R-12 replacement

[bandmiller2]

Not to spit snooze juice on the hot stove but have any of you guys ever used propane in place of hard to get R-12 in an old automotive A/C systems?? Frank C.

[Stan snider]

Frank 'I have done this a few times with mixed results,but mostly good. There are differences in propane from one lot to the next.You have probably noticed the way a pilot light burns  differently from one lot to the next if you use propane. I think for refrigeration it is best to only have one gas instead of  a blend of different vapor pressure gasses.  Getting them sorted could be tricky!! GOOD LUCK Stan
 

[pineywoods]

Not to spit snooze juice on the hot stove but have any of you guys ever used propane in place of hard to get R-12 in an old automotive A/C systems?? Frank C.

I've thought about it. We have a 76 ford pickup with r12 air conditioning. I see no reason why it wouldn.t work. One possibility-propane might not be compatible with some refrigeration oil. The usual response is "propane is explosive" So is 20 gallons of gasoline.

[bandmiller2]

Thanks guys for your comments most forums will just say "you'll shoot your eye out".Their are quite a few commercial R-12 replacements mostly propane with a little isopropane in a pretty can at 10 times the cost of propane.I have read that the burnsomatic fuel in the small cans is a more consistant product.Just used my last can of real R-12 in the old Lincoln it needs 12oz per year.I've been told it will work just as well as r-12 and compatable with the oil,but should not be mixed with R-12 because it will mess up recovery machines.Frank C.

[cheyenne]

There is a product called Frig that is an R12 drop in replacement.......Cheyenne

[SPIKER]

there are also several r134 replacements that mix quite well, they also have kits with sealers built in to stop the leaks..   Kits to do this are cheap compared to buying R12, I'm looking at doing this with my 91 f150 this year but didn't get to it as it never got hot enough to worry about using the AC in the truck as it only has gotten 6K miles in last 3 years anyhow...   I use it mostly in summer as for winter it is worthless 1 wheel drive and cant move down hill in snow/ice with out a push start...   hardly goes on wet grass     

winter time I use my pathfinder anyhow as it seems to go just about anyplace...   (though I did manage to drive UP on top of 4' snow drift in the back yard this past winter  which when I stopped and put it into park it sank about 6" which was to the axles onto the ice that covered the drift.)    took 45 min of digging with the tractor bucket to get it out, the tires were 8" from touching anything once I cleared the sides of it with the FEL.   had to chain drag it back off but I didn't get any snow into my sneakers    Tractor even spin without removing the snow around it some & eventually had to lift the rear end of the truck up to gain enough tractor traction!   all done when wind was blowing about 30 MPH and 10 degrees out

Mark

[Captain]

If Frank is using 1 can of R12 a year, he'll use 6 cans of R134a a year if he retrofits.  Molecule size is much smaller.....more loss in a leak.

Frank, I may have a few cans of R12 around if I dig a bit.

Captain

[sawdust]

I was reading somewhere about refrigerants, they were suggesting that isobutane is a better choice. Local gasplants use it as a refrigerant in their big coolers. It will change to a liquid at a lower pressure.

dc

[James P.]

 Frank, I was just searching similar question on web. I have a dryline kiln unit model DL 20 .made in Canada that uses R 22 . I bought it 10 years ago and last summer went to run it . Everything came on. No cooling to the dehumidifier. I use liguid propane for my forklift so. I tried it. No weighing Just took clear hose and removed shraeder valve . Turned compressor on and charged until I saw icing on high pressure . It worked I recently tried it. Empty again. So I have a leak. When I fix that I will give it another try. This time with gauges and weighing of propane. 1lb propane to 2 1/2 lbs of R-22. I figure It might blowup my kiln when I build it but I probably won't be in it.

[Gary_C]

Far as I know, R-22 is still readily available. It's the R-12 that is done. And you cannot use R-22 in an R-12 system because of the operating temperature ranges. That means the temperatures that vapors condense and vaporize are different and the system will not work as designed.

I would say it's extremely risky using propane in any refrigeration system as the vapor get superheated when compressed and could easily explode.

But you guys do what you want as I know you will anyway. Just don't blow her up where there is anyone else around. Oh wait a minute. You will be driving on public roads with that bomb. 

[Raider Bill]

I've got half a 30 lb can of r-12 in the shop. Drop by we'll filler up.

[bandmiller2]

Raider Billy I hope you have a Pinkerton man guarding that valuable can of juice.Thanks for the offer.Frank C.

[bandmiller2]

Gary how can it explode with no oxygen present,in an accident that small phart of propane won't amount to a row of peas compared to a tank of gas.thanks for your concern though Frank C.

[Reddog]

Not very often on a modern car does any gas leak in a wreck. DOT has very strict rules about that in crash testing.
But it does not take much of a hit to lose the charge in the air conditioning loop.
Or even if you get a leak while running, you have switched from and inert gas/liquid to a flammable one.

But you guys do what you want as I know you will anyway.

Thats what I have been thinking since this thread started.

To me if this was on a stationary industrial application. Fence it off and no big deal, try it.

[Aroostooksawyer]

If you have a small leak in your ac evaporator which is the interior of vehicle and car was parked for a few days , and you light up a cigar maybe an explosion.Read of many documented cases over the years especially when R-12 was being phased out and price was through the roof  .Propane is a big no no in  vehicle ac systems.

[PineNut]

When responding to vehicle fires, I have observed that about the only combustible that does not burn is the gasoline. Only time I have had trouble with gas burning was when there was a broken fuel line. With refrigerant lines in much more unprotected places in a vehicle, I would expect them to break and feed the fire if propane was in them.

[Gary_C]

Gary how can it explode with no oxygen present,in an accident that small phart of propane won't amount to a row of peas compared to a tank of gas.thanks for your concern though Frank C.

Here is everything you need to know about converting any refrigeration system to flammable refrigerants:

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc12alng.html

The EPA has said it is NOT legal and many states have enacted specific laws prohibiting the practice. The problem is that auto air conditioning were and are designed for non flammable refrigerants and are not safe for service technicans, passengers, and anyone nearby in a collision when flammable refrigerants are used. And the use of any flammable liquid or vapor in an air conditioning system violates every safety regulation for the storage of flammable liquids or vapors.

Yes, there are some that claim otherwise citing the presence of gasoline and other flammables present in an automobile and the use of flammable refrigerants in industrial systems, but none of those claims have been submitted to any testing authority for evaluation. And the gasoline storage system and the industrial refrigerant systems are specifically designed for the use of flammable liquids.

[Raider Bill]

How about the poor tech later on that's evacing the system smoking a cig not knowing there's propane in it?

[cheyenne]

Please remember Freon + Flame = Phosgene Gas = Death...So be careful........Cheyenne

[DouginUtah]

Did the change from R12 (or R22) to R134a occur during one specific year for all manufacturers?

I assume my 2002 Nissan Sentra would be R134a. Correct?

What about my '92 GMC?

[bandmiller2]

Doug,the change took place in the early 90's,my old lincoln a 93 was the last year they used R-12 I think it varied by manuf.It should say somewhere under the hood what it uses.If it has large fittings for quick hitch filling, its 134 if their small threaded with a tapered tip its R-12.Oh by the way the old Linc still has 12 .Frank C.

[pineywoods]

Just read an article that says GE is testing home freezers and fridges that use propane for the refrigerant. EPA approves. Claims it's more efficient than freon, bunches cheaper and doesn't trap heat in the atmosphere.   

[cheyenne]

Fridges with propane have been around for years. All your campers have them, there 3way, run off propane,electric or battery. The only problem for home use is a standing pilot. Insurance co's & fire codes. If they can conquer the standing pilot it might be a good thing.......The neat thing is if it ever quits just put it in the back of your pickup, upside down & take it for a long ride. Problem solved. Had one in my hunting camp that died & an old amish guy told me to do that. I thought he was nuts but I rode around for a week with that puppy in my truck & it's still working after 12 years. .....Cheyenne

[logwalker]

I don't think Pineywoods is referring to the energy source. It is the freon that is replaced with the propane. In the rv fridge they use a ammonia solution of some sort.

[Handy Andy]

  I've heard of guys putting propane in a r 12 air conditioner.  They say it works great.  Only problem is if you have a leak, and the chance of getting it on fire.