Drying River Salvaged Timber

[rfpetty]

Hi All,
I just joined yesterday and have to say....Extremely Impressed!!
I've been woodworking for 5 years now and have been looking to get into other
aspects involving "where my wood comes from" and I don't think I could have hit a better forum.

Now that the customary "suck up to the forum vets" intro is over, let me get down to the heart of the matter.

I have recently imported approx. 5000 bdft of river salvaged timber from Central America. I have 4 different species in this load, (H. Mahogany, Bullet Tree, Sapodilla, and Santa Maria) and we sawed the roughly squared timbers into lumber and planks on Sept. 3rd. We have some incredible material here, (see pics below), except for one "slight" problem. The stuff is wet as a dish rag. The planks, as beautiful as they are, were steaming as they came off the log and from what the mill manager is telling me, we could be looking at an extremely long kiln time for them if we want to avoid damage.


So, I'm here to see if any of you have had any experience with this type of material and what was done to dry it. I've been doing a lot of surfing and have come to the early conclusion that vac drying may be my only alternative and that RF/Vac drying may also be required to get good stable material.

Any advice and or comments are welcome.
Thanx.

[scsmith42]

Welcome to the forum!

My advice is for you to call Don Lewis at Nyle Corp.  Nyle is a leading manufacture of dehumidification kilns, and their products are used worldwide for just about every species imaginable, in just about every scale imaginable (from hobbiest up to very large commercial). 

Don is  super nice fellow with a ton of experience, and he is not a BSer. 

Unless you're cutting 16/4 material, I wouln't think that you'd need a vacume kiln.

Scott

[rfpetty]

Thanx Scott!

I will give Don a call and see what he thinks. We do have some of the Bullet Tree cut at 16/4 to be made into turning blanks but that is the thickest material we cut. Other than that it is all 4/4, 6/4, 8/4 and some 12/4. I'm not too worried about the 16/4 as far as turning blanks are considered as there are many turners out there that like turning wet wood anyway. It's the other that I'm concerned with. Nyle deals in DH kilns, correct?

Rich.

[scsmith42]

Thanx Scott!

I will give Don a call and see what he thinks. We do have some of the Bullet Tree cut at 16/4 to be made into turning blanks but that is the thickest material we cut. Other than that it is all 4/4, 6/4, 8/4 and some 12/4. I'm not too worried about the 16/4 as far as turning blanks are considered as there are many turners out there that like turning wet wood anyway. It's the other that I'm concerned with. Nyle deals in DH kilns, correct?

Rich.

Rich, you're welcome.

Nyle is a leading manufacturer of DH kilns.


I wouldn't thnk that there would be a problem with the 4/4 through 8/4.

[Den Socling]

There might be a couple problems with using a DH kiln in this application. Salvaged wood is very, very wet. A DH kiln is a slow conventional kiln and it takes the water off the surface like any other conventional kiln. Drying would take a month of Sundays and you might still end up with cracks.

[jim king]

I have worked with a fair amount of tropicals that have been under water for many years.  Some over 100 years in front of an old abonded mill near town .

My experience is saw it and take it slow in the drying.  I sticker every foot with kiln dried stickers and have banks of fans blowing thru the lumber for a couple of months.  Most species will move a lot if not stickered well.

End sealing is a must.  Submerged timber  at least here in the Amazon is very prone to cracking if not end sealed and that is not a 100% solution but the best there is.   We have processed many unknown species that had turned dark grey to black over the years in the water and were stunning.  Spanish cedar will turn a beautiful chocolate brown if sunk in the acidic water tributaries .
 
Mahogany, Spanish Cedar and other fairly soft woods were the easiest to work with.  Sunken wood is worth the effort.

[rfpetty]

Thanx Again Den,

I think you're correct on your comments about using a kiln on this material without vacuum. All the online info I'm seeing north of the border with Mexico seems to lean towards vacuum drying to get material to market in a financially feasible time frame. Georgian Bay Wet Wood, www.georgianbaywetwood.com, is probably the best example of this as they are using RF/Vac kilns with huge presses in the housing to keep the wood straight and flat while it's dried. They've partnered with 2 other companies to afford this solution but it looks as though it's paying off.

Jim!!
Finally! I run into someone that has experience with this particular type of material.
Yes, this material is old....very old....we contend this material was harvested upwards of 200 years ago and yes...it is stunning material.

Of the 8 logs of Mahogany we sawed, I measured the ring count of the smallest one and it was 35rpi. Needless to say, I was like a kid on X-mas morning. I was a week getting the grin off my face after we sawed the material. This caveat with the drying is one I'm sure we are going to get through. I'm working with some great people in a large mill operation here in Central Missouri and we will figure this thing out sooner or later.

I think we have a very valuable material here in the right market and as you said I agree that it is worth the effort. When you see what real Mahogany is supposed to look like, (something us woodworkers haven't seen in upwards of 100 years), it's something that drives you to carry on.

RP

[solidwoods]

No prob to dry.
But you will have a prob with different thickness.  A kiln load/schedule is based on 1 thickness.  So each thickness should go in the kiln alone.
4/4 will be 6-8weeks  8/4 I'd have to look it up but it's a long time.  If you can properly air dry the 8/4  (or any lumber)  the kiln time is less.  But the air drying should be done by someone that has a proofed/proven air dry area.
jim

[tughill]

How much internal tension is in a piece of lumber that needs to be held down in the kiln with a hydraulic press?  Answer...lots! 

I think the right answer is (have to admit I only have experience with native wood, cut in the forest, not salvaged) stack and stick and properly air dry.  Do this in an open area, that gets plenty of air circulation(not in the woods, not inbetween your house and garage where the wind doesn't blow).  An area with hard, dry, flat, level, ground, stack lumber on something to keep it well off the ground, like 8x8" timbers, line up stickers in precise vertical lines over 8x8's, and use enough sticks- I like a stick 1' from each end of the board, and every 2' in between.  Cover the top layer with metal roofing sheets, on top of another layer of sticks, not on the boards.  Put some big old heavy slabs or straight pieces of channel iron on top of the tin for weight and to keep the tin from blowing away.  Leave lumber undisturbed for a year, minimum.  Then if it's still not low enough moisture, take it to the kiln, and let them try to ruin it.

Can you tell I think that kilns are a FASTER but not BETTER way of drying?  They do have their purpose, but I think your situation is not one of them.  Many will disagree with me: kiln salesmen, kiln owners who want to sell you time in their cooker, etc.

[Den Socling]

tughill has a good handle on air drying but there is a big advantage to using a kiln. A conventional kiln works the same as air drying but you aren't risking your wood to mother nature.

And solidswoods is correct when he says that published schedules are for 4/4. When you go to 8/4, you need to increase the time 250%. That's a long time to be trusting your wood to the weather. When you go to 12/4 or 16/4, it's time to look for a vacuum kiln.

[tughill]

Hi Den,
I'm curious what you mean by 'risking your wood to mother nature'?

I found some stacks of cherry and walnut out back of my grandfather's mill a few years ago, that were well stacked, and had been there for over 15 years.  Lumber was beautiful.  And some that was poorly stacked and left uncovered, that was worm food.  I think it depends on how it is done.

I also have some large pine boards (12/4 x 30" wide by 16' long) that were sawed from a couple very large logs about 5 years ago, that I stacked outside for about 3 years to dry before bringing them inside to finish drying and make a desk out of.  No problems whatsoever.

[red oaks lumber]

risking to mother nature, you have no control of moisture loss, every wood dries differntaly(sp) in a kiln you can control the moisture loss

[SwampDonkey]

Also fungus and beetles, depending on how long it stays in green condition. And green is any moisture content that is high enough that the wood isn't shrinking. Most beetles won't bother it sawed, but some do, like powder post.

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

And Welcome to the forum Rich  theres no need to suckup Mate 

Your in an intresting line of work there as dealing with Waterlogged timber is a compleatly different beast altogether and can do some pretty weird things  ;)like having uneven Mc's thorugh out the whole log of Free and bound water  and getting cell collapse during the drying phase in kilns as you are forcing the water out of the cells then you have to do a reco on the whole lot    Ive  ive done a fair amount of waterlogged Aust H/wood warf piles over the years and i have allways personaly leant towards Air drying this sort of stuff  and letting it do what its going to do id just sugest building a nice pole framed airdry shed with a tinn roof and shadecloth sides to keep the airflow down and the Uv rays of the sides during summer I myself wouldnt risk running a mixed species charge of waterlogged timber in a kiln as it could get costly in respect to the chance of loseing most of the charge to Degrade  so if you have the time and the space to do it id let it come down to Emc in its own time Mate 

Regards Chris 

[woodmills1]

I would use air drying first before any kiln load.  I seem to remeber the first load of great lakes logs was cut on an LT 40 and air dried first.........lotsa profit

and the second haul was cut on an LT 70 and direct into a new kiln and whammo cell failure

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Water soaked wood will "Drain" free water out, then the bound water comes out.

  Go to Jim King's gallery, and look at the photos of the lumber stacked VERTICALLY.

  Down here, it's done the same way. Once the excess water is out, then, lay it horizontal.

  Air dry before kiln drying. In the states, that should be as quick as down here, in the tropics.

  Jim says END sealer is a must. Having done a lot of sunken logs, myself, I agree.

  Once you ruin a load, you will see what the tropical advice is worth.

  End sealer is cheap. I'm searching for it down here.  Use plenty of stickers.

[Meadows Miller]

Fdh BP makes a dang nice end sealer that ive been using for years you can buy it in 5 - 20 and 44 gal drums its not too steep and you can dilute it for denser woods it has a waxy finish we used it on H/wood logs ,sleepers ,beams and the like Mate

Regards Chris

[Fla._Deadheader]

 That's what I am searching for, Chris. I don't get my point across too well, in my poor Spanish language.

 We know the city where it is sold, but, have not found the company to deal with, yet. I have a phone number to try, tomorrow.

[Meadows Miller]

Fdh
If you have any dramas finding a supplyer overthere im pretty sure the company i delt with wod have no dramas sending some over to you just let me know if you want me to sett it up Mate 

Regards Chris

[SwampDonkey]

FDH, do they build a type of rack to lean the lumber onto so it don't bow in the middle when drying the free water out? I can understand why they stack it that way, since it's easier for water to come out along the grain, like a wick. I suppose they check for shrinkage to know when to stack horizontal. Shrinkage means we are losing bound water now. Well you know all that stuff anyway, but I was wondering about the vertical stacking and if a drying rack of some type was used.

[Fla._Deadheader]

Hang a board or long pole between limbs on 2 different trees, or, put 2 posts of some sort in the ground, and fasten the board or post to them.

  Stand the lumber on edge leaning against the pole or board,

  Alternate from one side of the pole or board, to the other. This leaves air space. Rain does not matter, for a good while.

  Usually, one or 2 guys are sent out to turn the lumber to the other edge, every 2-5 days, to prevent warpage.

  If it works in the tropics, with daily rain storms, I see no reason for it to not work up in the Nawth.

[geohayes7]

Hi Rich ever heard of the guys at greener lumber in mo. ?

[Den Socling]

I would make a bad salesman - I'm always mixing up names, but I think Rich is Greener Lumber.

[geohayes7]

I was thinking that to.