My 660 died - has anyone rebuilt one of these? dealer wants $500 to fix

[Dalden]

The saw was running fine right up until the end.  Got a little low on gas (yes it was mixed and at 40/1) saw died.  Filled 'er up then pulled twice -on the next pull it would not pull anymore.  Trip to the dealer confirmed piston scored - saw is siezed.  They want $500 to fix - ? I bought it used for only $150 more then that.

I found a piston and cylinder kit on evilbay for $97  is this a fairly easy fix?

  Has anyone else run into this -is this an easy saw to over-rev - I'm milling ash/oak etc. but this log was only around 20" and I was on the first slab -so maybe 8" of chain in use on a 36"  alaskan?  I have never burned up a saw before and certainly this was the last one I though I would kill?

[Dalden]

OK, one more question - does $500 seem resonable for the piston and cylinder re-do?

[DGK]

I just changed out the piston on one of my 660's. An easy repair to do. The troubleshooting as to why mine went lean is still a work in progress. I got my replacement piston from Baileys (Italian made). The cylinder was still OK for just a honing by the local machine shop. Good luck.

[SwampDonkey]

Would a dirty fuel filter cause it? On my brush saw I changed out my fuel filter and air filter and runs like a new saw. Someone told me they blew a saw like mine with a dirty fuel filter. I don't know if it's true, I'm no expert. Brush saws are used at higher RPM than chainsaws.

[islandlogger]

How much milling have you done with the saw? That kind of cutting is awfully hard on the unit no matter what (learned after many a year with Alaskan Mills!) and so it may just be normal wear for that application. If you havn't done alot of milling with it and as you say you bought it used it may be any number of things. Regardless, $500 is cheaper then a new saw BUT is still alot of Green, I would go along with the above mentioned and get the parts from Baileys and fix her up your self, it's cheaper and good for your own experience. If you do alot of Alaskan Milling I would suggest upgrading to a bigger saw, I use a Stihl 0-84 now for the few times I do it anymore, more bang for your buck and the saw generally has enough extra power to not get over worked.....

                          Best of luck!!

[Flatheadyoungin]

"well, fella, it'll cost ya about $500 to fix that one........but see that shiny new one over there on the shelf, i can put you in it real right........"

do you wanna sell your 660?

joking aside, i have been wanting one, and like a dummy, i like projects....

[joe_indi]

Other than a blocked pickup body or carb strainer, there are several other possible causes, for example the saw, its a MS660 right?
MS 660 and the 066 have more differences and they are not in the numbers of the models.
The MS660 runs a bit leaner than the 066 because it has a 0.64 fixed jet compared to the more 'lavish' 0.66 jet on the older 066.
Ignition timing is another. Port timing still another.
You could change the jet to a 0.66 or even a 0.68 from an old MS460 carb.Jets are available as spares.
The ignition and port timing? not much you could do as a simple job.
But, you could compensate in another way.
Check the cylinder gasket.
If it is a black metal one, it is a high compression gasket.Use two to lower the compression a wee bit.
Doing all this will prevent the saw from overheating from 'under load' the next time.

Regarding your seized piston, scouring on the cylinder can be removed with a bit of muratic acid  treatment an a final polishing rub with emery.
Dip the cylinder in a solution of washing soda or even baking soda with water.
This will neutralize any acid in the cylinder, dry out  before installing it.
Dont worry if there are any scratch marks on the cylinder surface.It takes a lot of effort to kill a 066/660 cylinder.
The piston  should be usable once a criss cross polishing is done.Flip the rings (top to bottom groove and vice versa).
Apply a light coating of grease to the surface of the piston and cylinder.
This will see the saw through the first few seconds of running at adequate compression before the metal surfaces seat.
Open the L screw half way from the stop. H screw should be full out from its stop.
After the saw has been put together again,with the spark plug removed and switch Off,  'gargle' out the insides with some fuel.
Pour some fuel through the carb intake with the throttle fully pressed, an ounce should do.
With the throttle stilled pressed, pull on the starter a couple of times.
Then turn the saw upside down and repeat the starter pulling (with throttle pressed) a couple of times.
Screw in the spark plug, move the switch to 'fast  idle' (Start) and one pull on the starter should have that saw going again.

Spend that $500 on the wife and kids for Christmas.


Joe

[Dalden]

 ;DOK folks,  First thanks for all the info. 

I think I will buy the parts -  and see if Bailey's has the larger port.  This is an MS 660 not an 066 and as Joe pointed out so maybe the jet did let it go lean.  If I'm changing the cylinder and piston I can look at the gasket and follow your other suggestion.
The dealer suspected an air leak or previous damage from it's first owner.  Though I feel that the saw was "hotter" then normal when I was milling.  This was actually the first cut I made using the alaskan rig.  I am looking to do custom beam or half-log mantles and make other stuff to sell from some of the ash around here (livingston county, mi)
Is there a way to limit the top end rev? 

[John Mc]

You mentioned that the saw got a little low on gas and died. Did it run out of gas under load or at high RPMs? In those last few seconds before it dies totally, as saw will run very lean before running out of gas. Might not be a big deal if you are at idle, but might damage the cylinder if it's rev'd up?

John Mc

[Dalden]

Thanks John,

I had just let it come down to idle when it stopped running, I was checking to be sure I would clear the slab rail mount.  Saw cut out at idle.  Filled it back up and got two pulls trying to restart -third pull the saw siezed.  It's is really scored on the exhast side -so I'm thinking it was lean -don't know about the rest yet.

[Al_Smith]

Everybody has well intended ideas on this type of situation .

You know on an occasion of a lean type of seizure condition such as this just cleaning up the piston and jug will add hours to the usefull life of the saw engine  .

Some folks think it has to be perfect but I can show you the fastest hot saws in the US of A that are less than that . Clean it up if possible .If it does  clean out it likely won't run for the next 30 years but it might make ten . Oil in the mix gents .

[Dalden]

Everybody has well intended ideas on this type of situation .

You know on an occasion of a lean type of seizure condition such as this just cleaning up the piston and jug will add hours to the usefull life of the saw engine  .

Some folks think it has to be perfect but I can show you the fastest hot saws in the US of A that are less than that . Clean it up if possible .If it does  clean out it likely won't run for the next 30 years but it might make ten . Oil in the mix gents .

Speaking of OIL in the mix -  is 40/1 OK for milling with a 660? (don't wanna start a war here)  Or should I have thinkened it up a bit.  I know I will fix the saw (sorry - flatheadyoungin) I found parts for $97 and the dealer in question wanted 160 for the labor - I'll pay that if he will use my parts or follow the most common respose around here and fix it myself.  I figure the dealer may be able to provide the actual reason for the problem so I can avoid it  - 

I just ordered the EFCO MT8200 as a back-up and to find out just how long I can make a new saw last.  My old homelite is still running  -

[Al_Smith]

 Well first of all milling is about the toughest thing you can subject a saw to .As such it would be a good idea to make sure the carb is set just a tad bit on the rich side .

The 40 to one should be just fine but if it were running a tad lean it could cause problems .

Another thing ,if that 066 is running a stock muffler and running lean the heat has to go some place if not out the exhaust so it cooks the piston . Lean fuel mixtures burn faster than richer fuel mixtures and as such produce more heat . A restricted exhaust path just amplifies the problem .

Now I'm not saying to fatten up the carb until it blows black smoke ,just enough so it is "4 cycling " unless it's really under a heavy load .

I imagine that saw had been burning the piston for some time,you just didn't know it .Chances are it was just coincidental that it took a notion to take a fit on you after it hiccupped running out of fuel .

[ladylake]

 

 You need to pull the limiter caps and adjust richer on your new Efco, most saws nowdays come set on the lean edge thanks to the EPA and for milling they should be set a little rich.  Putting a new P@C on takes somewhere around 2 hours, I'd do it myself for $160, if you've never done it , it's not that hard or find a friend that could help.   Steve

[joe_indi]

I just ordered the EFCO MT8200 as a back-up and to find out just how long I can make a new saw last.  My old homelite is still running  -

 You need to pull the limiter caps and adjust richer on your new Efco, most saws nowdays come set on the lean edge thanks to the EPA and for milling they should be set a little rich.  Putting a new P@C on takes somewhere around 2 hours, I'd do it myself for $160, if you've never done it , it's not that hard or find a friend that could help.   Steve

This is the same saw that I field tested nearly a year ago.
It was as the Oleomac GS820.
It is a very sturdy saw.Plenty of low end torque.
I think the limiter caps are best left undisturbed because the digital coil ensures that the rpm does not climb too high.This leaves the engine running a bit rich at high speeds, if the load is too low.
Don't be misled by the four stroking at full throttle, its the digital coil cutting off the spark for alternate strokes of the piston.The digital coil also adjusts the ignition timing in relation to the rpm.
Only check if the coil is the original version or the modified one.The modified one is better.

Joe

[ladylake]

 Joe.. It's not the RPM that caused the meltdown it was from being lean what ever the reason, set that way, air leak, fuel lines, clogged vent or filter to mention a few.  A lot of saws come set to lean. I won't run a new saw until I'm sure it rich enough by pulling the caps and making sure. I bought a new Echo CS370 that sounded rich due to the coil limiter, but was way lean, about 1/2 turn on the high adjuster. Cut times side by side went from 15 seconds to 9 seconds after adjusting. It ran with the factory setting but surely would have burnt up in the 1st long hard cut, if just used for limbing it might have lasted but would be gutless. These guys running saws on mills need to have their saws a little richer than normal.  Steve

[Dalden]

Thanks for all the help guys-

This time last year I was fixing around 1000 laptops and desktop computers per year.  The company closed up the repair shop and outsourced the work this June. Been laid-off since - I don't want to have my future in the hands of CEO types anymore so were going to try to make a go of cutting and selling finished mantels/shelves/turnings etc.  We can get all the wood I can cut around here for next to nothing.  I don't have a whole lot of experiance with any of this -but I can learn on the go.  This forum sure helps shorten the learning curve.
I'm sure I can fix the 660 myself - however I'm hoping the dealer will give me an idea of what happened (air leak - whatever) I think the saw was more used up then the seller wanted to admit so -***
Don't wanna tear up the new EFCO so I will likely run 35/1 gas and adjust the high end a little rich.  Which way does the screw turn to go about 1/4 turn rich?  I bet the manufacturer does not give that info in the manual?

[Flatheadyoungin]

Well, dang! 

yeah, fix that saw yourself......save the $$, take pics and let people on here tell you what to do....they'd love it....

feed a man once, teach him to fish and feed him for life.....well, something like that!

I know I will fix the saw (sorry - flatheadyoungin)

[Cut4fun]

Well, dang!   

Southern Ohio.   I would guess West Portsmouth.

So have to heard of Muletown  about 15 north

[ladylake]

 You need to turn the high counterclockwise to get it richer, most time you need to pull the limiter caps to do this, You want to set it so it blubbers when held wide open out of the wood and soon as you start cutting it sound goods again, These rev limiting coils can fool you into thinking it rich when it not so open the high until you know its slowing the saw down then back in gradually until it cuts the fastest, if you get to lean it will rev high but bog easy.   Steve

[Flatheadyoungin]

No, Rosemount but we have bare land out on 140.......

The big town of Muletown.......

Well, dang!   

Southern Ohio.   I would guess West Portsmouth.

So have to heard of Muletown  about 15 north

[Dalden]

First - Thanks for all the help

An update: 

Got the new EFCO and have some comments for anyone considering a MT8200
    1. Starts really easy for a mid-large saw
    2. Runs strong - It will mill, though I won't use it for that for long mainly because I think it would be a bit undersized and the location of the chain adjustment screw ends up behind the mill components when it's mounted on the granberg mill.  I did use it to finish the mantel I was milling.  Also -I'll have the Stihl repaired myself (thanks to all the forum responses) this week.
    3. It's quieter then I thought it would be - my bro.-in-law on the helper handle noticed that too
    4. The way it is put together I doubt I will need the warrantee.
    5. It is a bit heavy - smaller cc's then the stihl but it feels heavier
    6. Cuts like crazy
I like it -

[Log Hogger]

My dad burned up the p/c in his 066 on a Logosol.  I like to work on small engines but I have no experience with chainsaws, but IIRC it took me less than hour to swap out the burned up p/c for a new assembly; it's a very easy repair on this saw.  He doesn't use it anymore but I've made some changes to ensure it doesn't burn up another p/c:

1.  Only use 93 octane, non-ethanol fuel with synthetic oil mix, no older than 1 month.

2.  Port the muffler.  This adds a bit of power and lowers the operating temperature.  Stihl sells a dual-port muffler for the 066 if you don't want to deal with porting the stock muffler. 

3.  Tune the saw for milling.  First I tune the 066 with the standard two-cycle tuning procedure.  Then I begin a milling cut, just cut enough to bring up the temperature, on the hardwoods I'm milling 12 inches is good.  Next I back out the H jet 1/16th of a turn, and cut another 12 inches.  Repeat until there's a drop in power, then return the H jet to the previous setting.  This method ensures as rich a mixture as possible while still maintaining sufficient milling power.

4.  Basic maintenance tasks like cleaning the air filter, replacing the fuel filter on a regular basis, running only razor sharp chain with sufficient oil.  This is probably obvious to most people but my dad only cleaned the air filter once per week when he felt like it, forget about the fuel filter. 

Following these practices has kept the 066 in excellent condition so far. 

[Ax- man]

Log Hogger, this is probaly the best post I have seen in print on how to go about a no nonsense practical approach to tuning a saw for milling. The 66's wouldn't be my first choice for such demanding  work as milling, they are high rpm saws and the torque needed to do milling lacks compared to the older Sthils like the 76's.

I know of a few guys that have done the same thing trying to mill logs. Five hundred bucks is not out of line for a dealer to rebuild a saw like that, Sthil parts are outrageous. Gotta pay for that trademark somehow.

If this happened to me and all I had was a 66, I would be checking that bottom end out to make sure the bearings and seals were in good to excellent shape. Putting a new top-end into a saw doesn't mean the same thing won't happen again. You can get by with so,so bearings and small airleaks in the seals if your just cutting wood. Milling is  hard on the bottom end of a saw because of the torque needed to keep the saw moving forward due to the chain dulling down  and constantly running it on it's side.

[zopi]

yeah..roasted my 660..gotta get the gaskets for it..I was cutting hard in a big oak..I'd imagine It was a bit too lean from the factory...I was really working it in the log and with a 20" bar..

One thing you can do to keep it a tad cooler is pull the spark screen out of the muffler...unless you use the saw in dry woods that is..you still have to tune a bit for the added flow, but what else is new..definetly want to run a bit on the rich side for milling, especially if you are pulling a long chain..

[Al_Smith]

With a 20" an 066/660 should be able to cut if the chain was on backwards .

IMO this is the smallest saw I would even consider to mill with .Since they came out with the "Alaska" type milling guides  there has been unnumerable saws cooked from running them .A majority of those saw were in fact 066's .

Milling is tough on the saws .Milling is an option to salvage wood and some enjoy it .

If it were I ,which it's not I'd find a big old reed valve Mac ,Homelite ,Pioneer ,076 Sthl or something that has some grunt . At least 100 cc's .These things can take much more abuse than an 066 . I see no sense in burning up an 1100 dollar saw when a cheaper option could be used .Save the 66 for what it was built for, a darned good faller /bucker .

[Tom]

Y'all  'scuse me, but I almost get a heart attack every time I read the title of this thread on the Forum.  To prolong my worthy life, I'm going to stick a "My" on the front of the thread to keep my heart out of my throat.  ......carry on. 

[Dalden]

Thanks for adding the "my" - I am advised by counsel that my liabilty insurance does not cover inducing corinary problems in others, though the dealer did not seem to mind nearly giving me one.

MY  -   EFCO still running fine even though I milled a bit more with it - Stihl in bits and pieces - but I'll get 'em all put back. I got a service manual from EBAY. 

I wonder - TOM ??  Does the forum have a place where really techy folks could place scanned versions of manuals like that in PDF form for forumites to use?  Idea ?  maybe forum donation to see into that file archive type thing

soory thinking outloud.

My kid just bought a Poulan Pro 54cc to buck my scrap into firewood, now that he has saw dust on him I'll never get him outta here.  Bet he ends up making more $$ then me.  Thanks to the forum advice I'll get him to set his a little rich too!  (the box made a special note that the saw was EPA approved)

[SwampDonkey]

Might be copyright issues.

[Al_Smith]

I wonder - TOM ??  Does the forum have a place where really techy folks could place scanned versions of manuals like that in PDF form for forumites to use?  Idea ?  maybe forum donation to see into that file archive type thing

soory thinking outloud.

 

If you do a Google often times you can find the IPL on commercial sites such as parts tree . Others may be contained on certain other web forums but because some sites get a tad fussy about it I won't provide a link .

A few years ago  myself ,Mike Acres ,Lewis Brander ,Magnus ,MacBob and others spent months and months scanning and posting .


With Stihl you can get the operaters manuals on line but for reasons unknown they get a tad cranky about giving out the IPL's or actual tech manuals like it's top secret or something . Typical Stihl .

 You might get somebody to scan and send them via regular E-mail but it takes about 6 e-mails to do that because of the size files .

[SwampDonkey]

With Stihl you can get the operaters manuals on line but for reasons unknown they get a tad cranky about giving out the IPL's or actual tech manuals like it's top secret or something . Typical Stihl .

I bet you could find it in German.

[Tom]

Copyright is always a question that must be considered.  You, and the forum, could get tied up in long, expensive court battles if Copyrights are abused.

There are places on the forum where stuff, relative to maintenance, could be kept.  One is the forum itself.  You just have to title the thread specifically for that item so that it could be found in search.

If there were no room in the post, then "additional Options", below the Photo Upload statement, will allow certain sizes of documents, like PDF's.  That is what it is for.

You could also provide the information, by either copying a post, or typing your own, and putting it on the "Knowledge Base".  You get to it through Forum Extras at the top of the page., in the banner.

If you use the knowledge base, it's best for the info, or a note saying it is in the knowledge base, to also be in a post so that a search will find it.

Never take copyright lightly.  It is serious law.

[Jeff]

I doubt if manuals have copyright notices in them but I could be wrong.  Al, have you ever noticed one in any of the manuals you scanned?

[SwampDonkey]

Depends on the manual. A user's manual probably not, but a service/repair manual I wouldn't be surprised. My friend's father was a traveling salesman with service manuals and they were not cheap to buy, so I assume someone has copyrights on some at least. And because a manual can be found on Google, doesn't mean it's not copyright. They are treading some thin waters. There has been much discussion over scanning and providing documents online. Google has been kind of sneaking bye, by just displaying parts. Some documents state that copying even parts of them is forbidden without permission. My brother purchased a PDF version of an Elan snow sled repair manual, and they won't touch it at Staples. Staples offers a printing service for files and they won't print it. In Adobe Reader it says it's a "Secured" document. Allows printing, but not content copying or assembling for publication.  He has no printer of his own, so he comes and prints a page or two at my place.

[Al_Smith]

Actually I never scanned a manual only the IPL's .The only manuals I have and those being tech manuals are Stihl and McCulloch and those are on microfiche and I have no way to copy them as such .
The Homelite stuff is all contained in a large book which covers all models but keep in mind they are all old as the hills .


I wouldn't put at risk some web forum though by posting the IPL for that matter .However as I see it those IPLs are my property because I paid for them ,dearly I might add .If I as a private person want to loan them to someone for no profit what harm is that ?

Now I could see the almighty Stihl making a big fuss if I sold them .The operators manuals I suppose are nice but all things considered really a saw is a saw they all work the same .Nice perhaps to have but not a "must have" but opinions on that may vary as they should .


As I typed this I took a peek at my Stihl IPL's which are in a big dealers book about 6 inches thick .I don't see any place is says one thing about copyright unless it's in German .Fact is the one and only manual I have for Stihl,042/048 doesn't say anything either .

[joe_indi]

This is a part from the introduction of the MS660 workshop manual.
I think the bit I have highlighted could be taken to mean that passing on technical info is not smiled upon by Stihl