Author Topic: Risky tree cut (Read 4341 times)

Qweaver · « **on:** September 01, 2009, 07:20:54 pm »

I've been asked to help fell a big 36" poplar that is a danger to buildings in every direction except straight up the hill. The slope is actually a little more steep than my drawing shows. My only part is to pull the tree with my dozer to keep it from hitting the houses to the left , right and below the tree. The base of the tree will be chained to a large, strong stump directly above the tree to keep in from sliding into the building directly below the tree.
The tree will be cut by a guy that my cousin says is an experienced tree service man.
This man has proposed to make a single angled cut from back to front without a notch. (see the drawing) I've felled hundreds of trees but never in this type of situation. This looks dangerous to me. Why not cut a notch? Any thoughts?
Thanks

ErikC · « **Reply #1 on:** September 01, 2009, 07:34:58 pm »

I would have no part of that if I was you. Cutting with no notch, and pulling with a tractor to boot, is surely going to barber-chair. That tree if green is heavy enough to break a chain, and it will be shooting backward with force as well. I can't see how anyone who is an experienced tree worker would come up with this.

Ernie · « **Reply #2 on:** September 01, 2009, 07:53:20 pm »

I'd watch someone else tackle that job from a safe distance if I were you.

Please post a link to the video afterwards

Dave Shepard · « **Reply #3 on:** September 01, 2009, 07:55:14 pm »

I agree, not using a notch is bad practice. This type of felling is done every day in the PNW, on ground you can hardly stand on. A Humboldt notch is the typical cut used to address the tree shooting over the stump.

olyman · « **Reply #4 on:** September 01, 2009, 08:26:22 pm »

very doable--but not the way they envision--walk away fast--

Reddog · « **Reply #5 on:** September 01, 2009, 08:33:53 pm »

There are times to not use a notch, This is not one of those times.
As Dave pointed out, a Humbolt with a high stump would help to hold it on the hill.

Frickman · « **Reply #6 on:** September 01, 2009, 08:37:49 pm »

Wouldn't it be easier and safer to hire a climber and piece it down? I fell timber for a living yet I hire climbers all the time for jobs like that.

timberfaller390 · « **Reply #7 on:** September 01, 2009, 09:15:27 pm »

Yes, please post the video cause I ain't never got to see somebody killed in a bad logging accident before.

Qweaver · « **Reply #8 on:** September 01, 2009, 09:46:20 pm »

Thanks for the input everyone. I'm glad that you all feel the same as I do about this. I'll let the owner do the pulling with my dozer so that I have no liability in this.
Quinton

Frickman · « **Reply #9 on:** September 01, 2009, 10:01:49 pm »

If it's your dozer, you have liability.

logger444 · « **Reply #10 on:** September 01, 2009, 10:58:15 pm »

I'd make a full 90 degree notch (>)and leave about 3-4 inches of hinge. Set 2-4 wedges in the back cut and get the heck out the way. Have the Dozer op pull the tree over slow but steady. Make *DanG sure that the cable is much longer than the height of the tree. There are plenty of fools and farmers who have tried to pull a 100 foot tree with a 60 foot cable. Being a Poplar, i would bet the the tree will snap at the top of the hill. If your 90 held and worked well you will probably have to saw thru the hinge to pull the log up the hill. Make *DanG sure that you have reset a choker on this log and have just a little tension on the log. Your 90, your sidenotches to prevent slabbing, your hinge, your back cut..... all of these better be dead nuts accurate. Make these cuts as if your in a Douglas Dent or Soren Errickson video. If a 36 inch bar is available use that to minimize the chance of gettiing "lost" in the tree. I use the word heck and *DanG not to sound like a hick, but to really emphasize that you need to be real careful. good luck

beenthere · « **Reply #11 on:** September 01, 2009, 11:40:41 pm »

Been some great comments on that procedure.
One more I see is that the cat operator cannot see the cutting progress. Pulling too soon, too fast, or too late, or too slow may mess up the plan. Having someone pulling that knows tree felling is one thing that helps, but not being able to see the cutting, takes away that advantage.

Maybe it will work just fine as planned, as some people do get lucky.

But like the others, doesn't look like a good plan (especially the slanted back-to-front cut). And that chain attached to the stump may at first keep the tree from sliding into the house. But expect it to take a real beating when the top comes down, tossing the butt in the air. If that happens and the chain breaks, hopefully the cat will keep the tree from sliding down into the house. Its a "what-if", but now is the time to consider all the "what-ifs" and avoid a headache, or worse.

Banjo picker · « **Reply #12 on:** September 02, 2009, 05:14:57 am »

You did say there were houses to the left and right also...We just don't know where in proximity to your tree...When the tree starts down I doubt the dozer will be able to keep the preasure on...not fast enough....Strange things can happen...I have used my dozer to help countrol a tree a time or two, but I don't think I would be part nor parcel on that....Two many links in the chain....The cutter and the dozer man will have to rely on a third party to know what the other is doing. Signals can get mixed up. Tim

rickywashere · « **Reply #13 on:** September 02, 2009, 05:34:43 am »

well i can understand what the cutter is saying about the notch and the dozer pulling it as he's worried it pulling off the stump and rolling left or right but if he was good cutter then he would know how much hinge to save to stop that so you might need to look into a different saw man sounds if he has a little fear to start with . and with a job like that there is no place for that caution yes fear no way

mike_van · « **Reply #14 on:** September 02, 2009, 06:23:39 am »

The people doing this job want to be insured against damage to others property. I'd have to see that policy. Too much at risk with a tree that large to just wing it.

thecfarm · « **Reply #15 on:** September 02, 2009, 07:03:16 am »

A 36" inch is tree is some heavy and will do just about wants it wants to do,if not tied of correctly. I would not want anything to do with it.I would even not want to loan out my dozer for this tree.

Corley5 · « **Reply #16 on:** September 02, 2009, 08:34:24 am »

An insured tree service should do this job. It looks like a disaster in the making to me.

timberfaller390 · « **Reply #17 on:** September 02, 2009, 08:38:06 am »

I agree that is tree service all the way. Thats the kind of work they do all day long. thats what makes them tree services and us loggers. They get paid to take down just one tree.

chevytaHOE5674 · « **Reply #18 on:** September 02, 2009, 06:57:51 pm »

I would hire an insured tree service, theres a reason we take all day for one tree.

rickywashere · « **Reply #19 on:** September 02, 2009, 08:50:04 pm »

Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on September 02, 2009, 06:57:51 pm

I would hire an insured tree service, theres a reason we take all day for one tree.

would it be $$$$$$$$$$$$$

chevytaHOE5674 · « **Reply #20 on:** September 02, 2009, 09:10:25 pm »

If its just a limb, top, and chunk down with no cleanup then it wouldn't be all that expensive.

DonT · « **Reply #21 on:** September 02, 2009, 11:47:15 pm »

I have a question?From the origianal diagram provided and the scenario given what happens when the top 1/3 of tha tree hits the edge of the hill?is it not going to create a point for the rest of the tree to pivot on bringing the butt up in a hurry?When that happens and it hits that chain what happens to the butt then?In my opinion limb it, top it and block it down.

mike_van · « **Reply #22 on:** September 03, 2009, 06:25:06 am »

Sure it would - But with houses on 3 sides of it, they'd be $$$$$$$$ too if that tree split one in half.
[/quote]

would it be $$$$$$$$$$$$$
[/quote]

campy · « **Reply #23 on:** September 11, 2009, 04:36:40 pm »

Anchor the dozer in case the tree falls towards the house and yanks the dozer down the hill.
The cutter has to be out of the way when the tree is pulled.
Also, when tensioning the cable during the cut make sure not to put too much tension on or the tree can snap at the bottom.

Do not have the cutter get behind the tree at anytime.
He needs to be beside it because it can snap back or explode back from the intense leverage.

If the tree is rotten, hollow or has dead branches you need to use a climber.

Put the cable high up in the tree but on solid wood.
Pull slowly.

customsawyer · « **Reply #24 on:** September 11, 2009, 09:37:20 pm »

Run Forest run.

gemniii · « **Reply #25 on:** September 12, 2009, 05:14:44 pm »

Wouldn't it be safer to just go up to the top, start limbing it, then use a chainsaw mill to take it down a piece at a time

beenthere · « **Reply #26 on:** September 12, 2009, 06:04:02 pm »

Quote from: gemniii on September 12, 2009, 05:14:44 pm

Wouldn't it be safer to just go up to the top, start limbing it, then use a chainsaw mill to take it down a piece at a time

What kind of chainsaw mill is that?

gemniii · « **Reply #27 on:** September 12, 2009, 07:11:06 pm »

An Alaskan of course !

Just picture someone at the top of a tree, blowin in the wind, making lumber.

/edit - Gravity ASSist!

beenthere · « **Reply #28 on:** September 12, 2009, 07:32:00 pm »

DaveP · « **Reply #29 on:** September 13, 2009, 11:20:44 am »

Would some one explain what a Humbolt notch is and how it works.

Jeff · « **Reply #30 on:** September 13, 2009, 11:31:19 am »

This old Standby link can do that as well as any.

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/felling/cuts/notches/notches.html

DaveP · « **Reply #31 on:** September 13, 2009, 06:11:06 pm »

I use the Humbolt notch a lot. Didn't know that was the name for it.

rickywashere · « **Reply #32 on:** September 13, 2009, 06:32:18 pm »

Quote from: DaveP on September 13, 2009, 06:11:06 pm

I use the Humbolt notch a lot. Didn't know that was the name for it.

yea have used it a lot over the years i always call it a under cut notch

Magicman · « **Reply #33 on:** September 15, 2009, 12:03:58 pm »

Quote from: DaveP on September 13, 2009, 06:11:06 pm

I use the Humbolt notch a lot. Didn't know that was the name for it.

The logger that first showed it to me didn't know that it had a name either....

rebocardo · « **Reply #34 on:** September 20, 2009, 06:12:25 am »

> I doubt the dozer will be able to keep the preasure on...not fast enough.

You are 100% correct, with my big V-8 automatic 4x4 van floored sometimes it is barely able to keep up and keep tension on the cable. The thing to remember is the tree, if the hinge is broken, is going to be falling at 32 feet per second. The top of that tree will be on the ground in about 2 seconds. I would not cut that without using a hinge!

I posted pictures of my van with the roof crushed from a tree - happened because the guy on the dozer line did not pull fast enough and was not paying attention (cell phone) to my cutting.

I did this kind of work all the time, you really need two anchor lines and one pulling line (winch will not do - not fast enough) on a big V-8 truck. It will help if one of the anchor lines is also on a big truck (or dozer).

I have used my climbers on many dangerous jobs and this would be a dangerous job were pulling was not the safest option The biggest danger is you can not see the cutter nor the results of your pulling. If the tree starts to go bad, by the time it is relayed to you by cellphone, it might be too late.

On a 36" tree you will need 3/8" cable at a min. and besides wrapping with chain at the bottom just to prevent and contain a barber chair, on this one you should do it below where the cables are attached. The cables each should be attached at a different point with the pull cable attached the highest. I try to use a choker around big crotches so if the tree starts to split, the cables keep it together.

What I do with my climber is attach the chain to a rope and run it up on a pulley/crotch so he does not have to carry it with him. A 5/16 schedule 70 would be fine for preventing a barber chair at the top of the tree.

rebocardo · « **Reply #35 on:** September 20, 2009, 06:25:58 am »

FWIW: If I was doing this tree, I would use an open notch and cut it so the hinge stayed intact until at least the tree was on the slope. I would retension the anchor lines, then cut the top free if possible, then use the dozer to pull the trunk up in sections.

Tricky part is cutting the hinge, what I do is cut right below it because the hinge as it splinters and breaks can be quite dangerous. If I am cutting the hinge itself on a slope I would probably use my electric pole saw so I could cut it and be 10+ feet away (did that on a red oak). Basically nibble left to right sawing down gradually instead of cutting right through in one step.

Pictures of the tree 100 feet away would give a better idea of the job.

Kevin · « **Reply #36 on:** September 20, 2009, 09:31:17 am »

Rebo;
I'm with you right up until

Quote

Tricky part is cutting the hinge, what I do is cut right below it because the hinge as it splinters and breaks can be quite dangerous. If I am cutting the hinge itself on a slope I would probably use my electric pole saw so I could cut it and be 10+ feet away (did that on a red oak). Basically nibble left to right sawing down gradually instead of cutting right through in one step.

Never cut below the hinge.
Don't use a pole saw at all.

You should tension the high set pull line slightly.
Clear an escape route.
Start the felling cut using stump shot and add wedges as you advance to the hinge.
The pull line will hold the tree ahead and the wedges will support the tree from behind.
Watch the top, set up the hinge and get out of there, let the cat pull it over.
Don't do it on a windy day.

rebocardo · « **Reply #37 on:** September 25, 2009, 08:28:53 am »

> cut it so the hinge stayed intact until at least the tree was on the slope.

Never cut below the hinge.

I was talking about AFTER the tree was on the ground, I would never suggest risking a dutch man. Cutting down straight on the pulled fibers of a hinge, besides the vibration, can kick back like a spring pole. Especially on an open notch where the fibers are not broken during the fall.

> Don't use a pole saw at all.

Well, I have used a pole saw more then once to drop trees where I did not want to be close because the rotted falling bark/wood chunks could hurt or kill me.

Though I was talking about being far enough back to avoid saw kickback, but, most importantly being out of range of a log being pulled up a hill while releasing the hinge. To be behind directly behind a huge log, on a slope, with it being pulled uphill over a crest is very dangerous. I always assume the cable is going to break or the chain choker will loosen.

It is a lot easier to drop a pole saw and get, if something goes wrong then trying to drop a running saw and try to get 20 feet away behind stump or tree if something.goes wrong, imho.

Qweaver · « **Reply #38 on:** September 29, 2009, 09:55:13 am »

Thanks to everyone for the replies and suggestions. They have decided to take the tree down in pieces now. I will hook on and pull the last part up the hill. I used many of these posts to convince the owner. I was about to backout of the job otherwise.
Quinton

motohed · « **Reply #39 on:** December 16, 2009, 04:24:30 pm »

Quote from: ErikC on September 01, 2009, 07:34:58 pm

I would have no part of that if I was you. Cutting with no notch, and pulling with a tractor to boot, is surely going to barber-chair. That tree if green is heavy enough to break a chain, and it will be shooting backward with force as well. I can't see how anyone who is an experienced tree worker would come up with this.

I have to agree , a huge ditto !

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Author Topic: Risky tree cut (Read 4341 times)