Should I buy a mill?

[jmaine]

Hi guys, I’ve got some questions about buying a sawmill and in looking through some of the posts, it seems like there are lot of guys here with sawing expertise.   

I do some timberframing  as a hobby. I’ve built a shed and a barn and would like to move on to a house with a connecting barn.  I’m in the initial stages of planning the house/barn and trying to get some estimates of what it would cost.

I bought rough sawn Hemlock for my shed and barn and kept pretty careful track of what everything cost. So,  I think I have  a good feel for what I’ll need for lumber for my next project.  I could easily see spending $40k for the lumber I need, a lot of money no doubt.  I do have about 12 acres of land, most of it is wooded with a fair amount of Hemlock, White Pine and some oak (I would need oak for the braces).   The biggest trees might be 24”-26” in diameter, there seem to be  a lot in the 18”-20” range though. 

I’m toying with the idea of buying a woodmizer LT-15 and milling my own lumber.  I will have a tractor to move the logs around.  I don’t have any experience with sawmills. I’m actually trying to find someone in the area with one so I can pick their brain, perhaps volunteer my labor and help them do some sawing just so I can get some experience.     I have a few questions on buying a sawmill:

(1) What sort of resale value do they have? If I spend $8k on a saw mill and use it sparingly for a few years and take good care of it, what could I expect to get for a price should I decide to sell it after I’m done?

(2) How accurate are they in milling timbers?  I use what’s called square rule joinery, so the timbers don’t have to be precise over the entire length of the beam, but I wouldn’t want to have ½ inch difference from one end of the timber to the other. 

(3) Is the preferred method of sawing to cut the trees in the winter and mill them green, is that correct?

(4) What’s the smallest log that you can mill and get usable lumber?  For example, is it worthwhile to mill logs that are 8-10” in diameter?  Is it more trouble that it’s worth?

I think maybe my first step is to take an inventory of exactly what I have for usable trees on my lot. Measure tree diameters, species of tree, number of each species, height, estimate of bf, etc.

Any advice? 

Thanks

Joe

[Engineer]

First question is:  You have to ASK if you should buy a mill?  The answer is yes, without a doubt.  It's what mill you get that is important.  There are so many choices out there that making a decision could be difficult.

To answer your questions:  Resale of an 8-10 year old mill in good shape could be from 60-75% of the cost of a new one, depending on options you get at the time of purchase.  Buying a very recent but gently used mill is even a better deal, if you can dig up the cash to buy it from a private party.

I used square rule for my house, and some of the timbers were out by as much as 1/4".  A new, well-maintained mill with a sharp blade and consistent feed rate (specifically a Woodmizer, since that's what I have experience with, and also the Logosol chainsaw mills) can cut a slice off a log the thickness of a dime, consistently.  You should be able to get timbers that are square and dimensionally accurate to under 1/8" tolerance.  It all depends on how well your mill is adjusted, how sharp your blades are, how consistent your sawing is, and how carefully you set your cutting pattern up.

For timber framing, it is preferred to work with green timbers.  My planning wasn't so good, so I have some stain and mold discoloration in my house timbers, but I would try hard to cut in winter and get the timbers inside under cover.  I would have built a garage or barn first, and then constructed the frame components indoors.  Hemlock and oak will be less affected by weather than pine.

I have milled a bunch of 10" diameter stuff.  Especially with my mill, where I can't get much closer than 2-1/2" to the bed with the blade, it's a colossal pain.  But, you can get a 6x6 out of a 10" log (usually) and a 4x4 out of an 8" log.  Most of my braces were cut from 10-12" diameter cherry and black birch logs.

Ever hear the phrase, "Hindsight is 20/20"?  Well, it's sure clear for me.  I bought a used mill and it's been sometimes difficult to get the mill running, cutting smoothly or it's just too much effort.  I should have started off with a brand-new Woodmizer LT40 hydraulic mill, paid or financed the $25,000 up front, and by now I'd have a seven-year-old mill, still current in function, with about 1000 hours on it and worth close to $16-18k.  Plus it's be paid for either way.

[nas]

Hi Joe

I will try to answer your questions, and I'm sure the smarter guys on the forum will set me straight if I am wrong.
1. The mills have a very good resale.  They will lose a little if you buy new, but if you get a good used mill, you can probably sell it in a couple of years for very close to what you paid for it.
2.  The are as accurate as you are.  If you set the mill up right, and use sharp blades, and don't push too hard, they are very accurate.
3.  yes, but you can cut in the summer too but I would mill the logs right away too avoid staining.
4.  Wood from smaller logs can be a little more lively, but it is usually fine.  8-10" logs are great for making studs and bracing.  I think they are worth sawing.

Let us know where you are.  I'm sure there is a member near you who would love to have their brain picked over lunch(your treat of course )

Nick

[solidwoods]

Doesn't sound like you will be using the mill for money after you cut your own timber/lumber so also crunch the number for having a miller come out and mill the logs.
Then you don't have to put up allot of $ on hold, figure out how to mill,  then try to find a buyer.
You will have your hands full just logging and building.
Speaking of logging- if you use a tractor be sure to study the doe's and don'ts of skidding with a tractor, it can be dangerous if done wrong.  A log arch would be a very good investment (it could be worth your life).
jim

[Don K]

Joe,

I have a LT15 and it is a very accurate, given that the blades are sharp and in set and the mill is in alignment. I've had it almost 5 yrs and it cuts as accurately as the day I got it.There are other good brand mills out there too. In my opinion the 15 would shine for cutting TF material as the setworks wheel is very consistent.

8-10 " logs have value especially cutting timbers. If you are trying to squeeze out every board possible, 4 cuts and you have a timber. To build your own house and barn, I think you would be money ahead to get your own mill especially in the price range of the 15. I don't think you would want to part with it when your through because by then you will have more projects. Of course getting some one to mill for you is a option too.

Don

[MotorSeven]

Engineer, I just saw the quote at the bottom of you post.....x-cellent!

Joe, yes as stated an LT15 is a great mill for what you want. Keep in mind that for TF you will be wanting some longer beams....16-20+ feet? Don't forget to add the price on extensions, $600 per 6.8 '. Or build them yourself like i did.
I had a hard time finding a "deal" on an LT15....ended up paying $4,500, but it was like new condition. WM has some good deals right now as they are trying to stay competitive in this economy.
I am building my house out of Eastern red cedar. I can get a 6" square house log out of a 10"(small end) tree.

RD

[davemartin88]

I sold a 4 year old LT15 this spring for just under $5000 (I upgraded to a hydraulic, more portable mill), it did have one bed extension. When the mill is aligned correctly (which is easy to do and doesn't change much), 1/8" tolerance is plenty doable. I milled a lot of smaller logs, a bit of work but a lot easy to move around as well, especially if you are looking for timbers- doesn't take very many cuts. Milling when the log is green is the best approach, not sure about the summer or winter. I cut mostly oak and most of it was for trees that had to come down for some reason or were starting to die- I just cut them right after they were taken down regardless of the time of year.

Since you have a tractor, that will make the log movement much easier so the LT15 may be just the ticket! If you tell us where you are, maybe someone will volunteer to show you their set up.

[jmaine]

Hi guys, thanks for all the advice.  I'm in Southern Maine, I'd love to find someone in that does some sawing and get their advice.   

I did consider hiring someone to do the sawing for me, but I think I'd like to give it a shot myself.  I also don't know if hiring someone would work out. I don't plan to cut everything at once, maybe do a little here and there.  I would guess that it would get expensive if a sawyer had to come back several times?  Is there some sort of initial set up fee that I would have to pay each time?

Joe

[Don K]

Depends, each sawyer has their own fees for different services.

Don

[bandmiller2]

Joe,an LT15 would be a good mill for your plans ,easy to buy or make extensions for however long you want to mill.It would pay for itself building your house and you would still have the mill when your done.Plan your material handling to reduce lifting and strain on your back.Frank C.

[Dave Shepard]

I agree, the LT-15 will do the job. You don't need to put out 10,000 feet a day, you need to cut an accurate timber. I run three LT-40s, from a manual up to a Super with the 51 HP CAT. They all will cut very accurate timbers, both in squareness, and consistency. I have supplied two frames for TF workshops, with another going out next week. I have gotten a lot of compliments on the quality the mills puts out.

[shinnlinger]

Hi,

I am doing essentially what you want to do.  I was going to re-use a timberframe on my property, but the more I looked at it, the sillier that seemed, then there was a massive windstorm and it knocked some beauty's  over on my neighbors place, and then a great deal popped up on a Turner and I cut myself a new frame.  I will offer this to your plans.

#1  Even with a tractor, milling with a manual mill is HARD work.  You should know that up front.  The reason I got such a good buy on my mill was that the 60 year old owner didn't realize that up front.  The first 2 weeks I had it I had the same thoughts that I had made a mistake.  Stick with it though, and read the tips on this site, and you can make it manageable.

#2  What is your patience level?  It takes a while to collect the lumber ( significant safety risks at that) and mill your cutlist.  The spring and summer I was doing that, my wife was telling me to sell the stupid mill, as I wasn't getting anything done.  She went away labor day weekend and I brought a crane in and raised my frame and that helped, but it was an issue.

#3  I had thoughts of selling my mill when I was done, but projects and trees keep popping up and since I can EASILY say the mill is paid for now, I still have it.  Was milling just yesterday as a matter of fact.  My point is, you probably won't want to sell it when you are done, if anything you will want to upgrade.

#4  Woodmizer makes a good mill, but so do several other manufacturers.  If it were me, I would search craigslist and the for sale section here and looked at used machines.  Ask questions about specific makes and models if you have doubt's, but I wouldn't limit myself to orange even if you prefer the new market.

I will confirm you can cut extremely accurate if you pay attention to junk on the track and square up your mill.  As to time to cut, I milled my timbers in the spring /summer.  Ideal?  maybe not, but it is what the windstorm gave me and it worked out fine.  You have to do what you have to do. 

With my manual, I have found 12-22" logs are my sweet spot.  Big enough to give me some lumber and be worth fussing with, but not so big I can't work it with a peavy.  That said I have gone 6 inches in either direction and been pleased with the result.  I suppose I should point out the obvious, the lumber you get is the direct product of the quality of the trees you start with.  You describe some good trees, but crooked, knotty trees don't yield much quality lumber.

Good luck!!!

[John S]

Joe,
Where are you located?  I have a 2008 LT-15 (20 hours) that I may be selling or trading in.  It has 3 bed sections and I added an hour meter.  The mill is fine but I thought it would be easier to transport.  I work by myself (I'm 63) and have difficulty loading the mill on to my landscape trailer.  I do not have a supply of trees so milling here has not been an option.  I am considering an LT-28.
The mill cuts great, especially if you plan to leave it stationary.
John

[jmaine]

Hi John, I'm in Southern Maine (Buxton).  About 15 miles west of Portland. 

Joe

[Engineer]

I'm in Southern Maine (Buxton).  

Is there a big field, with a giant oak tree, and a stone wall, with a rock at one end that has no earthly reason being there?   

[jmaine]

Actually that tree is on my property.  I'm going cut it down and saw it up when I buy a mill.  Lot of good boards in that tree.   

Joe

[Toolman]

If a Timberking 1220 shows up for sale in your area, give that a look at too. I started out with one. They are nice for what you want to do. They offer extensions if you want anything longer than 12 ft. You might want to check "Sawmill Exchange". Might have a variety of used mills in your area. To answer your main question "Should I buy a mill?"  YES!

[jwoods]

jmaine,

I have to agree with all the comments thus far.  It sounds like a no-brainer that the mill would pay for itself.  If you buy a reputable brand, they will cut extremely accurate, the dime thickness comment is dead-on. 

A couple of other things to consider:

1.  Do you have enough trees on your current property, -or- access to other timber for cheap should you not have enough to complete the construction projects?

2.  How much available time and machinery do you have.  The easy part is milling.  My rule of thumb is it's 80% getting ready to run the sawmill and working on the peripheral stuff, -the rest is actually making boards.  The hard part is the cutting, stacking, skidding, stacking, re-handling, and stacking.  This can all be done manually, but by the time a piece of wood goes from a tree to hanging on the side of the house, you've handled it at least 5-7 times.

I bought a manual mill 10 years ago, and homesteaded our current property ~40 acres of timber.  We've got farm tractors and I skid with an old Chevy 4*4.   My projects included -a 700 feet of board fence, white oak and ash for the house trim and cabinets, and most recently siding and lumber for a 70 by 70 mill/machinery shed.   On the side I cut for neighbors and such to pay for blades.  Has the mill paid for itself?  Without a doubt.

[clousert]

If you don't count the labor, it will always be cheaper to build a building or your project by sawing your own logs to make it happen.  We are in the process this fall of erecting a 34 x 64 dairy barn addition, all with our own sawn lumber.  We didn't have time to log our own timber, so we just bought a load of pine logs for $800.  These logs will give me enough to frame the entire barn, on a concrete block foundation.  And I will still have 1/2 of the logs remaining to saw out other things.  We are purchasing rafters, just because it takes so long to build trusses, but they can even be sawn too, with a patient builder.

If you are a mechanical-thinker, and don't mind the extra labor involved, buy a mill.  It's the best way to go.  Watch for building code issues in your area.  You can get your lumber stamped to pass code.  Farmers are exempt, and many local-area inspectors will work with you.  Some will not.

[zopi]

Yes. Get a mill. if you are inclned to make boards at all, it will drive you insane if you cannot...you already seem to have sawdust in your blood....
Consider a used LT-40 hyd, can get some great deals on them if you look around, and believe me, I love my LT 15,
but it will work the daylights out of you...I wouldn't take less mill than the 15, but the 40 will take alot less out of you and will give alot more..the lt15 with an extra section and log package ought to be about 8k new,,best deal I've seen on a 40 hyd recently was about 11k....and they last forever.
yeah there are other mills out there, but I am stuck on orange...I cant speak intelligently about the others..haven[t used them..

as far as wood supply..here in va, I have never run out of logs to saw...and I have never paid for one..I treecycle, and have even begun doing some light tree service in exchange for firewood and saw logs...

either way you go it will pay for itself if you use any lumber at all.