Author Topic: Need Advice "Pronto," I got the fever bad after going to W.M. at Shade Gap, PA (Read 2377 times)

H60 Hawk Pilot · « **on:** October 02, 2009, 07:04:41 pm »

I'd like your Advice regarding the correct saw, price evaluation and what ever you care to kick in... but be kind.

Today, I went to Wood - Mizer in Shade gap. PA (it's the only place I know of within reasonable drive distance).

Before I go through the line up & pricing, let me cover my intent.

I'd like to cut enough pine to do two cabins, my property has yellow pine and white pine tree's for sale on the adjoining property. The W P are good size, about 30 to 38 inches I'd say. I have alot of hardwood that would make tie-cuts. 112 acres was clear cut in 1997. Some of the tree's were left standing. Some are crooked trees that were left behind. I also want to cut locust for a pole barn. The min. lenth will be 20 feet long.

Here's the estimate of tree's to be cut -- Yellow pine = 300, White pine = 150, Mixed Hardwood = 500, Locust = 100, Other = 100

Helper available (1) 14 YO Son (after school & weekends). I do not intend to get into custom sawing and need to build kilm to process some of the lumber and air dry as well. Interested in cutting D-type logs for cabin walls as well.

Todays , Saw Line Up & Prices at WM

(1) used LT 40 Manual, 18 HP Onan, Log Loader, Elec. Up & Dwn & Power Feed & Return, Jaw Type Log Roller, Mid 1980's as guess, set for the last 4 years (rusted) , saw is being gone over and 100% good to go after repair, as is, $ 12K.

The other is (LT70), Super Hdy., CAT Diesel, Remote Hydrostatics, 1360 hours, 2005 year model, $ 27K, as is, looks good.

Also, all the WM Line Up at current sale prices.

What's the advice.

gemniii · « **Reply #1 on:** October 02, 2009, 07:21:42 pm »

Have you researched the cost of just buying your lumber?
Right now it's almost selling at a loss in some areas.
Others on here have a lot more knowledge but from what I've read the cost of the mill is just the tip of the iceberg.
I'm wanting to get a small one, but for a hobby.

Dave Shepard · « **Reply #2 on:** October 02, 2009, 07:24:22 pm »

I'd go with the LT70 of those two choices. Cutting that many trees, especially if you are dealing with a lot of stuff over 30", is a lot of good old fashioned hard work. I've put about a eighty-thousand feet across a manual W-M, and a lot of it big stuff. I think that the extra $15k will be well spent, as it will reduce your time spent to probably 1/3. You will still have plenty to do, even after the trees have been sawn.

Those prices look good, from what I have seen. Good luck.

Tom · « **Reply #3 on:** October 02, 2009, 07:32:54 pm »

Hydraulics didn't get too much attention on WoodMizer mills until about 1989 and I wouldn't attempt that number of logs without hydraulis and other log handling devices.

Personally, I would pass up the mid-80's mill, if you've accurately aged it.

The LT70 is a lot of mill. It would be difficult to imagine your being unhappy with it, except for the initial outlay.

If my choice were Woodmizer, I would shop a used mill, but look for an LT40HD or more.

It's hard to go wrong with a WoodMizer mill, but you should also take a gander at some of the other bandmills too. WoodMizer is the only cantilever, but there are some good 4 posts mills out there.

Depending on what product you wish to end up with, you might also be smart to look at Peterson's or Lucas' swing mills. The swing mills do a good job of cutting construction lumber and smaller boards, while minimizing the log handling. The bandmills will cut it all, along with wide boards, but the log handling might be a little more complicated.

One thing for sure, you are setting yourself up to have some prime time with your boy.

Dan_Shade · « **Reply #4 on:** October 02, 2009, 07:56:21 pm »

Tom and Dave won't lead you wrong

Neither will Marty.

I would not want to tackle that much lumber without hydraulics. An LT70 is a lot of mill, but if you can afford the outlay of cash for it, it will make you smile.

H60 Hawk Pilot · « **Reply #5 on:** October 02, 2009, 08:04:33 pm »

Tom & All

I have been leaning towards a swing blade but have never seen one operate other then U-Tube and Liked what I saw.

Gary sent me a tape of his Timberline 6610, VW power, not a lot of hours, will extend out to cut 20 ft. stuff, priced around $ 12K or a little less.. perhaps.

I have seen Used Lucas Mills 6/18 for $ 5,500 to $ 8,500 but nothing around PA that I saw listed anywhere. I thought the Lucas design was Ok but did not care for the support beam system.

The Mobile Dimension is my current choice but nothing in my back yard to see, buy or test operate .. that I know of ?

I can get into Brand X for $ 14,500 .. however.. still in the same boat, tough for me to buy a saw that I have not operated.

Regarding the purchase of the lumber and it's dirt cheap, that's the smartest thing that I've heard all day. However, I need to get the 14 year old out of the house.. away from computer and TV. I bought a 370 HP speed boat in March that got my kid out of the house but boating season is over now.

I need to get him out of the house for the fall season now, the sawmill should do it. Also, buying sawmill for better health reason >> excercise program, male bonding with my one & only kid, calling out trees that need to be cut. Also,lot's of other reasons that... I ain't thought of yet (the fever is burning deep inside & hand shake).

Big Smiles, some BS above but mostly right on for buying mill..

Avery

Dan_Shade · « **Reply #6 on:** October 02, 2009, 08:19:01 pm »

why not find a few folks within driving distance, and go out and work with them for a day.

I find mills to be like vehicles, a lot of folks are partial to what they own or use. If you want a swingmill, find a local one, and see if he'll let you help for a day, I know woodmizer has owners set up that will demo mills if you are interested.

Where are you located?

I've worked around a swing mill, and I much prefer bandsaws. but some folks have differing opinions (which is what makes the world go round)

H60 Hawk Pilot · « **Reply #7 on:** October 02, 2009, 08:29:08 pm »

Located in Huntingdon PA 16652, sort of southern PA, central part of PA. I'm 34 miles south of State College, 34 miles east of Altoona.

arbakerjr@aol.com

BAT Tel. with Magic Jack 412 250 7746 < great tel. no# to give out, no damage can result.

Avery

DanG · « **Reply #8 on:** October 02, 2009, 08:44:33 pm »

Well shucks, Crashhawk! If it's just a Mobile Dimension Saw you wanta see, you can just come play with mine. I'm in easy driving distance...not more'n a couple of days...and the big Moultrie Ag show is coming up in less than three weeks.

You can't really look at the cost of the mill if you buy a used one for one project. You gotta look at what sort of deal you got on it. For instance, you could probably give the WM folks the $27K for that LT-70, whack up your trees and sell it for what you had in it. That theory only holds up if you are able to part with it when the time comes.

Dave Shepard · « **Reply #9 on:** October 02, 2009, 08:53:16 pm »

It's a myth DanG, nobody has ever parted with their mill when the project is done.

I'll agree with other comments regarding the LT40 Hydraulic mills being a better choice. Two guys without a bunch of support equipment won't use the potential of the 70 (but it would sure be fun to run

). Our LT40 Super runs me ragged with an edger and loader. As for the swinger type mills, I don't have any experience.

DanG · « **Reply #10 on:** October 02, 2009, 09:01:16 pm »

Quote from: Dave Shepard on October 02, 2009, 08:53:16 pm

It's a myth DanG, nobody has ever parted with their mill when the project is done.

I know dat and you know dat, but he don't know dat!

H60 Hawk Pilot · « **Reply #11 on:** October 02, 2009, 09:11:22 pm »

Dang

I want you to know that I ain't never come close to crashing my "CrashHawk" my last flight was 09 Aug., 09. I have about 3,800 hours in the Hawk. I have run the Hawk flat out at 193 K (max. in dive) and up hill too >>> nearly straight up, pedal turn at the top at around 30 knots then right back down and then do her again, etc. .

I forgot to mention... have a demo of the LT 70 at 8:30 tomorrow morning. If I buy it, they will train me on it & we will see. I moved my money out of savings today and that's a bad sign... looking to buy... bad with fever.

I had no intention of slamming 27K into a Sawmill, I thought 15 k was my limit. However, if the LT 70 hammers tomorrow and does great things, my next post may be as the proud owner of the LT70.

You are right about WM resale value. They just sold a WM LT40 HDG that was 3 years old (nice shape) for around 5 K of its price new, that's good resale value in anyone's book.

Avery

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #12 on:** October 02, 2009, 09:21:00 pm »

Have you ever thought about a circle mill? You can get good production, and if you're only going to saw your own logs, you can make it a nice operation. You can get hand mills for around $5k that are in decent shape, and that's with power.

Take a drive up to Port Matilda and see Woody1. He put a Frick handmill on the back of a trailer. It looks like this:

As for sawing cabin logs, its best to make a 6x8, then send them out and have them shaped. We take ours over to Mifflintown. You get a much better end product.

I'm curious to the specie that you're calling yellow pine. The only native yellow pine in that area is pitch pine. Also known as bull pine. I've never seen that many in one area. Sure its not hemlock?

Trees are measured as diameter at breast height, which is called dbh. Its a measurement at 4.5' above the ground. When you're talking 30-38" pine, where are they measured?

Crooked logs make crooked lumber. You can saw it straight, but it won't stay that way.

Dave Shepard · « **Reply #13 on:** October 02, 2009, 09:24:29 pm »

You are so toast.

You haven't mentioned what other equipment you have, or need. Before you plunk down the dough on the mill, you might want to consider how you are going to get the logs out of the woods, move them to the mill, handle sawn lumber and slabs/sawdust. Do you have storage area for all of the product you will make? You may have this worked out, but I don't want you to come home with the mill tomorrow without having weighed those factors.

You may not want to do any custom work, but your son might if he likes this kind of thing. If he helps you for a few years, he might find he would like to run it for profit part time. More than one person has sent themselves to college using a Wood-Mizer.

H60 Hawk Pilot · « **Reply #14 on:** October 02, 2009, 09:49:09 pm »

Ron & Dang & All

The White Pine from the Hicks Property next door are big ones and they ar 30 to 38 at the base (big trees).

The Yellow Pine is another story. I was told by the previous (Raymond Vaughan) owner that they were rare trees for our area. They average around 20 to 25 inches I'd say.

I looked up Yellow Pine and found nothing. Yes, the Pitch and Jack pine trees came up on a search. I cut alot of Jack pine when I was on our farm for paperwood. I have been away from the woods (trees) since the 60's. I am repeating what I was told like a parrot. I will take some pic's of the (? Yellow pine ?) and match them up. Sorry that I don't know my trees anymore. Give me a few weeks and I'll be better than brain dangerous (hopefully).

Regarding the crooked trees. I see that some parts of the larger oak tree's for a tie-cut or two, the rest is firewood. These type of crooked trees need to go away, what good are they.. firewood or whatever. I want to plant some seeding trees in the spring where the junk trees were.

That's all I know for now.... remember the plan .. get me & Son out of the house for Health reasons, male bonding or dis-bonding (depends on who's operating the sawmill) & Tree I D classes when time permits <<< now that's a funny

).

H60 Hawk Pilot · « **Reply #15 on:** October 02, 2009, 10:14:50 pm »

List of Equipment.
(graps, chains, chokers, logging stuff since the 60's
(3) Homelite saws, no junkers
TD-340 IHC with Winch bought new in 1966, 1580 hrs.
977 CAT Loader, with Gen. Purpose & Grn. Clearing Bucket w/ Hdy. Shaker
91 Marmon, 425, 15 sp., Complete OH w/ 40K on Build.
94 KW, W-900 being setup as Hvy Haul Tractor w/ 3rd lift axle.
02 Chev. Top Kick C & C, bought for flat bed dump add-on
87 Utility Truck, 70 series with 12K crane
97 Chev. Box Van, 24 foot
48 ft Washbash box trailer, skylight roof
78 5000 IHC Dump, parting out to set up 02 Chev.
91, 87, 87 Chev. 1 tons, 3/4 tons all running, no junk.

3 gas powered 300/250/200 amp Lincoln Welders
Complete Shop for Working on Big trucks & Equipment, to include 600 HP engine dyno, 2 lathes, 2 milling machines, radial arm drill, 3 Pressure washers, etc., all in all tools alone.. about $200K, your'e welcome to drop in & check my toast ? Also, If I buy the LT70 tomorrow, I'll pay cash, how's that Good Buddy.

Avery

gemniii · « **Reply #16 on:** October 02, 2009, 10:35:40 pm »

Quote from: H60 Hawk Pilot on October 02, 2009, 09:49:09 pm

The White Pine from the Hicks Property next door are big ones and they ar 30 to 38 at the base (big trees).

Base as in where your foot is? Your breast?

Quote from: H60 Hawk Pilot on October 02, 2009, 09:49:09 pm

The Yellow Pine is another story. I was told by the previous (Raymond Vaughan) owner that they were rare trees for our area. They average around 20 to 25 inches I'd say.

Quote

Certain pines (Pinus) in the subgenus Pinus subgenus Pinus:

* In American forestry, a term for several closely related species of pine with yellow tinted wood, including the Southern Yellow Pines (Loblolly Pine, Slash Pine, Shortleaf Pine, etc.), and the non-Southern yellow pines (Ponderosa Pine, Jeffrey Pine, etc.) and several others. More than one of these species may occur at any one site, with the term 'yellow pine forests' typically used in forestry and ecology to describe such forests or stands that contain more than one of these species.

Sounds like your set on a father son project. Take good care of the mill, slap it in good storage and it might go up in price.
If your going to buy the white pine get it in the next year, before prices start back up.
Around here pine sawtimber has gone from $50/ton down to $26/ton since '05 http://msucares.com/forestry/prices/reports/.

fishpharmer · « **Reply #17 on:** October 02, 2009, 10:52:22 pm »

I will tell you what you want
to hear.

Go ahead and buy that LT70

I predict that if you test drive it you will own it.

DanG · « **Reply #18 on:** October 02, 2009, 11:33:38 pm »

Yeah, that LT70 is sold! I can see that from here!

Crash, that "Crashhawk" thing is just good old fashioned leg-pulling, but I know you already knew that. You may as well get used to it.

Now that you've got your mill

you need to think real hard about the next steps. Just take the "worst first" from that vertical log pile you got in front of you and go to school on them.

Oh by the way. In your spare time, don't forget that we like pics.

H60 Hawk Pilot · « **Reply #19 on:** October 03, 2009, 12:52:06 am »

DanG

I have been checking into this Sawmill Forum since I discovered it in March, I think.
I really loved the Build a Swing Blade Post, I was all over it and notice your words of wisdom at this time.

I did not remember that tree's are measured at breast height. I'd just look at the tree at eye level and get real close the dia. eye balling.

My grand father had a steam powered mill (1910/20's) years ago. My dad and his brother's worked the mill. One day one of the governor weights came off and it ran away. The mill tore itself apart and pulleys and what not flew everywhere, never rebuilt, junk. However, I remember the storys of virgin timber and lived this business. Later on, I became a heavy equipment/ diesel mechanic by trade.

However, the best times of my life was spent in the woods cutting, skidding, loading up & running loads of logs or paperwood to the mill(s).

I don't have thin skin, perhaps I took the snipes wrong, I'll adjust myself to the correct setting. This is No joke, my Son is missing the boat in regard to the real world. Most of the kids are like him, computers, gamers, I-Pod, etc. .

I tried to teach him the diesel mech. business since I retired from the Army. He does not have an interest and boring. He can't fix his bike without 100 % supervison. I tried to get him interested in flying while I still had my hand in it... not-aa.

The sawmill deal will happen because it's a the best move for my property and I need a change of pace. I'm a little burned out on the diesel business, just another broken hunk of iron, very few smiles at the close of the day. He may hook up or not, I know that he'll be out of the house and present at the job site, we willl see !

If that LT 70 make's me smile from ear to ear, I'll own it. It will kill me to shell out 27K. I've bought other toys that were just that... toys this LT 70 is a high speed... low drag machine. They have New LT40 Hdg's too for 24K I think.

Yep, I can post picture's and we will see what goes down tomorrow. I wish the Sawmill Exchange was up, they post used machines a couple times a week (swing mill ?) .

Also, it's going to be 70 degrees in PA, so it's the last boat ride on the lake, pictures of that too. I have some pic's of the last Hawk I flew in Aug. . I can add them to my gallery, that's a real buzz saw for sure, 1,700 HP X's 2.

Later,

Avery

bandmiller2 · « **Reply #20 on:** October 03, 2009, 06:35:14 am »

Avery,you have what it takes.The LT70 is quite a mill the culmination of all woodmizer has learned over the years,I operate one and it never stops surprising me what it will do.Your mind is pretty much made up but what Ron says about handset circular mills rings true,its the most bang for your mill buck,but not for everyone.Most of the younger generation are not interested in real activities anymore only the tube.You are either a mechanic or not, like dairy farming if you don't love it you can't do it.Give your setup alot of thought to reduce the strain on your back,and any mill worth owning deserves a roof.Frank C.

ladylake · « **Reply #21 on:** October 03, 2009, 06:42:02 am »

With those big logs you want hp, hydraulics and a chain turner. Steve

thecfarm · « **Reply #22 on:** October 03, 2009, 06:51:32 am »

If I wanted to get my son involved in sawing, I would get the hyd one.It's no fun to turn really any size log on a manual mill or push and pull the head all day long.It's can get old real fast no matter who you are. It's hard enough just off bearing all day long.Show him how to run the mill and he will be wearing out his Father stacking lumber.

Have him decide how to get the most out of a log. Mistakes and all will be done.Don't worry about all the stuff that will go wrong when he's sawing. That's all part of learning how to saw.Almost any 14 year old would walk away from a manual mil never to return.Now a mill that does most of the hard stuff,and all he has to do is push buttons to see the end results,now that should help to get him to run the mill.

MartyParsons · « **Reply #23 on:** October 03, 2009, 07:56:04 am »

It is a LT40HDD51-RA not a LT70. Should work great for his application. It is listed on the used mill section of WM site.

I am in Elkins, WV. Todd will show him the ropes today.
Marty

Dave Shepard · « **Reply #24 on:** October 03, 2009, 08:18:22 am »

Looks like you've got plenty of backup equipment for the milling operation.

By the "toast" comment I meant you would be helpless to the charms of an LT70, said jokingly of course.

I know I would be.

We have the 51 HP Super Hydraulic at work. That will put on a good showing too. Ours is the wireless remote. It's nice to not be in the dust.

MotorSeven · « **Reply #25 on:** October 03, 2009, 09:29:29 am »

"Regarding the purchase of the lumber and it's dirt cheap, that's the smartest thing that I've heard all day. However, I need to get the 14 year old out of the house.. away from computer and TV. I bought a 370 HP speed boat in March that got my kid out of the house but boating season is over now.

I need to get him out of the house for the fall season now, the sawmill should do it. Also, buying sawmill for better health reason >> excercise program, male bonding with my one & only kid, calling out trees that need to be cut. Also,lot's of other reasons that... I ain't thought of yet (the fever is burning deep inside & hand shake). "

That's the best reason I ever heard of for buying a mill & sawing. Your 100% right, get that kid off the computer/tv and doing real life stuff.......priceless!

RD

beenthere · « **Reply #26 on:** October 03, 2009, 11:00:48 am »

Motorseven
Let us know how buying the kid new "toys" to entice him away from the computer and TV works.

It'll be expensive.

What I did (back in the day when there was no computer) was turn the TV off. Relented on one program "Little House on the Prairie" as the only one other than sports that could be watched. Amazing how 4 kids could find books to read, and games to play, and even help with firewood when they were not in front of the TV. Also started making things from wood in my shop.
I'd do the same with the computer unless it was schoolwork. Simply "off".

H60 Hawk Pilot · « **Reply #27 on:** October 03, 2009, 11:14:36 am »

Did not get down to WM this morning. Woke up to a inch or so of water in basement. The dog went nuts in the early morning about something outside. The lab beat up the hotwater baseboard element next to the basement door & the element sprung a leak on the one end. I bought new element & installed and placed a couple blocks next to the element to keep big lab from a repeat performance.

Called down to WM & Marty should be in on Monday, we'll give it a go this Monday. The mill is not a LT70, it's a LT40 and listed on the WM web site. I wrote the. info down in the wrong block (LT70 Blk.) on the WM sale flyer.

Avery

Chris Burchfield · « **Reply #28 on:** October 05, 2009, 11:48:35 am »

I know how I like mine. Can we place bets?

Magicman · « **Reply #29 on:** October 05, 2009, 01:34:29 pm »

Good luck. I hope everything works out......

H60 Hawk Pilot · « **Reply #30 on:** October 05, 2009, 08:19:43 pm »

I went down to WM, Shade Gap and Marty demo'd the (used) LT40 Super. The mill did a good job and one could get used to operating something this nice, pretty smooth machine.

I priced out a New LT40HD 28HPGas & LT40HD 28HP Gas with Remote w/ ASET.

Bottom line... it comes down choice and what works best for me tomorrow and several months from now. I did not know about the 60 day time period offered by WM; where I could upgrade to another mill if I'm not satisfied with the mill I bought.

I bought a 24 foot roll back on Sunday to haul my equipment around. The 74 Chevy is a older truck but decent and operated well, also tandem axle, it should be a handy truck for hauling lumber too.

I'll keep you all informed, something is gonn-aa happen, choices, choices and more choices.

Avery

.

fishpharmer · « **Reply #31 on:** October 05, 2009, 08:25:06 pm »

Okay. We are all on the edge of our seat

News:

Author Topic: Need Advice "Pronto," I got the fever bad after going to W.M. at Shade Gap, PA (Read 2377 times)