acres uneconomical for any forestry operation. NHDES hopes to have a revised version of the rules proposal available later this week from which they will be taking public comment until November 20th. All comments should be mailed to;