ATTN: NH Foresters and Loggers

[mrnero]

Wow! 

This is all about being victimized, sterotyping, and a few insults thrown in for good measure. One person (poor guy) that was victimized and now has all the answers on how to get revenge.

I was just victimized by this latest snowstorm. Can I get some revenge too?

But is this going anywhere useful? 

This is not about revenge, I just want to make sure it dont happen again to me and other NH land owners.
What does a snowstorm victim have to do with wetland logging ??
I think enviromental wetland damage runoff is a usefull subject. apparently, you don't !

[Ironwood]

Mrnero,

 Dude, just take it easy. 'round these parts you need to have a certain demenor (read constructive, cordial). That is how this place works. There is a TON of great stuff you can learn here (and things people can teach us, I have learned sooo much and continue to). I know your bitter and angry about your place, we get that. But none of here are connected to that. We ARE people trying to make a living, run businesses, feed our families. The point of much of this is, the "math" wont work for small land owners, and hence it is a law that will limit peoples ability to excercise there private property rights. I know you think many in the logging community are "the bad guys", I get that, as stated before, I am mostly an enviromental type, I have served on a Board of a Non-profit for ten years that promotes reuse of used building materials. I am VERY dedicated to enviro causes. I sometimes cringe at the stuff I see in the woods (sometimes even the cutting of a nice large stand of older growth, just saw that in Sept ). But this is what these folks do, this is their livelihood. I dont log, I build and design "creative reuse furniture", check out my gallery. Point is, just keep at a dull roar, you'll learn alot around here, it is a good place. If you don't, the reality is, your get tossed w/ the other folks who didn't get "it", I am almost one of those folks, and the value here far outwieghs the satisfaction of completely speaking your mind

Ironwood

[chevytaHOE5674]

True-true-true;  "So no formal education in environmental related fields, that is what I gathered from reading."  I just have former education in previous enviromental damage caused by harvesting logs in wetlands. Therefore, I think I'm more qualified than you are in responding to this new wetland logging regulation which I'm a current "out of state" land owner in NH. 

Trust me I've seen plenty of damage from logging, I am in the woods 5-6 days a week you know; as this is what I do for a living. 

Story: A local mill had a contractor logging a tract, the logger was cutting trees off the banks of a creek and rutting it up. Mill shut them down and kicked them off, then tried to go after their company for some reparations. Guess what, the "fly by nighter" company didn't have a dime to his name (well other than a 1985 ford pickup worth about 100 bucks). The expensive machinery was all owned by his brothers and uncles etc. So the logger closed down his "business" and the mill never got a dime out of them. A week later the logger was back to work under a different name using the same "borrowed" equipment. This is how "fly by nighters work" so your 5k permit will do nothing to stop or regulate them.

[bull]

Sounds like someone needs to join a forestry association, Like the Society for the Preservation of NewHampire Forests. The have literature and videos out that show GFP's etc..... They also have a listing of all current and past forestry laws etc........ Start Googling !!!
They promote good forestry pratices and managment of forests and woodlots.... Might be a good place to start !!!!

Step back from the attack, stop, look,and listen this may allow you to keep your head !!!

[Gary_C]

Yep, It went right over your head. 

Some people are "hard of hearing." You must be "hard of reading," but I'm not. I don't need to see everything twice. If you say things right, it's usually not necessary to repeat every post that you are trying to deny being right. And there are just so many. 

[Ironwood]

Here is a good and lively discussion of folks from the "field" and a younger folk trying to learn some stuff, and share some info.


          http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,40208.0/topicseen.html

          Ironwood

[mrnero]

True-true-true;  "So no formal education in environmental related fields, that is what I gathered from reading."  I just have former education in previous enviromental damage caused by harvesting logs in wetlands. Therefore, I think I'm more qualified than you are in responding to this new wetland logging regulation which I'm a current "out of state" land owner in NH. 

Trust me I've seen plenty of damage from logging, I am in the woods 5-6 days a week you know; as this is what I do for a living. 

Story: A local mill had a contractor logging a tract, the logger was cutting trees off the banks of a creek and rutting it up. Mill shut them down and kicked them off, then tried to go after their company for some reparations. Guess what, the "fly by nighter" company didn't have a dime to his name (well other than a 1985 ford pickup worth about 100 bucks). The expensive machinery was all owned by his brothers and uncles etc. So the logger closed down his "business" and the mill never got a dime out of them. A week later the logger was back to work under a different name using the same "borrowed" equipment. This is how "fly by nighters work" so your 5k permit will do nothing to stop or regulate them.

.......work" so your 5k permit will do nothing to stop or regulate them."  If this new wetland regulation was active during the time of your story, It would seem that the so called fly by nighter would be in violation of failing to apply for a permit and illegally logging in a wetland area without a permit which is subject to heavy fines to the logger. What do you mean that this wetland permit (5K) will do nothing to stop or regulate them ?? Please explain.
 
 

[Tom]

I really think it is a good idea.  As a matter of fact, I still think that $100,000 would make a better permit.  We have a lot of pine in the southeast that could fill New Hampshires market in a hearbeat.  Probably Massachestts as well.  So if they kill their logging industry, it will just mean more for us.   Just don't bring your skidders down here or we might Green card you.  No telling what that permit would cost.

[mrnero]

Mrnero,

 Dude, just take it easy. 'round these parts you need to have a certain demenor (read constructive, cordial). That is how this place works. There is a TON of great stuff you can learn here (and things people can teach us, I have learned sooo much and continue to). I know your bitter and angry about your place, we get that. But none of here are connected to that. We ARE people trying to make a living, run businesses, feed our families. The point of much of this is, the "math" wont work for small land owners, and hence it is a law that will limit peoples ability to excercise there private property rights. I know you think many in the logging community are "the bad guys", I get that, as stated before, I am mostly an enviromental type, I have served on a Board of a Non-profit for ten years that promotes reuse of used building materials. I am VERY dedicated to enviro causes. I sometimes cringe at the stuff I see in the woods (sometimes even the cutting of a nice large stand of older growth, just saw that in Sept ). But this is what these folks do, this is their livelihood. I dont log, I build and design "creative reuse furniture", check out my gallery. Point is, just keep at a dull roar, you'll learn alot around here, it is a good place. If you don't, the reality is, your get tossed w/ the other folks who didn't get "it", I am almost one of those folks, and the value here far outwieghs the satisfaction of completely speaking your mind

Ironwood

Hey "dude", are you talking to me ??
"The point of much of this is, the "math" wont work for ..........." I agree with you on the math issue, but this is only part of what the wetland crossing is about. Furthermore, I don't own a sawmill nor do I log either.

[mrnero]

I really think it is a good idea.  As a matter of fact, I still think that $100,000 would make a better permit.  We have a lot of pine in the southeast that could fill New Hampshires market in a hearbeat.  Probably Massachestts as well.  So if they kill their logging industry, it will just mean more for us.   Just don't bring your skidders down here or we might Green card you.  No telling what that permit would cost.

"....., it will just mean more for us." then you should be thankful if this regulation passes in NH

[Tom]

Maybe $150,00 would be better. Not that I would be thankful, just would be happy to take y'alls money if your too stupid to allow business in your state.   I know, you aren't in that state, so it won't bother you, but you're close enough that maybe your State will think it's a good idea too.  Maybe $200,000. I like that better. 

[mrnero]

I started out as an engineer but it wasnt a good fit and after many other jobs both white and blue collared I ended up teaching high school math and science for 26 years.  I started selling firewood part time in 86 and bought a woodmizer in 95.

If the statment seems out of line it was not intended to be, I was looking for information as to whether or not you were in some wood or logging related field in order to put some perspective on your responses.  In my personal experience absentee land holders have not been good for my part of NH, hence the first part of my response,  in all instances where I have interacted with absentee owners their actions caused a problem for local owners.

If you read my early posts you will see that I believe there are both good and bad in any business or operation and that more agressive laws do not necessarily deter the bad from their kind of conduct, they may get in trouble after the fact but the damage may already be done.  Over-aggressive laws can drive some good operators out of the bidding.  I get many jobs after the homeowner hired a lowball bid that either didn't finish, taking only the marketable sticks or left such a mess that the yard looks like a war zone.

" .....left such a mess that the yard looks like a war zone." I dont see a problem with a war zone look on other peoples property, providing a warzone look don't happen on wetland property

[Tom]

$225,000 would do a better job.  Maybe the Abutting States could run some permits up too.  They could stop logging in the entire N. East.  Transportation would pretty much deadended so the producing states wouldn't have to bother with the competition.  Michigan might could pull the fat out of the fire on this deal.

[mrnero]

Maybe $150,00 would be better. Not that I would be thankful, just would be happy to take y'alls money if your too stupid to allow business in your state.   I know, you aren't in that state, so it won't bother you, but you're close enough that maybe your State will think it's a good idea too.  Maybe $200,000. I like that better. 

"..........Maybe $150,00 .............Maybe $200,000" Thanks for your support.

[Tom]

You're very welcome little fella.  This looks like it's going to be a win/win.  I just wonder how much we could get this run up without killing the whole state's industry.  There's trucking too.  We haven't even begun to think of that, and the mills and .. did you used to make paper up there?  I wonder how many States we could take out of the competition.  Yeah, this could be good.

[mrnero]

$225,000 would do a better job.  Maybe the Abutting States could run some permits up too.  They could stop logging in the entire N. East.  Transportation would pretty much deadended so the producing states wouldn't have to bother with the competition.  Michigan might could pull the fat out of the fire on this deal.

Uncle Tom,  "Our group of people" thank you for your support.  

[Tom]

Your certainly welcome.  I'm not finished.  I got a lot of ideas.  Massachusetts used to grow trees, didn't they?

[mrnero]

You're very welcome little fella.  This looks like it's going to be a win/win.  I just wonder how much we could get this run up without killing the whole state's industry.  There's trucking too.  We haven't even begun to think of that, and the mills and .. did you used to make paper up there?  I wonder how many States we could take out of the competition.  Yeah, this could be good.

True, maybe some one will start a new topic on trucking logs to the north east or making TP paper from out of state logs and Etc. wait and see.

[Tom]

No, I think the 'making paper out of State logs is out of the question."  you won't have any logging there. We'll get that stopped.  The paper will get made where the trees are grown.

But Trucking might be another story all together.  The cost of transportation into the N.E. could really get to be a lucrative business until the permits for importation got to be to expensive. We might be talking black market here.   What's a roll of toilet paper worth to you?   We gotta be thinking of these things.  There's money to be made, you know.

[mrnero]

Your certainly welcome.  I'm not finished.  I got a lot of ideas.  Massachusetts used to grow trees, didn't they?

I heard there is big logging in the central parts of MA. But here on the east side is practically none. Mostly just tree removal service. I'm sure you have lot of ideas and I think it will be interesting to hear. Take care